First Post

[Zoe]

Hi Everybody!

I hope you can all read this. I have just joined the tentmaker discussion forum and I believe in the wonderful glorious truth of biblical universal salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is my passion to evangelise the world with this full good news which needs to be accomplished before the second coming of Jesus Christ. I live in the United Kingdom.

Regards to all

Zoe

 

[Taffy]

Welcome Zoe , another fellow Brit.


Taffy ,from Ross-on-Wye ,Glos

[WhiteWings]

GreetZzzz from a Dutchy

[Zoe]

Thank-you Taffy and Whitewings for your lovely welcome. My husband David Sulem and I both joined the tentmaker discussion forum today. David is familiar with being part of a discussion forum and I am a novice - but I am sure I'll get the hang of it soon enough. As David has already mentioned in his first post, we have written and published our book God's Plan for All, which is available online free of charge for all to read and we have also just published it in paperback hard copy, this month - this is also free of charge (apart from a small shipping fee) for all to order from our website www.godsplanforall.com

We are looking forward to getting in touch with others here in the UK as well as worldwide and we are hoping to start a local Bible Study group in our neighbourhood, once a week. This week we put out feelers and recruited four people who are interested. They already have copies of the book. We look forward to this as it is wonderful to be able to talk face to face with others about the wonderful truth of universal reconciliation.

Bye for now

Zoe

[WhiteWings]

Zoe/David,

Perhaps you can consider to make your book also availble as a downloadeble .pdf file.

[Zoe]

Hi Whitwings - thank you for your comment re pdf. David and I have spoken about it - the hard paperback copy was published for those people who find it hard to read a lot of text on a computer screen, and for those people without computers. Am I missing something - is there an additional advantage in having pdf format? 

[WhiteWings]

Zoe,

I to don't like reading much from screen.
But I like electronic format because it is easy to quote from in a forum/email. Just cut and paste.
And very important/nice/easy for me that there are all kind of ways to do searches in a electronic document.

/edit
.pdf or word documents can be searched. I think everyone is aware of that...
Same goes that everyone knows what Google is.
There is software, that I personally use, that acts exactly as Google on my own PC only.
If you have read some of my posts it will be clear that my Biblical understanding is shallow at best.
I do remember things. But without my PC I would still be manually searching for my first verse.
I'm now attending to Bible class. The teacher just knows that a certain verse is on page 789. I'm faaaaar from that.
So I use my 'personal Google' that also looks in your book when I'm making a certain search.

It's mearly a suggestion and not very important to me because I already have that book in .pdf format....
Adobe Acrobat can create a .pdf if give a URL.
The result looks very much like your website. Including links etc.
But I guess the layout of your book is a little diffrent.

Anyway I've put it here: http://qwerty777.fileave.com/Gods plan for all.pdf
Looking at it is easier than reading my explanation

[Paul Hazelwood]

Welcome Zoe

[Nathan]

Welcome to the club bro,
I checked out your book as well . . .I very much enjoyed many of your insigts on breaking down of the original definitions of hell and eternity and all of that.  You put it nicely and very clearly. I appreciated it very much.

I am finding though, that there are many who see things as you do, that are both enlightening when you're dealing with UR and hell and eternal punishment, I greatly enjoy so much of what is said.  But then when Revelation is thrown into the mix, there is a blending of the traditional belief that it's "going" to happen rather than "has" happened.  This kind of confuses me a little because obviously there is a huge breakthrough just in the fact that we can see that the entire world is set to benefit from the power of the blood and grace of God in every way.  That is so liberating to realize.

And at the same time, it is also what gets you thrown out of the church because mainline church's can't fathom those that reject Jesus aren't dooming themselves to eternal torment.  It's as Scripture says, they plug their ears and close their eyes . . . they can't see, nor can they hear Truth even if it's trumpeting in their face.

So the UR followers find themselves isolated from the rest because of their choice to see all men redeemed to the Father through the Son. It sort of reminds me of when Pentecost broke out in the early 1900's.  There were no Pentecostal denominations before then, it started by the rejection of other mainline denominations coming against those pursuing the manifestation of the Spirit in their midst.  And as they began to unite, they brought with them many of the same traditions that they were given before getting kicked out of their church.

I am a pastor of a denomination . . .and my own denomination is unaware of just how separated I am from them.  They have an idea now and I have been on the verge of getting kicked out myself.  We've just recently moved out of the parsonage and bought our own house in anticipation of that very thing.  For the time being, things are quieting down.  If God chooses for me to leave, I'm ready.  I'm just not convinced that time is now just yet. 

I am UR all the way.  But I've found myself in yet another room that includes UR, but not the same point of view with many of the other people who are also UR.  And my view of Revelation is apparently one of those things that are different.  I've taught the traditional view, very similar to your book, but I've since laid that down and picked up the perspective that it's to be seen spiritually more than literally.  I believe that it was literal to those to whom it was written to, just like all of the rest of Scripture.  But because we are 2000 years removed, different culture, different everything, the life in the word is what lies beneath that God reveals to his bond-servants (as opposed to a servant).

One big reason why I believe it was literally for them and not us is one little verse at the very end of the book . . .Revelation 22

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand

Daniel had many of the same events happening in his dream or vision and he was told just the opposite.  He was told to seal up the book.  But I believe John's documentation is the opening of that same book that Daniel was told to seal.  And, I believe Jesus is the one who first opened it when he himself referred to Daniel's writings.  But it's been over 2,000 years since Revelation was written and "the time is at hand" is understood to mean it had already begun to be fulfilled at the time when it was being written.

We're called to walk in the spirit, this is my platform, to pursue all things spiritually.  In this, I can then see why the book of Revelation was actually used as a hymnal to that generation it was written to.  They understood all of the symbolism.  It is all connected to the tabernacle of Moses as well as Solomon's.  For me, the thousand year reign is not a literal length of time, but it's a dimension of God.  The dimensions of the Holy of holies was 10x10x10.  That is 1000.  It's a picture of the Sabbath . .Christ is the Sabbath, he is the Day of the Lord.  Everything is Spiritual.  Again, I'm not saying there isn't a literal truth to it, all I'm saying is, the literal interpretation was for that generation then, not for us now.

Many of the references were also taken from Matthew 24 . . .twice in Matthew 23 and again in Matthew 24 Jesus referred to those things happening to "this" (meaning his of that day) generation. . .which eludes to the destruction of the temple and the identity of Israel as a nation.

No condemnation at all here, I hope this isn't taken that way.

Just my thoughts.

[WhiteWings]

No condemnation at all here, I hope this isn't taken that way.

Not by me Nathan. How can personal opinion be that?
I'm unable to understand but that's something else we spoke about before.

One last thing...

Welcome to the club bro,

On the photo Zoe looks far more as sister  than as a brother

[Nathan]

Ouchiwawa!!!  I never realized that there were two!  Guess I should pay closer attention to the little pics.  Thanks for that.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a literal truth to it, all I'm saying is, the literal interpretation was for that generation then, not for us now.

I think if we had lived during the time of the new testament language it would be easier to discern what was truly literal and what was abstract.

Everlasting is a proper abstract of Aionios,  because it will seem everlasting,  but not literally never ending.

I think most of revelations is that way.

[WhiteWings]

I think if we had lived during the time of the new testament language it would be easier to discern what was truly literal and what was abstract.

Surely that would be much easier. Same time, culture and for some the body language.

But isn't the Bible revealed little bit by little bit over time?
Perhaps we even understand this better as those listening right then?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think if we had lived during the time of the new testament language it would be easier to discern what was truly literal and what was abstract.

Surely that would be much easier. Same time, culture and for some the body language.

But isn't the Bible revealed little bit by little bit over time?
Perhaps we even understand this better as those listening right then?

Well, Jesus did say we would do greater things than he did.   

[HappyBoy!]

Welcome!   

[Zoe]

Hi Whitewings

Firstly, I would like to reply to your post re the pdf suggestion. Thank you for your good advise. I can now more fully understand why you would find a pdf useful. David and I have been writing our book over the past, approximately, four years updating the website as new chapters are written. It has been a continuous process and indeed last month we produced God's Plan for All in final pdf format before it went to print.

I am not a "techie" at all and I think that I stalled our server for an hour or so trying to upload the pdf unto our website this afternoon (UK time). Could I have been the guilty party? No less than a 258 page book. Anyway, suffice to say that David and I will look at getting it up unto our website so that people like yourself can download it and use it to search/quote from for discussion forums, e-mails etc. There is already an inbuilt search facility on our website but I guess that does not fit the bill.

By the way, I have never really been on a discussion forum in my life - it could be classified as quite a terrifying experience especially for a non-techie all of those icons, buttons etc can seem a bit scary. Wish I had a learner sticker on so that people would know to watch out for me! Hey - why not I'll try to pop one of these funny faces on this post. 

Cheerio for now.   

[WhiteWings]

Zoe,

Your site seems fast so I have no idea why your upload took so long. I guess the .pdf is only around 800Kbytes big.


Have absolutely zero experience with it but it seems books can also be submitted to Google books
http://books.google.com/support/partner/bin/topic.py?topic=332
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=ikke&num=100&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp

By the way, I have never really been on a discussion forum in my life - it could be classified as quite a terrifying experience especially for a non-techie all of those icons, buttons etc can seem a bit scary. Wish I had a learner sticker on so that people would know to watch out for me! Hey - why not I'll try to pop one of these funny faces on this post.

If an icon is the most terrifying thing to you; you must already live in heaven 
Just keep posting and after 10 messages you will wonder why you ever found it so scary.
If everyone that made a mistake on this forum was kicked out it would become bohuw/void 

Hint: login under davids name. If something goes wrong you can blame him 

[Zoe]

Reply to Nathan

Hi Nathan

I would have liked to be able to spend more time on this note/post to you but I am on a bit of an agenda this evening and wanted to get something off to you before this thread gets closed for any reason - then I think that I wouldn't be able to reply?

Yes, I am a sis not a bro as pointed out to you - no worries David and I have both recently joined the site so I thought we should upload a picture of both of us - just to confuse matters.

It is often a difficult situation to be known as a believer in universal reconciliation within the current traditional church setting. David and I can empathise with you. We have suffered reproaches of many kinds as the Bible warns us we would.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

In the early days when we attempted to integrate with others we were told that we would not be able to become members of a particular church - not because we didn't believe that there is eternal torment in hell for unbelievers, but because we were writing our book. We have many examples of rejection which I am sure many members of this forum can also identify with. Yes, there is a cost for you and your family and I pray that God will guide you and give you the courage to move forward into his calling to preach the gospel, without the restrictions which you now experience in your church setting. However, there is also a tremendous reward!

Let me now come on to a few other points from your post.

I am glad that you appreciated reading the chapters in our book which dealt with hell and those which cover the traditional christian misunderstanding of eternity. It sounds like you have read some of our book, but possibly not all of it?

You mentioned that you believe that Revelation "has happened', and that you take the bible more from a spiritual perspective than a literal perspective. Yes, you're right David and I both take the bible verses at face value. That does not mean that we are not led by the Holy Spirit into understanding His word. The outworking of the prophecy in Revelation was near when it was given to John on Patmos, but that does not mean that the prophecy is completely worked out yet. I am sorry that I have to be brief this evening, but for example, since that time there have been wars, and rumors of wars and earthquakes and all sorts of natural and human catastrophes - described as the birth pains as the whole of creation awaits the returning Christ. But the Kingdom which we pray for to come as in the Lord's prayer is not yet a reality. Yes the kingdom reborn life is within us who are in Christ because we are already seated in heavenly places with Christ, and we are ambassadors of Christ in this world. However, the literal 1000 year kingdom has not yet come. We still await the two final signs before the setting up of Christ's kingdom on this earth i.e. the preaching of the gospel in all of the world (as we are all aware it is only a half-baked gospel which has been preached to date) and the second sign is the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds.  There is the one-thousand year kingdom still to come when Christ returns to rule during the millennial kingdom and there will be a future kingdom of the new heaven and the new earth which is to come at the end of the ages when Christ utters the words 'It is Done'.  We know that there are still stones standing on top of one another from the last temple in Jerusalem and that they have not all been toppled yet as prophesied by Christ and we know that Christ has never sat as King on the throne of David - in Jerusalem, and we also know that Israel has never yet occupied all of the land promised to Abraham - which they will occupy in the millennial age. I guess I had better go now - but I think that you would find it helpful and encouraging to read Chapter 8 The Gospel of the Kingdom and other chapters in our book. Of course, I get very excited about all of this because I believe it. Bless you as you make decisions for you and your family about your future.

Zoe





 

[Zeek]

We still await the two final signs before the setting up of Christ's kingdom on this earth i.e. the preaching of the gospel in all of the world (as we are all aware it is only a half-baked gospel which has been preached to date) and the second sign is the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds.  Zoe





 

…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8, NASB throughout unless otherwise noted.)

…surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

Colossians: "5…the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing…" (Col. 1:5b-6).

"…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23b, KJV).

[davidsulem]

We still await the two final signs before the setting up of Christ's kingdom on this earth i.e. the preaching of the gospel in all of the world (as we are all aware it is only a half-baked gospel which has been preached to date) and the second sign is the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds.  Zoe

…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8, NASB throughout unless otherwise noted.)

…surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

Colossians: "5…the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing…" (Col. 1:5b-6).

"…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23b, KJV).

Hi Zeek, I am David, husband to Zoe. Thank you for pointing out the bible verses which appear to say that the gospel of Jesus Christ has already been preached to the whole world.

God used apostle Paul to preach the true universalist gospel to the world within his reach. However, he did not have the means and the technology to preach the gospel 'to the ends of the world', and the history confirms that the whole world was never evangelised during Apostle Paul's time, or in fact any other time to date in the history of Christianity.

Paul was looking forward to the time when the true and full gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations as prophesied by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:14. 

To understand Romans1:8. Romans 1:18, Colossians 1:5 and Colossians 1:23, we need to know that the relevant Greek verbs, kataggello,  exerchmai, en, and kerysso used in these verses can also be used in all three tenses, past, present and future. The bible translators have mistranslated these verses into the past tense when they ought to have used the future tense.

Below I have shown both the wrong and the correct translation of these verses.

Romans 1:8 (KJV) – wrong translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8  – correct translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith will be spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.


Romans 10:18 (KJV) – wrong translation
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes (menoun) verily, their sound went (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Romans 10:18 - correct translation
But I say, Have they not heard? No but (menoun) verily, their sound will go  (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Colossians 1:5 (KJV) – wrong translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it is] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:5  – correct  translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it will be] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:


Colossians 1:23 (KJV) – wrong translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Colossians 1:23 – correct  translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which will be preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Note, KJV and most other bible versions have correctly translated the Greek word kerysso in future tense in Matthew 24:14

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) – correct translation
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (kerysso) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

'Christians' over the centuries have been zealous in their missions to convert people to Christianity and save them from burning hell, but the true universalist gospel of the Kingdom of God has not yet gone out in all the world for a witness unto all nations. This must happen, and will happen before this present age will come to an end at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

We now have the technology for the true universalist gospel to be preached to the ends of the world. Zoe and I are passionately committed to help preach the true gospel of the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14. This is why we have a website, www.GodsPlanforAll.com and also why we have printed our book, God's Plan for All.

Blessings

David

[Zeek]

We still await the two final signs before the setting up of Christ's kingdom on this earth i.e. the preaching of the gospel in all of the world (as we are all aware it is only a half-baked gospel which has been preached to date) and the second sign is the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds.  Zoe

…I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8, NASB throughout unless otherwise noted.)

…surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

Colossians: "5…the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing…" (Col. 1:5b-6).

"…the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23b, KJV).

Hi Zeek, I am David, husband to Zoe. Thank you for pointing out the bible verses which appear to say that the gospel of Jesus Christ has already been preached to the whole world.

God used apostle Paul to preach the true universalist gospel to the world within his reach. However, he did not have the means and the technology to preach the gospel 'to the ends of the world', and the history confirms that the whole world was never evangelised during Apostle Paul's time, or in fact any other time to date in the history of Christianity.

Paul was looking forward to the time when the true and full gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations as prophesied by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:14. 

To understand Romans1:8. Romans 1:18, Colossians 1:5 and Colossians 1:23, we need to know that the relevant Greek verbs, kataggello,  exerchmai, en, and kerysso used in these verses can also be used in all three tenses, past, present and future. The bible translators have mistranslated these verses into the past tense when they ought to have used the future tense.

Below I have shown both the wrong and the correct translation of these verses.

Romans 1:8 (KJV) – wrong translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8  – correct translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith will be spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.


Romans 10:18 (KJV) – wrong translation
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes (menoun) verily, their sound went (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Romans 10:18 - correct translation
But I say, Have they not heard? No but (menoun) verily, their sound will go  (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Colossians 1:5 (KJV) – wrong translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it is] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:5  – correct  translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it will be] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:


Colossians 1:23 (KJV) – wrong translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Colossians 1:23 – correct  translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which will be preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Note, KJV and most other bible versions have correctly translated the Greek word kerysso in future tense in Matthew 24:14

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) – correct translation
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (kerysso) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

'Christians' over the centuries have been zealous in their missions to convert people to Christianity and save them from burning hell, but the true universalist gospel of the Kingdom of God has not yet gone out in all the world for a witness unto all nations. This must happen, and will happen before this present age will come to an end at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

We now have the technology for the true universalist gospel to be preached to the ends of the world. Zoe and I are passionately committed to help preach the true gospel of the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14. This is why we have a website, www.GodsPlanforAll.com and also why we have printed our book, God's Plan for All.

Blessings

David

I understand your passion and belief, but imo; you are trying to fulfill a fulfilled promise. 

I agree more with Nathan, that Mathew 24 has been fulfilled literally and the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the outward sign that God is no longer dealing with peoples from an outward view/old covenant system;

and that scripture still has an inward spiritual application as we grow into a greater knowledge of our fulfilled status.

God bless

 

[Taffy]

I agree more with Nathan, that Mathew 24 has been fulfilled literally and the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the outward sign that God is no longer dealing with peoples from an outward view/old covenant system;

and that scripture still has an inward spiritual application as we grow into a greater knowledge of our fulfilled status.

God bless

[davidsulem]

I understand your passion and belief, but imo; you are trying to fulfill a fulfilled promise.

I agree more with Nathan, that Mathew 24 has been fulfilled literally and the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the outward sign that God is no longer dealing with peoples from an outward view/old covenant system;

and that scripture still has an inward spiritual application as we grow into a greater knowledge of our fulfilled status.

God bless

I disagree. If Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled, then this present Age was ended, and Jesus Christ has already been returned. Of course, neither of this is true. Zeek, you have not provided any historical evidence or biblical support to prove your point of view.

[Zeek]

I understand your passion and belief, but imo; you are trying to fulfill a fulfilled promise.

I agree more with Nathan, that Mathew 24 has been fulfilled literally and the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the outward sign that God is no longer dealing with peoples from an outward view/old covenant system;

and that scripture still has an inward spiritual application as we grow into a greater knowledge of our fulfilled status.

God bless

I disagree. If Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled, then this present Age was ended, and Jesus Christ has already been returned. Of course, neither of this is true. Zeek, you have not provided any historical evidence or biblical support to prove your point of view.

I don't have the energy to go into this, but there is plenty on the web if you are intrested.  you might want to check out this website www.pantelism.com.  or here www.infinite-grace.com

and this forum if further interested  http://www.talk-grace.com


and yes I do think Jesus returned in judgment and the age ended, the end of the old covenant.



but in a spiritual sense, I believe there is an ongoing "internal" awakening.   


blessings

[Taffy]

and yes I do think Jesus literally returned in judgment and the age ended, the end of the old covenant.

you Think well Grasshopper ....

A new age begins , which is the END.... ..yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.