I am a new member

[tinali]

Hi:

I am a new member. This is my first post in order to access all information on the forum.

I am new to the concept of "no hell" and "universalism" and I am shocked. I will need time to digest all thoese new information. I read an artice "the doctrine of hell terrorizes" few days ago. I am so surprised that I accepted the "hell" concepts so easily and I did not have any any "conflicting" challgnes likes those people who wrote the testimonies in this article. I began to wonder "what is wrong with me" and "what is wrong all those peopl in the church"? How come I never questions the concept of "external tornment"? I check with few people in the church and of course I hear the same old things about "God's jutice" and "Man's free will". I am totally confused now.

Tina

[pneuma]

Hi Tina welcome to the board, feel free to jump into any convo and ask questions.

I know it a little confusing at first Tina, but your here now so God must have something in mind in bringing you here.

God bless

[jabcat]

Hi Tina.  Welcome here.  I grew up with "hell" all my life, fundamentalism multiplied.  When God showed me ultimate reconciliation, it rocked my world...what a relief.  Believe me, even though I began to believe it and desperately wanted to believe it, for awhile I sort of went back and forth, because it was so new, such a revelation.  I've been believing UR for over a year now, and it has become not only more real, but also now makes more sense and I can much more easily see it in the very same scriptures I used to read and either pass over or make fit my previous "hell" beliefs.  One little nugget I was thinking of last night.  I told my dad, one reason I believe in ultimate reconciliation is, for God to set certain people/beings aside to play a certain role in His plan that He needed them to play...such as Satan, Judas, Herod...then to just say to them sorry, you've served your purpose, you never had a chance...I don't believe God would do that without having a bigger plan to fix it all in the end.

I have read and studied a lot about UR over this past year, and if you will PM me I will send you a brief summary of what God has led me to believe/see about Him and His plan.  Like everyone else, I'm still learning, but I think it may help you.  Also, devour the things Gary Amirault has on the main TM page.  I may catch some heat for saying this, but to try to help you, I feel I need to say it..in my own personal opinion, it may help you to spend some time here, however, as someone with a fresh revelation you may benefit more from reading Gary's teachings for awhile.  Even though most on the discussion board do believe in UR, right now there are a lot of divergent opinions about some important issues for which you may be a little more ready after you're a bit more grounded.  Again, my personal opinion is, I think you'll initially find more solid grounding information on the Main Page...God's blessing, James.

[shibboleth]

I think you gave her some good advice, Jabcat. I didn't even know there were forums until I'd been a Universalist for over a year or so. Tinali, you might want to start a thread with questions about UR or you may find someone you can relate to and PM them about your concerns. I hope and pray God clears up your understanding about all you are confused about. 

[jabcat]

Thanks Shib...I actually was going in to "soften" that a bit when I saw your reply...I sort of feel bad saying it, but I truly believe it, so I guess I'll live with the consequences.  Me too, it was 8-10 months before I started seeing so many different opinions within UR circles and I really think it was a good thing that was the case.  Tina...main thing...Jesus, Savior of the world...

[Pierac]

Hi Tina,   

  to the Tent!

Give yourself time to process it all. Take a few months and read the articles on the main site, then you will start to see God's love through out the scriptures for all men!

Paul

[97531]

Hi Tina

to the forum.

I concur with all the above.

Blessings

[Dreamer]

Welcome, Tina.   

Just read and let God show you.  He'll show you things that you already knew or wished were true but were afraid to verbalize. 

[tinali]

Thanks all for the encouragements and shared wisdoms.

I am a Chinese and English is not my first language. Therefore, you may have to work harder to figure out what I really want to express in my writing.

I sent an email last Monday to the bible study leader regarding "no hell" and "universalism" because they are studying the "Revelation" right now. I want to go to this bible study to see what will it teach about the "lake of the fire, etc". When I went to the meeting yesterday lunch time, he put a "recommended book" on the white board and told me this book will be good for me (and everyone) based on our email communication. The book title is "blessing and curses" from Derek Prince. Then he talked about "Deuteronomy" Chapter 28 about the obedience to God.

I could not figure out the relationship between this "blessing and curses" and "no hell" and "universalism". The only thing come to my mind is that he thinks I am out of the line right now and straight to the "cult" teaching. And he wants to warn me about the "curses" from involving the "cult" teaching.

However, at the same meeting, a woman shared that God puts an impression on her that we should ask God's forgiveness for our past father in Christianity regarding some of their false teachings and the negative impacts upon many generations down the road.

Then, we went into a little sharing about the family and generation curses passed from our ancestors and how we need to break down the curses and receive the healing and blessing from God.

Well, now, I am totally overwhelmed and frustrated. I don't know how to sort through all those information. I really don't know how much trust I can put on all those teachings that I have followed for many years.

I begin to doubt whether there is such thing about "blessing and curses" and "generation curses" etc. Is there such a thing about "speaking in tong", "power of Hole Spirit", "prophecy", "five fold ministries" etc.

I became a Christian through a Charismatic movement at its late stage (till 1989). I left this church in MI and went to various independent Chinese church at PA and MD. However, I still maintain and keep my associations and knowledge with "spirit-filled" Christian bodies. I could not deny the "super power" experiences that I personally had and the experiences from some people's testimonies. However, I am having "reservations" about all those "spirit-filled" teachings because all the negative attitudes from the mainstream churches and my own "independent" Chinese churches. In other words, I always want to "validate" the teachings and testimonies.

Last night, I finally figure out why God bring me to this concept of "no hell" and "universalism" and why he allows me to become a Christian through these "spirit-filled" teachings and experiences.

I know I always have problem believe God's "unconditional love". I know the primary reasons that I became a Christian is that I accept Father's authority in creation. Being a Chinese, I have a strong tendency obeying the authority over me. I accept His justice shown in OT and I have strong fear about the "hell" and "eternal punishments". I pay more attentions to the conditions in NT that will cut me off from the Kingdom of God if I do certain wrong things. I tried all the formulas that if your do these things and you will get those results, such as if you tithe, God will reward you. If you pray hard, you will get what you ask for. And, of course, I know very well all those bible verses that God will lead you through the death valley to let you die your flesh. I firmly believe Christian life is a path of suffering so that we will be purified to become His images.

Let me make it clear. It is ME personally focus on all those aspects of teachings based on my own perceptions and personality. I just don't like those teaching about God's love and I don't let it soaked into my heart. All my focus is how I can please God and reap the rewards at the end of my life. I am very "goal and performance oriented". I consider myself a very "radical" Christian in my early Christian life.

However, God allows things happening in my life that I could not maintain the "radical" Christian status any more. HE arranges my life to such points that I just could get things done the way I want. Out of long-term frustrations, I begin to see that God does not want me to be a "radical" Christian the way I planned to be. Instead, HE puts me aside and wants me to become one of "non-radical" Christians that I did not appreciate in my "radial" year.

My frustrations about life really makes me wanting to kill myself many times. However, the teaching of "hell" prevent me doing so. I am afraid of the "eternal hell" if I kill myself. Sometime, I begin to wonder "is there really a GOD?". Maybe God really does not exist and I just fool myself all those years by following all those church teachings?  However, some of those "super" spirit experiences put "fear" on me because I really could not deny there are something "super" beyond my knowledge.

So, the conclusion is that my entire Christian life is built on the "fear" of God and the fear of "hell". It is this fear of "hell" prevents me from killing myself to this point.
When I realize there is a "new" teaching about "no hell". Can you believe what is my "immediate" response? My first thought is "Well, I may consider killing myself to end all my frustrations about life since I don't need to worry about hell any more".

It is just that I have a little old boy and I don't want to leave him for someone to care for. I know I am the best mom to take care of him and I know God gives me this boy to raise for a special purpose even though I don't why HE uses me (a rotten vessel??).

Now, it is my "strong" sense of responsibility that prevent me from "killing" myself since I don't have fear of "hell" any more. Also, I begin to correct my son about the "hell" teachings that he receives from his children Sunday School. I guess that's the main reason that God leads me to this concept of "no hell" and "universalism" so that I can correct the false teaching passed to him.

I know I am one of the very few Chinese woman who has the courage to "explore" any teachings outside the traditional mainstream Churches. I am the type person that will explore new concepts as long as it makes sense to me. I think God has a mission for me to pass all the learning that I acquire in my life to my son. I guess my mission field is to my little boy.

Well, that's all I can share so far regarding this new acquired teaching of "no hell" and "universalism".   Please pray for me to open to God's love. I guess only "Holy Spirit" can break my "blindness" to God's love.
 
Thanks,
Tina

[shibboleth]

My frustrations about life really makes me wanting to kill myself many times. However, the teaching of "hell" prevent me doing so. I am afraid of the "eternal hell" if I kill myself. Sometime, I begin to wonder "is there really a GOD?". Maybe God really does not exist and I just fool myself all those years by following all those church teachings?  However, some of those "super" spirit experiences put "fear" on me because I really could not deny there are something "super" beyond my knowledge.

I, too, was burdened with thoughts of killing myself when I believed in hellfire. I was suicidal and depressed much of my life. But, after God revealed Himself to me as a Savior who loves all Hs creation, I only had one bout of depression in over 4 years!! He did it for me and He can do it for you. You are now wandering through the valley of the shadow of darkness and things look a litle blurry to you right now. But, in Gods timing, He will reveal more and more to you and you will grow to love Him as He loves you.

So, the conclusion is that my entire Christian life is built on the "fear" of God and the fear of "hell". It is this fear of "hell" prevents me from killing myself to this point.
When I realize there is a "new" teaching about "no hell". Can you believe what is my "immediate" response? My first thought is "Well, I may consider killing myself to end all my frustrations about life since I don't need to worry about hell any more".

Yes, that's why I didn't kill myself...I was afraid of hellfire. But, slowly over a 4 month period God brought me out of my darkness and despair to show me His glorious light and love. I pray God will show you His light as He has so many of us. Die you know more people kill themselves because of the hellfire doctrine than those who kill themselves because of UR?

It is just that I have a little old boy and I don't want to leave him for someone to care for. I know I am the best mom to take care of him and I know God gives me this boy to raise for a special purpose even though I don't why HE uses me (a rotten vessel??).
How old is your boy? God gave you your little boy because He wanted you to be his mother. Noone else can do that for him. PM me if you need to talk sometimes. I'm a pretty good listener.

[sparrow]

Hi Tina,
Thank you so much for sharing what you did. It's not easy to open up and your words really touched me. This life on earth is so short compared to eternity. Being here is a blessing. Please understand why I say that... We're here for a reason. Tina, your struggles are something that I think is inside of every human being. You are not alone. I used to contemplate suicide myself but was also scared of going to hell. When I began to see the truth that all are saved and God loves us more than we can imagine... my thoughts of suicide left me. Since I could see that God loves us.. it made me want to just do what I can to show others love and to put out a little bit of light in the world. Even if it's a tiny, teeny little bit of light, I feel like it's a honor to be able to try in my flaw-filled human ways to honor God by just trying to incorporate more love into my life. Not to gain any sort of rewards, but just because in my heart, I'm just so happy that we're all really going to be ok. That everyone is going to be filled with love eventually.  So for now, while going through this life... it's like a crazy adventure trying to keep your sights on what will be, while walking through this world of light and darkness.  And try to really learn about love, and learn about HOW to love. I began to see that this life with all of it's struggles and all of it's problems, and fears... but also all of it's high points and joys is a very unique experience. We are able to really compare LOVE with a LACK of LOVE and to see just how wonderful LOVE IS! and God IS Love. He isn't just loving He actually IS Love!

If we didn't go through this life... we would never TRULY be able to one day see just how amazing and powerful and beautiful and wonderful GOD really is. If you were born into heaven and all you knew was heaven and love...would you TRULY appreciate it? Your little boy needs you. You need each other. Hold his hand and walk through this adventure called life and realize that in all of your sorrows,  struggles and in all of your joys you are actually being outfitted with better eyes in which to see God. Just be YOU. and remember that God loves us all. Try to just lean back into Him and let his peace wash over you... There is no need for you to DO anything, just love. He just wants us to learn who HE is.... The more you focus on love, the more you are actually focusing on learning about God.


I always think that those who kill themselves, instantly regret it...because they realize that they cut short something they should have fully experienced. That life on earth is a gift. It may not SEEM like a gift oftentimes... but it really IS a gift, in my eyes. It's something we all have to walk through in order for us to really be able to understand who our Creator is. Every life lived is lived for a reason. I believe that ALL human beings, will benefit from everyone else's life on earth, in some way. I think we all have been put here to walk different paths. Tina, your path is important. Not only for your son, but I believe it's going to be important to everyone here on earth one day.... I think we will ALL learn lessons from each other on the other side. Don't cut your life short, friend. Your son needs you. God needs you and we ALL need you. You are special. There is only one you.

with lots of love,
sparrow
pm me anytime.

[tinali]

Thanks to those of you who have replied with comforting and loving words.

Thanks also to those of you who invite me to PM. My questions is "how to PM from this Forum?"

Sparrow and shibboleth both shared their experience about how God lifted them up with HIS love to remove their suicidal attempts. I am looking forward to the same experience with God. I felt I am not alone in this journey of life. Thanks again for the open sharings.

I will continue to dig deep into all those new concepts in order to know God more and deeper and have a renewed life in HIM.

Blessings to all of you. 

Tina

[shibboleth]

This is how you PM somebody. You click on the name of the person you want to Pm and you will go into their account....then you click the Send a message to this person and you write your message and push send. Hope that's enough information, but, if not just ask and I'll try to add whatever I left out.

[seeker56]

Hi Tina, I too have suffered from depression. In my first marriage my wife and I raised two daughters, and often times I felt overwhelmed with the financial responsibilities, and just trying to get them through their teen years and get their High School diploma. Both girls are doing well, despite the divorce, and upheavel that it caused in their formative years. But being a parent isn't easy. It's tough. I re-married and I have a stepson who will be graduating High School this spring. I'm thankful to the Lord that he has watched over me, and my family all these years. I've often thought that life was too hard, and almost unbearable too. You see when you become a Christian, your spiritual part of you comes alive. It was dead in trespasses and sins, but because of Christ, the new Adam, you are alive in your spirit, just as Adam and Eve were alive in their spirits prior to the fall. However, the old man that was there prior to the conversion left a big mess when he left, and it takes time for God and your spiritual man working together to get things going right. Jesus talked about the narrow way to salvation, unlike the broad way to destruction. Now Tina, when I was younger in the Pentecostal church, we had teaching about how the narrow way was a hard way. There would be a picture of this narrow path going up the side of a hill toward three crosses, and then a picture of a super highway leading to a cliff, that had pictures of Las Vegas, advertisements for cigarettes, alcohol etc. While this picture may be somewhat correct, there is something missing in the equation. Mainly it is the translation of the narrow way from the original Greek to English.  You are Chinese. I am part German. You know already how some words in English don't translate well into your native language. Same thing with English to German, and vise versa. In the Greek the narrow way refers to a narrow path that you follow between extremes. Some Christians think we should all take a vow of poverty, others think we are all supposed to be millionaires. The narrow path would be somewhere between these extremes. Jesus said that we are to build our foundation of our houses on rock. If we build on sand the house will fall. So there again you see we have the narrow way of building. You don't build a house that has a small foundation, and try to stack several floors of the house on top with the upper floors hanging out several feet over the foundation. The narrow way can be hard, however, it may be just narrow, being a christian sometimes isn't easy, but other times when I have experienced the joy of the Lord, it seemed really easy. We have an adversary who spends a lot of time and energy trying to destroy us. Don't listen to him. Jesus came to give us life, keep praying and reading scripture, and the Lord will accomplish his purposes in his time in you, and he will preserve you and protect you. Pray also that he sends the right people to you for encouragement as well. And always remember God is in control!

[jenna]

Welcome Tinali. I too, suffered from depression and was suicidal for a long while. I was thinking one day about the least painful way to end it all when a stranger came up to me and said that God told him to tell me "Don't do it. God loves you and doesn't want this for you". Keep in mind this was someone who I had never met before, so it really blew me away. God truly does work in mysterious ways.

[tinali]

I have a question about PM. When I click on people's name on the left side of the message, I receive this error message : " Many apologies, but you can't view just any profile".

Does it mean that Administrator or someone else need to give me a "special privilege" to PM when click on their names?

However, I don't know where to find this Administrator. Pleas help.

Thanks,
Tina

[pneuma]

I have a question about PM. When I click on people's name on the left side of the message, I receive this error message : " Many apologies, but you can't view just any profile".

Does it mean that Administrator or someone else need to give me a "special privilege" to PM when click on their names?

However, I don't know where to find this Administrator. Pleas help.

Thanks,
Tina

Hi Tina, I think you have to have at least 25 posts before you can use pms, at least thats the way it was because we kept getting attacked with spam, it was just a way of stopping that.

God bless

[tinali]

Thanks to those of you who have replied so far to my posts and questions.

SeekerSA told me that I need 5 posts in order to use PM. I did and now I can PM.

My fifth post is in "Christian Life" about non-UR questions (Revelation,etc.) and it was removed by an Admin because new rule is to only discuss UR. I am a little disappointed because book of Revelation has so many verses that make me believe in hell, judgment, eternal punishments, etc. When I was introduced to the new concept of "no hell" and "UR", me and my friends are concerning the conflicting teaching that we receive from UR and Revelations.

Since I am not allowed to ask questions on these areas. I have no choice but to turn to "Preston Eby" website to check out his articles. I did some research on Preston Eby and of course I found some negative comments about his writings. Before I found "tentmaker.org", I found "no hell" and "RU" from bible-truths.com that have many articles written by Ray Smith. I also found some articles by Preston Eby in that website too.

Can anyone comment on "Preston Eby"'s work?

I just print out many articles from Eby about "the Kingdom of God", "Revelation", "Antichrist", "Looking for His appearing". Very thick pile of papers. It will keep me busy for a long time. Well, now I have "too much" materials to study during my waiting time for my son's various activities.

Anyway, thanks again for all your support and sharing. Post you sometime in the near future.

Tina 

[Pierac]

Hi Tinali,

You can post questions on Revelations, just try to keep it U.R. related.  Ask away.....

Paul

[AJ]

Tina
 Welcome to the Tent…
Our Heavenly Father has you right where you are supposed to be.

Remember, it was only Peter who stepped out of the boat. The other 11 remained behind,… fixed in the boat of tradition.
The master has bid you to come out of the orthodox traditional thinking about 'hell'.

Walking on water…may seem wild / strange / and even a bit scary at first – like it did to Peter.  Remember,….only Keeping our (eyes on the master) is what will carry us above the storms of life.

Live in the 'NOW' of walking with God.
Both the past and the future are beyond our control. 
Don't look at the water, don't look at the storm, don't look back at the boat.

Heb 12:2 -
Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end. He did not give up because of the cross!
On the contrary, because of the joy that was waiting for him, he thought nothing of the disgrace of dying on the cross, and he is now seated at the right side of God's throne.


Peace, AJ

[jabcat]

Hi Tina.  I personally like J.P. Eby quite a bit.  He is a very strong proponent of UR.  Some may not like him because he believes all scripture are the inspired words of God, so teaches from that perspective.  I highly recommend him.  If you'll just take your time and absorb his writings, you may be highly blessed...he is quite deep and sometimes wordy, so take your time. Gary Amirault, owner of this site also uses the entire scripture in His teaching, so I recommend reading his material as well.

I have read both of their writings, and again, will be happy to correspond with you by PM about anything, including sending you the info I offered in my first post to you.  Take care,  God's blessing, James.

(Good post, AJ  ).

[AbbasChild]

Hi Tina,
welcome to this board. Let me just encourage you by saying you are right in the place where our Abba Father wants you. I also came into contact with the late charisamtic move and expecially with the teachings of Derek Prince.

Did you know that Derek Prince repented of his teachings concerning authority in the Discipleship/Shepherding sense. Also I had the privilege to meet him on one of his last public appearances and he testified about an experience of having an encounter with Father's Unconditional Love for the first time, which completley changed his life- after 50 years of being in the ministry.

One of Prince's friends in the Shepherding movement very strongly teaches now on Father's Unconditional Love and seems to have a tendency towards UR (if he does not already believe in it.) His name is Bob Mumford and he has written a book about Unconditional Love, called 'The Agape Road'.

All the supernatural things are real and they don't change or disappaer when someone comes to see UR. In fact I would have never got started on it if it wouldn't have been confirmed by 'spirit-filled' believers.

J Preston Eby is a good way to start if you come from this sort of background. Gary Amirault and his wife, here at Tentmaker also believe in the gifts etc.

You probably have enough stuff to study there, but if you need  more, I can give you some more links.

By the way, I read the 'blessings and curses' book and found that it is grossly misunderstood in my opinion. Jesus Christ has delivered us from all curses and if you have put your trust in Him you are free. Some believers don't know this and that's why they need to know it. But to use this teaching in the way it has been presented to you- maybe even in the book itself, for Prince was only a man- is quite abusive.

I've worked in the deliverance ministry for a while and this things are real. But can I tell you what I found to be the most powerul weapon against the demonic Its the Unconditional Love of our Abba Father. Some people who could never get free had an amazing breakthrough after their Abba Experience.

[tinali]

I probably should stop posting here and not to make this "new post" too long. I promise this will be my last post here. I will PM to some of you or post in other areas.

Yesterday,I read Eby's first part of "Antichrist". It is a very wordy article and I have to read it as if I am preparing for a test. His writing style on this article reminds me of some of the teaching from Watchman Lee. Have any one read any writing from Watchman Lee?

I read Watchman's writing when I just became a Christian. His teaching about "flash/spirit/mind", "die yourself"etc. had big influence on my Christian thinking at my Christian infant stage. I read his book in Chinese and I was saved in an American church. I just came to USA and my English was not fluent at that time. Therefore, I did not discuss Watchmen Lee's work with brothers and sisters in the Christ.


To make this long story short, I finally gave up reading his books because my spiritual reality could not keep up with my head knowledge by reading Watchman Lee's writings. I struggle too much with "dying myself" in order to earn God's "heavenly reward" and I constantly worries about not be able to be "in the kingdom of God" if I am not good enough. In other words, I don't believe in God's unconditional love but only focus on his "judgments" in the OT and in the "Revelation".

Watchman may teach about UR but I did not pay attention to it at that time. God has allowed certain conditions and events happening in my life for the last few years in order for me to be open to "UR".

I have not went to church for few months now even though I still take my son to his Children Sunday School. I just don't feel like listening to any sermons from the church at this time. I am always an outcast in my "traditional church life" because my believe in a "spirit-filled" teaching. Now, I am even an outcast from my associations with those followers of "spirit-filled" teachings because of these "UR", "no hell" etc.

I was a big outcast in my Chinese community when I became a Christen because I went to a "spirit-filled" American Christian group that was not approved by most of traditional Chinese Traditional Christian in the local area.

After I move to my cureent area, I still have hard time to mingle with "Chinese traditional church" and "American spirit-filled church" at the same time. Chinese churches that tried to adapt to "spirit-filled" teaching did not survive in my local area.

Even though I live in a big city and my life is full of people around me (I am a full-time working mom), my personal life seems like in a desert that is so remote from every one else. I know it is my own choice. I guess God let me into this condition to see whether I will turn to HIM. Let's see what will happen next.

Thanks again for all the encouragements, supports, and sharing. I will not continue this post. Will post somewhere or PM.

God bless.

Tina