willieH: Hi Shadow...
Although I believe Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, I don't consider myself a christian as I can't identify with people that think the majority of mankind deserve everlasting torture, I also don't believe universal salvation to be true, there are just too many verses that indicate that all mankind will not be saved, I would say I identify more with the agnostic label, rather than christian
There are in excess of 150 verses which attest to UR in the Scriptures (I can produce a list if you like - I think WW did it recently in another thread), ...how many that attest to ET or Annhilation Shadow?
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Before commenting on verses quoted from the book of REVELATION, let me first note my observation of this SYMBOLIC book, and the essence of it...
The book of REVELATION
is NOT a PROPHETIC book of the END... it is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST
(who has NO BEGINNING or END) who is WITHIN and IS the ALPHA (beginning) and OMEGA (end) of ALL THINGS which are amidst TIME noted to have both a BEGINNING (Gen 1)
, ...AND an END (John 6:44)
The book of "REVELATION
" is the REVEALING
of JESUS CHRIST
... That which is REVEALED is already THERE! The WAR depicted in this book is that which takes place between JESUS CHRIST
(inward man), and the FLESH of MAN (outward man)...
The OUTWARD--NATURAL MAN (BEAST=ADAM)
... versus the INWARD--SPIRIT MAN (SPIRIT=CHRIST)
... BOTH of these are part of EACH of us...Rev 13:8
refers to "satan" which is the NATURAL ADVERSITY of the FLESH of [beast within] MEN... (James 1:14)
It is the desire/lust
of FLESH which overcomes us, and drags us into SIN... (vs 7)
... making WAR
with us as [inward] SPIRIT beings, as Paul notes: (Rom 7:23)
ALL names are blotted from the "book of LIFE", for ALL DIE
They are WRITTEN in the "book of the Lamb's LIFE" not by CHRIST SLAIN
, but by Him RESURRECTED
We DIE in ADAM... we LIVE in CHRIST
... Our names concerning DEATH are written in ADAM's DEATH... Our names concerning LIFE are written in the RESURRECTION or CONQUERING of DEATH, in the LAMB's LIFE... (1 Cor 15:22)
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
This is quite correct... NONE of these shall be found in the Kingdom of GOD... for ALL these things shall find there END in ALL MEN...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
GOD has NO PARTIALITY Shadow (Acts 10:34 / rom 2:11 / 2 Sam 14:14 / Eph 6:9 / Gal 2:6 / Job 34:19 -- how many TIMES must HE repeat it, before we believe?)
In order to claim this continually repeated statement, ...what He does for ONE, He MUST DO, for ALL OTHERS... If SALVATION is HIS WORK alone (Eph 2:8-10)
, and is accomplished
ENTIRELY aside from ANY INVOLVMENT of MEN (aside from them being beneficiaries)... then ALL must be SAVED, or GOD's WORD
bears False witness... and is a LIE... as it claims (in one of several places): (1 Tim 4:10)
that: GOD ...IS... the Savior of ALL MEN, especially THOSE that BELIEVE...
Although I believe God can save everyone, I don't believe He's going to/or wants to, as there are just so many scriptures that indicate that all are not saved like the ones above
I have already refuted the ones above...
But, if you would...
Let me ask you sister Shadow...
If you have charge over 10 infant children, and they are in a house BURNING... and you CAN
SAVE them ALL
(have the "time and power" to do so)... HOW MANY will you SAVE? And if not ALL, ...WHY not ALL?
Thanxxx for your answer!
I personally think annihilition to be the truth
Hmmm... a word not even used in the Scripture is the TRUTH
Hmmm... an ALMIGHTY GOD, which claims to be LOVE
... and sets ALL the "rules", and places EACH PERSON on this planet in the ENVIRONMENT that HE CHOOSES... WHEN HE chooses...
States in HIS WORD
, that HE is NOT WILLING that ANY PERISH
... and claims to be COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL (as I have noted above) is basis for believing that He shall BURN many or MOST, into obliteration?
:omg: WHY? Why should He do this Shadow? Is this a PEACEFUL (descriptive word of the GOSPEL
) and ultimately, PRODUCTIVE conclusion? He CAN
save them, but... just doesn't "want to"?
Is that how YOU OBSERVE the characteristics of LOVE
? Observing LOVE
for the MOST PART, as ...INDIFFERENT?
What happened to "GOD so LOVED
[creation in its entirety]" Shadow?
BTW... might I remind you that STATEMENTS made by GOD are EVERLASTING... So if HE SAYS... that He "so LOVED
" the World... then He ALWAYS does LOVE
the world, and ALWAYS WILL ...LOVE
]Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Well, how about this: John 1:29 ...behold [if you are able] the Lamb of GOD, which TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD...
... if it is TAKEN AWAY... how is it STILL PRESENT - to be used against "the WORLD"?
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
This Scripture is noting THIS GROUP: Phil 2:10-11 ...that at the Name of JESUS, ...EVERY knee should bow of
things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth... AND that EVERY TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the GLORY of GOD the Father...
and that CONFESSION
comes in THIS MANNER:1 Cor 12:3 ...wherefore I give you to UNDERSTAND, that NO MAN speaking by the SPIRIT of GOD calleth JESUS accursed, and
that NO MAN CAN say that JESUS CHRIST is LORD ...but BY the HOLY GHOST
which RESULTS in:Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the MOUTH... CONFESSION is made UNTO SALVATIONRom 10:13 For WHOSOEVER shall CALL upon the NAME of the LORD [Every TONGUE that CONFESSES] ...SHALL ...BE ...SAVED...
What of ALL THAT, sister Shadow?
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
ALL sinners DIE sister S... the "LIVING SOUL" is composed of the EARTH combined with the BREATH of LIFE (GOD is LIFE)...
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
this verse does not establish your case... This is just saying that we ALL stand alone and accountable for our lives before GOD... and BEFORE we give that account in RESURRECTION, we shall ...DIE... (return to the DUST from which we CAME)
I don't think death means eternal life with torment in hell, it means death as in ceasing to exist altogether, I also don't see how one comes out of non-existence, once one is cast into the lake of fire
Guess it depends on your understanding or lack of understanding, as to WHAT and WHEN the Lake of FIRE is...
THIS LIFE, is the LAKE of FIRE sister Shadow... The LOF is NOT HELL, for HELL [grave/hades] is CAST INTO IT... Here in THIS LIFE do we experience DEATH and the GRAVE [hell/hades]...
And I think there is definitely going to be very severe punishments in store
This is nothing but the promotion of FEAR,
...to which the WORD
says THIS:1 John 4:18 ...there is NO FEAR [terror] in LOVE; but PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR... because FEAR hath TORMENT. He that FEARETH is NOT MADE PERFECT, ...in LOVE.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
THEM that KNOW NOT GOD... are not MEN... rather are the DEEDS of MEN...JESUS
said: Luke 23:34 Father FORGIVE THEM [men], for they KNOW NOT, what they ...DO [deeds]...
of GOD is against
THE DEEDS of MEN... not MEN... MEN are LOVED by GOD:Rom 1:18 For the WRATH of God ...IS... revealed from Heaven ...AGAINST... ALL ...ungodliness and unrighteousness... OF MEN, who hold the TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...JESUS
said:John 14:6 ...I am the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE...
is also the LIFE
... and MEN that [unknowingly] DO
unrighteous things, are "holding" LIFE and TRUTH
hostage in that unrighteousness...CHRIST
is either REVEALED or VEILED... but is PRESENT in ALL... He is the INWARD man... (Rom 7:22)
And we will be held accountable for what we say or do
Correct... that "account" is "facing the music" of WHO and WHAT we UNKNOWINGLY were while in this life... and the SHAME of that account is either COVERED in the GARMENT of CHRIST... (provided by GOD), or REVEALED in SHAME before YHVH
:Rev 3:18 I counsel [advise] thee to buy [obtain] of Me, GOLD tried IN FIRE [lake of FIRE - JESUS experienced His "TRIALS" in THIS LIFE], that thou mayest be RICH, and white RAIMENT [garment], that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the SHAME of thy NAKEDNESS [unrighteousness], do NOT APPEAR, and annoint thine eyes with eye-salve that thou mayest see.
That's enough for me, ...Though it is not my agenda to change your beliefs (which are pretty GRIM), ...I truly hope you got some new insight here...
For the TRUE message of the GOSPEL
is the GOSPEL of PEACE
... (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)
not of TERROR or FEAR... which things are NOT a part of LOVE
Believe what you will...