Author Topic: Greetings  (Read 1089 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2015, 11:15:57 AM »
At the cross Jesus showed us, "No greater love has a man thn this, than to lay down his life for a friend."

John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

Eating from the tree of life is living in the way of Jesus,

3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

All through the scriptures the tree of knowledge is the chaff/tare/goat

The tree of life is the humility of Christ laying down his life, those who eat the fruit of the tree of life, enter aionian zoe(eternal life).

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

As we break that bread, we become one.......

"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life"

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 11:25:58 AM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2015, 04:25:00 PM »
the cross and the tree of life are the same thing ;o)

Yep.  I usually resolve things forward to the cross, since Paul said that he chose to know nothing but Christ and him crucified, and that the preaching of the cross was foolishness to those who are perishing.


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2015, 11:00:58 PM »
Thats a good resolve :o)

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline rosered

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2015, 01:34:20 PM »


  Hi Bob !!     
  Enjoying your posts!!    :dsunny:
   MUCH BLESSINGS !!!  Rose  :icon_flower:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2015, 11:04:05 PM »
Ok.... I've been hanging around a while, and tried not to be too much of a heretic.  This is one of the most civilized forums on the net, and I appreciate it.

Although I am not posting a bunch, I am attempting to understand.  I am not yet connected because we think in different wavelengths  ;)

I shared the Mustard seed as a demonstration of how different of a conclusion the Hebrew hermeneutic can provide from the Greek one.

I follow the reasoning for UR. The reason I don't find them satisfactory is not in the arguments, but in the Greek logic and rhetoric. The Greek methods do not produce truth. They pit one opinion against another and the result is a battle of wits using Greek rhetorical invention and persuasion. The one who is most persuasive wins, and since people have differing opinions on who is most persuasive, the issue is not resolved.

Many of the answers here impose a framework theology on individual questions, where the framework is the answer.  This is no different from form the non-UR folks who simply impose a different framework theology.  It is very difficult to not do so.  The practice defines the issue away, without answering it. It is a convenient way to solidify one's own position, as a triage for real issues for the individual.

I do it with many of the skeptic questions and many of the apparent contradictions. Yeshua is not Emmanuel, how does it fulfill prophecy?  I brush it aside because I know the answer, it is not an issue to me. But saying to someone else, you just don't understand Hebrew, doesn't really answer the question for them.  Or worse, as they say in the Monte Python skit, "Contradiction is not argument... Yes it is... No it isn't".  ;)

So I am concluding that I must collect and classify the scriptures so that I understand what they all say.

These are things that I am fairly certain of (my framework theology):
1. God created because it pleased him. I do not accept the Augustinian God who has no passion.
2. We live in quantum Time. There is no past and no future. There is only now.  There is not a me who exists in some future moment of time requiring twice the mass I currently have laid claim to.
3. Since there is no future, there is no future to know. God knows his purposes and will accomplish them. This is the basis for free will.
4. God chooses to not be omniscient. Omniscience is a construct of Greek logic. God chooses to forget my sin. He may choose to not know my choices, and so take delight when I worship him.  The incarnate Son chose to 'close his eyes' to the divine nature. In this he did not cease to be God, but simply chose not to use the attributes uniquely belonging to God, in the same fashion that we do not become blind when we close our eyes.  God's sovereignty trumps Augustinian logic.
5. God has a triune nature. The best analogy I know (where all analogies fall short) is that of a checkerboard. The Father is the black squares (the water מי which includes the Father מ and his purposes י) , the Son is the white squares (the water ים which includes the Son ם and his purposes י), and the Spirit as the lines between the spaces, as the Spirit hovering over the face of the waters (the word heaven שמים represents the Spirit ש hovering over the face of the waters מים).  This is why you see no creation of the waters; they represent the self-existent Father-Son. Getting off topic... sorry.

These things are discerned using the hermeneutic, and are the basis for my reasoning:

1. When there are two things, they are two aspects of one thing. Things thought to be redundant, are two aspects of one thing.
2. When there is an apparent contradiction, it is a riddle.
3. God invented the strokes, letters, gates, roots, and words of Hebrew and they all have metaphor that intermingle.
4. All of the Old Testament has a spiritual layer speaking of Christ. The literal-historical methods abuse the purpose of God in revealing himself through the Son. The purpose is to make God known, and the historical figures are true history but of secondary importance.
5. The Gospels are a reliable record of the testimonies of the disciples of how they understood Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. They show evidence of learning from study over time. Not that there are errors to be corrected, but that they had a deeper understanding of the mystery over time.
6. The letters are reliable guidance to the church by those who were given authority by Jesus to guide the church, and the doctrine is derived from the teaching of Jesus which is consistent with the teaching of the mystery which was hidden from the beginning.
7. The Book of Revelation is a recapitulation of the story of the cross, but done using the metaphor defined in the OT rather than historical figures as is prominent in the OT.

Current thoughts on UR:
1. I easily dismiss verses with two things as being not relevant to the topic. I am a sheep and a goat. I am a wheat and a tare. I cry with Paul "Who will deliver me from this body of sin and death!"  The two in the field is one person who leaves a body behind, etc.
2. Things which are used to symbolize judgement, separate the flesh from the spirit: water(the word) destroys and gives life, fire burns up and purifies, etc.
3. The motif of the first shall be last and the last shall be first is expressed by the sub-motifs of the "First and Second Son",  "Death and resurrection",  "Desolate woman". 
4. There are two sets of 'heaven and earth'. This suggests that they are simultaneous aspects of one set of heaven and earth.  Initially it appears that it violates the simultaneous expression of two aspects of one thing, but many of the expressions are sequential... so maybe not.
5. The use of 'all' means all. The use of 'many' , intentionally does not use all.
6. If UR is taught in the New Testament, it is taught in the OT because Jesus only said and did what he saw His Father doing.  The disciples learned from Jesus and the OT with the help of the Holy Ghost.

 Questions from symbols:
1. The field is the harvest. The Jews are inside the circumcision (the first harvest) and the gentiles are the corners of the second harvest. Is there any mention of anyone that is outside the field?
2. The sea/waters represents God's purpose, as revealed in his word, and worked out in his creation. The harvest is done by the net and the fishermen.  What do not get harvested and what are thrown back?
3. Is kneeling worship or forced submission?
4. Is there a class of people, who essentially are all goat, and have no sheep in them? Does this reconcile with everything else? Is Annihilation an answer?
5. Since the time of the cross was the judgement of mankind, which Christ bore, and God chooses to not know our choices, it would appear that he had to die for all, and there is no second judgement, since "It is finished".

That is an open presentation of where I am and somewhat of how I got there.  So now I must enumerate all the scriptures pertaining to the subject, classify them as being answered by the framework, the metaphor or yet to be determined.

I am currently in the process of defining the boundaries of the various vignettes of Christ in the OT, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I do not see condemnation in the hidden layer.  It is wrestling with decades of teaching from the literal that is my issue.  I made an attempt to address the issues Gary posted, but found I was unable to participate because the thought process is so different. 

Offline Tom

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2015, 12:19:58 AM »
I understand about "there is only now," but I think time is something God created with space. And that gives us the perception of past and future, but I sometimes wonder how we'll perceive time, maybe just truly in the present, when we're immortalized because there will be no death or corruption which seems to have something to do with us perceiving time the way we do. Death is ever getting closer, and, as you get older, times seems to go faster. It's all a matter of perception that can even be altered through various means. Even our perception of space can be altered, but I think we'll perceive both differently when we're immortalized. If we can be snatched away into the air to the celestial realm, I think even matter will be perceived differently which actually is just space, which you can see if you've got a powerful enough microscope.

I no longer believe in the concept of "free will" for anybody except God even though we make choices in our life.

I think God is "omniscient" and omnipotent.

I don't believe "God chooses to forget my sin." I think I'm justified through Jesus Christ's faith.

I don't think "The incarnate Son chose to 'close his eyes' to the divine nature." I think he simply emptied himself "taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity."

I think to say "he did not cease to be God" is a loaded statement because Jesus said the Father is his God. The word "God" can be interpreted various ways. Even Satan is said to be "the god of this eon."

I really don't care about "Augustinian logic" or that of any of the so called church fathers.

I don't believe "God has a triune nature." Scripture says God is one Lord. The trinity is just church doctrine that's a remnant of the political expediency of the Roman Empire. Yahweh was never said to be a "triune" god in the Hebrew Scriptures, and he was never said to be a "triune" god in the Greek scriptures either. I believe the Father, Yahweh Elohim, is the source of all. Yeshua HaMashiach, commonly called Jesus Christ, is the word of God, the only-begotten son of God, and the image of God. The holy spirit is simply the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, inspired the authors of the ancient scriptures, and lives in us believers.

I know there is much fondness for the Hebrew scriptures and culture, but I think God intentionally chose the Greek language to spread the evangel to all the nations at the time. I don't think Greek philosophy or mythology diminishes the Greek scriptures even though both are applied by the church to distort the evangel.

I think the "sheep" and "goat" applies to live nations and how they treated Israel at the judgment that will come a thousand years before dead individuals are raised and judged at the great white throne.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I don't think there is a "Holy Ghost" because I think that's simply an inaccurate translation for "holy spirit" which is just the power of God.

There are various figurative interpretations of many things in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Some see things more literally than figuratively though.

I think "kneeling is worship," and "forced submission" isn't necessarily a bad thing if you realize that love is the most powerful force in the universe, and experiencing submission by the love of God is something that's good and will happen to all eventually.

Annihilation is not the answer. It is simply a misconception. I think, even when the word "destroy" is used in scripture, it is not meant to be thought of as a permanent condition because other scripture makes it clear that all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross; God is the savior of all mankind; and God will be all in all. 

I think the answer is not to forsake the literal for the figurative, but to know their purpose and place and be enlightened by both.

Everything in this post is just my perspective about what I've read in yours. I intend no offense, and I claim no authority. I also recognize no authority but God as we read in the word of God even though I realize everybody has a different interpretation.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 12:26:33 AM by Tom »

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2015, 01:03:35 AM »
Thanks Tom. No offense taken. The reason I shared them was to set a context for my beliefs and questions. Each of those things could be discussed individually, but this is not the forum for it. But it demonstrates quite graphically why most forums are so nasty. No one spends time to learn the context of the question, nor hear the context of the answer.

Am am looking for answers in the context of what I believe I know. So there are certain things that you and I cannot discuss until we came to an agreement on a context for the q&A, otherwise we'd just talk past each other.  There are some things we could have fruitful discussions about.

I don't believe today what I believed 20 years ago, it's called learning, not heresy  ;)

Offline Psalm91:4

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2015, 01:41:50 AM »
RE:   Number 3 about forced worship

 Every knee bow, every
tongue acclaim Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father...etc

 That word acclaim means a joyful/thankful praise as it is used in the NT.  A happy thing!    :)  so even if it is forced..lol,  which I don't think it is in a negative way....I'm OK with the Lord forcing us into being so filled with thankfulness and truth till we all acclaim Jesus is Lord!   :banana:

 I'll try to get a link to a study on it
"My idea of God is not a divine idea. It has to be
shattered time after time. He shatters it Himself. He is the great iconoclast. Could we not almost say that this shattering is one of the marks of His presence? The Incarnation is the supreme example; it leaves all previous ideas of the Messiah in ruins. And most are 'offended' by the iconoclasm; and blessed are those who are not."
-C.S. Lewis from his book  ---A Grief Observed---

Offline Tom

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2015, 02:03:29 AM »
I agree Sue. Pig, I think we all come here to share our various perspectives, and I have some beliefs that others on the forum here regularly disagree with. I don't worry about that. I just say what I believe and why, and I try to always keep an open mind. My beliefs have also changed over the years. That's how I wound up here. I think I understand where you're coming from, but I just see some things differently as a result of my own life experience. You seem to be oriented more toward the Hebrew scriptures. You should find some folks here that will enjoy sharing that with you. I consider heresy a joke because the charge comes from the institution that itself is not conforming to the word of God. So I'm glad to be a happy heretic. I've seen some of those "nasty" discussions on other forums and even on this one. At least this one doesn't get on your case when you discuss universal reconciliation. It's open for discussion on most topics relating to scripture though. So I wouldn't hesitate to bring something up if it's on your mind. You'll probably find folks to agree and disagree with you no matter what you say just as happens with me regularly. But that's what forums are all about. It seems like most folks here have their minds made up about most things, but that's nothing different than the real world. I don't think it's a reason to be discouraged about expressing your own opinion about things. Like you say, it's all about "learning," even if it's just learning what your brothers and sisters believe, though that may not provide any new information to you that you weren't already aware of before. I think it's about communication. We're all one in the ecclesia, the body of Christ. So I think we ought to communicate once in awhile. It's good to do some studying by yourself sometimes, but it's also good to share holy spirit with your brothers and sisters sometimes. I think that's why we come here, and you won't usually hear anybody telling you you're going to the church version of "hell" here because that's something most folks know here know is a lie.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2015, 02:46:26 AM »
 :cloud9: Pig I can already see your name does not suit you at all.

You said, "One of the strange things I do is assume that the NT authors, and Jesus, spoke and thought in Hebrew. I often translate the Greek to Hebrew in order to better correlate it to the OT."

Father had me start doing that 29 years ago, so I consider that a good assumption and not strange at all. We've discussed that on here before and in recent years, some evidence has been unearthed by scholars to prove at least "part" of the NT was written in Hebrew.

But as I'm sure you've found, doing what you're doing tracing it back, you can soon see that Hebrew thoughts run from Genesis to Revelation unbroken, like a thread in a tapestry. That's what convinced me it had to have all been written in Hebrew originally. Line up line you can see it as readily, especially since the Greek philosophy has done a great job of obscuring it, but once you see precepts it's as visible as a diamond in a bed of coal.

Once again, welcome to the board, looking forward to your 7 layers.   :banana:  Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2015, 03:27:57 AM »
Once again, welcome to the board, looking forward to your 7 layers.   :banana:  Blessings....

Thanks for the welcome. I will probably not get into the layers and voices except incidentally since that is not the express purpose of this forum.  For several years I have done brain dumps into personal wiki to help with correlating the explosion of Christ in scripture. It was not really intended for public consumption. But recently I saw that I have more than 1400 people spending more than an hour per session trying to wade through it, that I decided I would attempt to make it more user friendly. I added a forum last week for those who wish to discuss the Hebrew hermeneutic and see the vignettes (or shadows as the author of Hebrews calls them) of Christ in the OT.  I may steal some of the intro stuff from here in an attempt to maintain a polite atmosphere.  Its already a pain just keeping spam bots out.

I am not relishing the idea of having to maintain a forum, but I have been booted from so many for the heresy seeing Christ in the OT that I have to do something to have conversations.

I also have a Facebook group.  I have no intention ever of running ads or making money. It is preaching the cross in my mind, and I received that freely. 

I'm not advertising.. just explaining why I may not go into great detail here.  ;)

Offline Dandelion

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2015, 03:43:19 AM »
Welcome, Bob.

Your premise sounds very interesting, and I look forward to many discussions with you, and to learn more of your perspective.

I am very new here, myself. This seems to be a very welcoming place. I hope you find a home here, with us.

Be blessed. :welcome:
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.…

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2015, 03:50:58 AM »
Thanks again, but now you guys are setting a snare  ;)

One of the things that makes Tentmaker unique is it's targeted focus on UR.  I can talk for days and speak of nothing but Christ and him crucified from the OT, and I am happy to do so. But it is my sincere desire to stick to the purpose of the forum, and give no cause for offense.

So I will be happy to share things that relate to UR, and respond to questions if further explanation is required, but stop tempting me..... pleeeeease  ;)

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2015, 11:49:12 AM »
 :cloud9: I totally understand. The Lord put me in the OT from the get go, and all I could see was Christ. Way back then, every time I tried to share I got told to get out of the OT, there's no life in it, or the OT is just history. They thought I was nuts for seeing it, and I thought they were nuts for NOT seeing it. Stand off. I kept studying it and I kept seeing it. Still am after all these years, new stuff all the time. It's endless.

So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here.  :thumbsup: Thanks....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2015, 12:26:40 PM »


It  helps also,,, that the bible plainly says,,,,  The whole book is about HIM   ..  This  being an excellent witness ...
 
 …6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. 7 Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."…

Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, my God.'" First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"

—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will."(O) He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy(P) through the sacrifice of the body(Q) of Jesus Christ once for all.



Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Psalm 40:8
I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart."
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2015, 03:57:09 PM »
So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here.  :thumbsup: Thanks....
http://sensusplenior.net/wiki/Main_Page

Offline Tom

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2015, 05:37:16 PM »
I understand the interest in the Hebrew scriptures, and I think they foreshadow Christ. I think something that wasn't revealed in them was the secret Paul revealed in the Greek scriptures.

"On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations--since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you, for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation. To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2015, 07:52:34 PM »
I am finding all Paul's secrets hidden in the OT.

Offline rosered

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2015, 08:06:38 PM »
I am finding all Paul's secrets hidden in the OT.

  You mean you also found the   testimony of Jesus Christ being the "spirit of prophecy "       :dsunny:
 
 yay!!!      many fail to see it ....
  the SPIRIT OF CHRIST   was in them all        they spoke   all this prophecy   by the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH WITNESS  resting on them refreshing them ..
 
  water in the dessert    the waters of life freely ..      "And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." – 1 Cor 10:4
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2015, 08:24:01 PM »
So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here.  :thumbsup: Thanks....
http://sensusplenior.net/wiki/Main_Page
I understand the interest in the Hebrew scriptures, and I think they foreshadow Christ. I think something that wasn't revealed in them was the secret Paul revealed in the Greek scriptures.

"On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations--since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you, for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation. To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)

Paul is the householder who serves the Old and the New.
Mt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.

The Bereans checked what Paul said against the OT, so the OT must contain his teaching.   
Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Offline Tom

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2015, 09:26:43 PM »
"for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser" (Ephesians 3:3-7)

Offline Pig

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2015, 11:40:52 PM »
There is no contradiction here:

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Since I am finding the mystery hidden in the OT, the revelation of Christ to Paul made the light switch go on so that he could see it too.  The Bereans would not have believed him unless the light switch went on for them as well. They validated Paul against the scriptures.  If he had a brand new secret to tell, he would have been cast out as a Gnostic.

google "sensus plenior keys to the kingdom" for some more extensive discussion.  ;)


Offline Tom

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #47 on: Today at 01:33:22 AM »
Did you ever consider that the secret revealed in Ephesians happened after the visit to Berea in Acts? What makes you so sure Paul would have been cast out as a Gnostic anyway? Why do you think Paul said the secret in Ephesians was unknown before if it was, as you say, known in the Hebrew scriptures? Paul seemed to be well educated on the content of the Hebrew scriptures. So it seems that he wouldn't have claimed to be revealing something new if he knew it was in the Hebrew scriptures because he would have known that anybody familiar with them would have been able to find it in there.