Author Topic: First Post and Question on Preterists  (Read 1684 times)

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mrsocko

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First Post and Question on Preterists
« on: February 22, 2009, 06:00:13 AM »
New here. Wondering what you think of preterists? Are the prophecies in Revelations still to come or are were they completed in 70 A.D with the destruction of the temple and the Jewish nation?

Love to here your thoughts.

Zeek

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 06:25:44 AM »
New here. Wondering what you think of preterists? Are the prophecies in Revelations still to come or are were they completed in 70 A.D with the destruction of the temple and the Jewish nation?

Love to here your thoughts.

I think u will find a variety of views here, from full preterist, to partial preterist, to futurism, to a combination "is, was and will be". 

for me, I believe all was fulfilled in the first century AD but see a current "awakening" to who we are in this new world. 

and this process is a spiritual/inward awakening, that parallels the process of the literal fulfillment that occurred. 


martincisneros

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 06:46:42 AM »
Hi!  Welcome to Tentmaker's Forum!!

There's no official Christian Universalist perspective on Bible prophecy, if that's what you're asking.  We've got the Christian Universalist version of the Hal Lindsey types that are thinking "rapture," and not just "rapture," but "pretrib rapture," "literalized Cosmic Rambo Revelation 19 interpretation," etc.  And there's also preterists, partial preterists, Postmillenialists, etc., among us.  The New Testament did say a few things -- a few things minimally -- about what was about to happen with the destruction of the Jewish Temple, etc.  

Christian Universalism isn't effected in the least by Pretrib, Midtrib, Posttrib rapture scenarios, Premillenialism, Postmillenialism, Amillenialism, Charismatic or Cessationist considerations, etc., etc., etc.  Nothing related to the ages given over to judgment and the subduing of God's enemies [exclusively through the Gospel] has any baring on the Universal Restoration that's only finalized at the abdication of Christ in 1Corinthians 15:28 of Whom it's said in the 24th verse that He only reigns until all enemies are placed under His feet.  Absolutely all of the promises of both destruction and restoration must be fulfilled.  Many, many Christians are horribly confused about the difference in the Scriptures between the process and the outcome.

Without knowing more about you, I'm not sure if the following will be helpful, but just felt the Holy Spirit's leading to share this either for your benefit or for someone else that may be lurking and reading the public boards on this forum:

The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications... It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word.(From the preface of "THE GREEK WORD AION -- AIONIOS, TRANSLATED Everlasting -- Eternal IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION." Written by: REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON in 1875.)

Adding just a little bit more to this message from J. W. Hanson's book, just cited, for clarity on this subject, if this is the first time you've been presented this issue:

The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aion thus: "The life of man, the time of life."

At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.

Theodoret (A. D. 300-4--) "Aion is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."

John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aion. 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aion. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aion to come.'"

But in the sixteenth century Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted on the word. He says: "Aion, time, also life, also habit, or way of life. Aion is also the eternal and endless AS IT SEEMS TO THE THEOLOGIAN." Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it and his phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word.

Alluding to this definition, Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, said, "Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aion. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now. And the theologian will probably retain it there longer than any one else. Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aion uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological, Hebrew, or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy, if not subsequent to the age of the Apostles, so far as I can ascertain."

From the sixteenth century onward, the word has been defined as used to denote all lengths of duration from brief to endless.

Macknight: "These words being ambiguous, are always to be understood according to the nature and circumstances to which they are applied." He thinks the words sustain endless punishment, but adds: "At the same time I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, forever, eternal and everlasting, in other passages of Scripture, shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense, when applied to punishment, put no forced interpretation upon them."

But the Blessed Life has not been left dependent on so equivocal a word. The soul's immortal and happy existence is taught in the New Testament, by words that in the Bible are never applied to anything that is of limited duration. They are applied to God and the soul's happy existence only. These words are akataluton, imperishable; amarantos and amarantinos, unfading; aphtharto, immortal, incorruptible; and athanasian, immortality. Let us quote some of the passages in which these words occur:

Heb. vii:15, 16, "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest, who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless (akatalutos, imperishable) life." 1 Pet. i:3, 4, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, (aphtharton,) and undefiled, and that fadeth not (amaranton) away." 1 Pet. v:4, "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory thatfadeth not (amarantinos) away." 1 Tim. i:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, (aphtharto,) invisible, the only wise god, be honor and glory forever and ever, Amen." Rom. i:23, "And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man." 1 Cor. ix:25, "Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." 1 Cor. xv:51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (aphthartoi,) and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal must put on immortality (athanasian). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (athanasian,) then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Rom. ii:7, "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (aphtharsia,) eternal life." 1 Cor. xv:42, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption (aphtharsia)." See also verse 50, 2 Tim i:10, "Who brought life and immortality (aphtharsian) to light, through the gospel." 1 Tim. vi:16, "Who only hath immortality (athanasian)."

Now these words are applied to God and the soul's happiness. They are words that in the Bible are never applied to punishment, or to anything perishable. They would have been affixed to punishment had the Bible intended to teach endless punishment. And certainly they show the error of those who declare that the indefinite word aiónion is all the word, or the strongest word in the Bible declarative of the endlessness of the life beyond the grave. A little more study of the subject would prevent such reckless statements and would show that the happy, endless life does not depend at all on the pet word of the partialist critics.

martincisneros

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 06:47:32 AM »
There is but one Greek word beside aiónios rendered everlasting, and applied to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."

Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aiónios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aiónios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the aiónion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?

1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the aiónion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aiónios, indefinitely long.

2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aiónion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.

But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, he never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, he discipline, resulting in reformation. - end quote

Let me quote something briefly from a scholarly work by Thomas Allin, entitled "Christ Triumphant":

"Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration (in Scriptural usage) as its necessary, or at least it's ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise; 1 - How if it means an endless period can aion have a plural? 2 - How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occuring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite? 3 - How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond? - ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti. - See (Sept.) Ex. xv. 18; Dan xii. 3; Micah iv. 5. 4 - How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion? - S. Matt. xiii. 39-40-49; xxiv. 3; xxviii. 20; 1Cor. x. 11; Heb. ix. 26. 5 - Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g., S. Mark iv. 19; Acts iii. 21; Rom. xii. 2; 1Cor. i. 20, ii. 6, iii. 18, x. 11, &c., &c. But if an aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends on it's meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?" Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible. They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working." - end quote.

Ancient writings, other than the Scriptures, show how aion and aionios were used in the ordinary affairs of that time period. Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.

In 1Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years!

St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin ...all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, "eonian chastening ...but a period, not a thousand years." Or, as some translate the last clause: "but a period of a thousand years only." He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.

Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing.

Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.

Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?"

In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time.

In the Iliad and Odyssey Aión occurs thirteen times, as a noun, besides its occurrence as a participle in the sense of hearing, perceiving, understanding. Homer never uses it as signifying eternal duration. Priam to Hector says, "Thyself shall be deprived of pleasant aiónos" (life.) Andromache over dead Hector, "Husband thou hast perished from aiónos" (life or time.)

Pindar gives thirteen instances, such as "A long life produces the four virtues."(Ela de kai tessaras aretas ho makros aión.)

Sophocles nine times. "Endeavor to remain the same in mind as long as you live." Askei toiaute noun di aiónos menein. He also employs makraion five times, as long-enduring. The word long increases the force of aión, which would be impossible if it had the idea of eternity.

Hippocrates. "A human aión is a seven days matter."

Empedocles, An earthly body deprived of happy life, (aiónos.)

Euripides uses the word thirty-two times. I'll quote three instances: "Marriage to those mortals who are well situated is a happy aión." "Every aión of mortals is unstable." "A long aión has many things to say," etc.

From Andrew Jukes's "Restitution of all things" we read:

Every scholar knows that the expressions, "ages," "to the ages," "age of the ages," and "ages of the ages," are unlike anything which occurs in the heathen Greek writers. The reason is, that the inspired writers, and they alone, understood the mystery and purpose of the "ages." They, or at least the Spirit which spake by them, saw that there would be a succession of "ages," a certain number of which constituted another greater "age." It seems to me that when they simply intended a duration of many "ages," they wrote "to the ages." When they had in view a greater and more comprehensive "age," including in it many other subordinate "ages," they wrote "to the age of ages." When they intended the longer "age" alone, without regard to its constituent parts, they wrote "to an aeonial age"; this form of expression being a Hebraism, exactly equivalent to "age of the ages:" like "liberty of glory," for "glorious liberty," (Rom. viii. 21,) and "body of our vileness," for "our vile body." (Phil. iii. 21.) When they intended the several comprehensive "ages" collectively, they wrote "to the ages of ages." Each varying form is used with a distinct purpose and meaning. - end of quote.

And with regards to specific promises of the Regeneration of all things in the Scriptures that aren't translational issues:

The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and for those of the world. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series, clearly and closely linked together, claiming for Christ a saving empire co-extensive with the whole universe. The connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains, the same central idea; and thus forms a link in a continuous chain. This chain commences at Creation, when all things were created by Christ, Who, therefore, as St. Paul implies, reconciles(in fact, recreates) all things unto God(Colossians 1:15-20). Hence His work is the restitution of all things(Acts 3:21); He is Heir of all things(Hebrews 1:2); in Him all nations are to be blessed(Galatians 3:8); for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life(John 17:2); and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God(Luke 3:6). For God, Whose counsel is immutable(Hebrews 6:17), Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging(Luke 6:27-35), will have all men to be saved(ITimothy 2:4); and all to come to repentance(2 Peter 3:9); and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may shew mercy upon all(Romans 11:32); for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever(Romans 11:36); and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet(Ephesians 1:22). And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ(Ephesians 1:10); and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life(Romans 5:18). So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands(John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself(John 12:32). For having, as stated, received all things from the Father(John 3:35), all that was given come to Him; and He loses none(John 6:37-39); but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He find it(Luke 15:4); and so makes all things new(Revelation 21:5). And thus He comes in order that all men may believe(John 1:17); that the world, through Him, may be saved(John 3:17); His grace brings salvation to all men(Titus 2:11); for He takes away the sin of the world(John 1:29); gives His flesh for it's life(John 6:51); and, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance(Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world(John 6:33); is the light of the world(John 8:12); is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world(1John 2:2); is the Savior of all men(1Timothy 4:10); destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only(1John 3:8); abolishes death(2Timothy 1:10); is manifest to put away sin(Hebrews 9:26); and thus subduing all things unto Himself(Philippians 3:21; the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades(1Peter 3:19); of which He holds the keys(Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever(Hebrews 13:8); thus even the dead are evangelized(1Peter 4:6); Thus all are made alive in Him(1Corinthians 15:22); for Christ finishes, completes His work(John 17:4; 19:30): restores all things(Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse(Revelation 22:2-3); but every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him(Philippians 2:10); for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption(Romans 8:21); and every creature joins in the song of praise(Revelation 5:13), and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All(1Corinthians 15:24-28).

Offline peacemaker

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 07:54:10 AM »
The road to understanding is not always straight!

There is a curve, called failure. A loop, called confusion. Speed bumps, called friends. Red lights, called enemies.
Caution lights, called family. And you will have flats, called jobs. But, if you have a green light, called love.
A spare, called determination. An engine, called perseverance. Insurance, called faith. And a driver, called Jesus.
You will make it to a place, called Wisdom.
 :dbook: :Book:  :yes:
peacemaker

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 09:37:20 AM »
Welcome mrsocko  :welcome:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

mrsocko

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 10:13:37 PM »
"The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications"

If it can be shown that the hell refererences in the New Testament refer to Gehena and 70 A.D. and the Jewish apocalpse at that time rather then an eternal place of punishment, then you can show UR without even getting into the Aionian argument.

Anybody interested in this scenario?

martincisneros

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 12:10:05 AM »
Every Gehenna passage is a passage related to the consequences of false teachings, a wrong paradigm, and abuses of the tongue that set on fire the course of nature and bring about destruction upon one's self and one's disciples independent of any considerations of God having ended His dealings with the Jewish nation until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in.  The case for UR doesn't depend on the nature of what the punishments are.  The punishments could be the boiling of everyone in water, oil, fire, tar, lard, lava, melted plastic, emotions, spirits, psychic phenomenon, physical torture, etc. 

If they can be proven to be of limited duration in the Scriptures together with promises having been made that absolutely all would be made alive in Christ in the fullness of time when He's delivering up the Kingdom to the Father after He's subdued and subjected every enemy, then the case can be made, Biblically, for UR -- irrespective of whether or not Gehenna is the city dump of Jerusalem or the explosion of Mt. St. Helens in 1980.  The important question is whether or not God has an equally important purpose in damnation as in salvation, or if damnation of what's evil is but the prelude to recreating His Creation.  The promises of the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures are abundantly clear, along with the limited duration of punishment, irrespective of whether or not the punishment is remedial or genuine torture or being left in frozen yogurt for 50,000 years with a new ice age.

The nature of the punishment is irrelevant.  What counts is whether or not God has had a higher purpose than punishment, pruning, and desolation, and whether or not His Word brings clarity to the final outcome of each individual, or whether we're left with the Darwinian survival of the fittest doctrine of mainstream Christianity that only the fit survive.

Stopping at merely proving that Gehenna passages relate to the destruction of the Jewish nation in 70AD doesn't preclude the passages regarding judgment, destruction, punishment, pruning, economic ruin, and being cast out from being fulfilled in our day just because Gehenna is proven to have been a time word that was localized to the middle east.  Not every destruction, retribution, and casting out passage contains the word "Gehenna" in it and all of them must be answered.  If even one is left unanswered, then UR must remain a fleeting hope rather than foundational to the message of the Cross and Blood of Christ.  Thankfully, we're not left in the dark regarding all of God's promises of destruction and restoration. 

Absolutely every promise of both destruction and restoration will be fulfilled in the realm of time and history because Jesus Christ has conquered all things and the ministry of reconciliation and sanctification is ongoing through His miracle of oil and light to the present day through the Church.  The first fruits of redemption will bring about the holiness and obedience of all of the rest of Creation to the glory of God the Father.  Father has sworn it in Christ's precious Blood.  His peace for all through the Blood of His Cross can not fail to come to pass because it is a Blood Sworn Oath that God has taken.

Zeek

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 12:13:59 AM »
"The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications"

If it can be shown that the hell refererences in the New Testament refer to Gehena and 70 A.D. and the Jewish apocalpse at that time rather then an eternal place of punishment, then you can show UR without even getting into the Aionian argument.

Anybody interested in this scenario?

sure.  lets hear it

Offline CHB

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 12:23:07 AM »
"The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications"

If it can be shown that the hell refererences in the New Testament refer to Gehena and 70 A.D. and the Jewish apocalpse at that time rather then an eternal place of punishment, then you can show UR without even getting into the Aionian argument.

Anybody interested in this scenario?

Jesus probably had it right. I guess this could even apply to the word aion.

(Luke 16:31) And he said unto them, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

CHB

mrsocko

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 05:25:58 AM »
Gehenna is the garbage dump in the valley outside of Jerusalem that had fires which where never extinguished until the end of the Jewish age. The Romans dumped and burned the bodies of 600,000 Jews there in 70 A.D. This is the hell of the New Testament. The Gospels where written to the Jews as a warning to accept Jesus as Saviour before the coming judgement. Why does it have to be anymore complicated than that?

They did not accept him so the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles who would accept the message. The verses where Jesus and the apostles talk about the coming judgement all refer to the 70 A.D judgement of the Jews.

Every Gehenna passage is a passage related to the consequences of false teachings, a wrong paradigm, and abuses of the tongue that set on fire the course of nature and bring about destruction upon one's self and one's disciples independent of any considerations of God having ended His dealings with the Jewish nation until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in.

I am asking questions on a more historical basis than spiritual.

Martincisnoeros your replys are confusing. What I am wondering is - what do the end times look like from the Gentile perspective?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 05:58:33 AM by mrsocko »

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Re: First Post and Question on Preterists
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 09:17:52 AM »
Gehenna is the garbage dump in the valley outside of Jerusalem that had fires which where never extinguished until the end of the Jewish age. The Romans dumped and burned the bodies of 600,000 Jews there in 70 A.D. This is the hell of the New Testament. The Gospels where written to the Jews as a warning to accept Jesus as Saviour before the coming judgement. Why does it have to be anymore complicated than that?

They did not accept him so the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles who would accept the message. The verses were Jesus and the apostles talk about the coming judgement all refer to the 70 A.D judgement of the Jews.


I really see it a lot like this as well.  HOWEVER, I also am open to what Martin stated, that there may certainly be other spiritual applications as well.

As far as preterism, it runs the gamut in UR circles, just as it does in the ET paradigm.  No "official" stance.

Welcome, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23