Curious to see what denomination most of y'all are...

[DeeDee]

I am now major confused about something here. Often I hear (on these forums) that the KJV Bible is corrupt, then I hear its the only proper translation. Now which is it actually?

[firstborn888]

I am now major confused about something here. Often I hear (on these forums) that the KJV Bible is corrupt, then I hear its the only proper translation. Now which is it actually?

It's not a bad translation IF you know what certain original words mean. The reason many use it here and elsewhere is due to it's wide acceptance AND the Strong's concordance being an excellent resource in looking up the original meanings. The only thing to be careful about with the Strong's is to look at the root scholarly meanings as after those they go on and try to show how and why the KJV translated the word the way they did.

Also, if you didn't know, their is a huge cult following of the KJV that says basically it is the ONLY translation authorized by God (!) I don't think anyone here thinks that

[jabcat]

I am now major confused about something here. Often I hear (on these forums) that the KJV Bible is corrupt, then I hear its the only proper translation. Now which is it actually?

LOL! I was just thinking the same thing after having read the "What translation do you use" thread that Sven just brought back to life.
But like Byron is saying, it's purely a matter of tradition. Especially in the Southern "Bible-belt" states in America and of course in most any other English speaking country. I'd only be willing to concede that it was the only "God inspired translation" or whatever the claim is supposed to be, if the Spanish, French, Italian, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Russian etc. etc. equivalent translations are a word for word equivalent of the KJV. Which I'm guessing they are not. I doubt anyone is going to hear the argument regarding the KJV in any non-English speaking Christian churches.

Fortunately for me, I've never been in a church that demanded the KJV. The pastors that have figured the most prominently in my life have all read from the New American Standard. Including my current pastor, who is alright with just about any standard translation. The only ones he warns us to stay away from are the ones tailor made to fit the doctrine of various cults such as Jehovah's Witness.

What I want, as far as validity goes, is one that was objectively translated, with no prior doctrinal commitment under the false authority of religious officials usurping the place of the Holy Spirit.

This is an interesting translation.  It is supposedly free from any such bias, although I do believe I see some when I read it, but maybe that's at least partly my bias...they claim to be the most literally accurate translation from the Koine Greek...again, it is very interesting, and it's a version I read.  www.christianbiblesociety.com.  God's blessing, James.

[fullarmor2]

I started out with the AG when I was a kid.  God used that place to get my attention for sure.  As a teen I stopped attending but I remember always having a soft spot in my heart towards God and spiritual things in general.   Then I joined the Army and got stationed in Germany. While there, I was invited to a church off base. Turns out it was an organization from the U.S.  in Germany to "reach"  American soldiers. They were nondenominational,  but the leader use to be Pentecostal, so.   They were a holiness church. All the men wore similar suits,  and the women had to wear dresses and could not cut their hair.  Because in Corinthians Paul said it is a shame for a women to cut her hair. Anyway,  when I got out of the Army  I got away from that organization and started attending some other churches similar to pentecostal.  And then a couple years ago I started questioning my beliefs regarding divine judgment of people. And I started doing this before I discovered UR. So I know it was God helping to expose lies in what I believed and to reveal truth to me.  And then I found UR believers, particularly here at Tentmaker and it has been awesome.   Right now I don't attend church,  but I do fellowship,   such as now with you good people.  I would love to find a UR fellowship in my city,  but it has not happened yet.  I suppose I could get off my butt and start one however. Hey, now there is a thought.  Thats all.   

[alihaymeg]

I was raised penticostal and got most of my indoctrination from those churches. My father was a Church of God minister for a few years, and then we traveled a lot as he became an evangelist. It should have been hard for me to break the stranglehold that those early teachings of Hell fire had on me, but I have always been something of a nonconformist. If it doesn't make sense, then it must not be the truth. I don't know how anyone who truly knows God could ever think that He is anything but kind and perfect in His love and forgiveness. I know it more surely than I have ever known anything.

About the proper translaton idea; I think we should remember that the only true translation that is without bias is the original Greek and Hebrew texts. There will always be some hiden idiom or double meaning that escapes us because we do not know the languages as they were spoken at that time. I think the only way to read the Bible and understand it fully is to trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into the truth. Just as He has for all of us through this web site and a few others out there.
Thanks for sharing,

[sven]

my parents are lutherans, so i am officially too, but in fact i have no denomination, i´m not sure if i am christian, i am a strict monotheist so i tend more to judaism beliefs, so i have problems with some christian beliefs, i reject the idea of trinity but i didnt want to arque about that topic, so i might me an arian and a heretic, but i have no problem to believe that the Mashiach will save the whole creation, so if Jesus is the Mashiach - i have no problem to believe that he saves the whole creation, its much more logical than  that he condemns allmost all mankind to hell, as there is no word written about hell in the Tanakh.

[DeeDee]

my parents are lutherans, so i am officially too, but in fact i have no denomination, i´m not sure if i am christian, i am a strict monotheist so i tend more to judaism beliefs, so i have problems with some christian beliefs, i reject the idea of trinity but i didnt want to arque about that topic, so i might me an arian and a heretic, but i have no problem to believe that the Mashiach will save the whole creation, so if Jesus is the Mashiach - i have no problem to believe that he saves the whole creation, its much more logical than  that he condemns allmost all mankind to hell, as there is no word written about hell in the Tanakh.

You can rest assured that Jesus IS the Messiah and he came to save all mankind.

Blessings
DeeDee

[jabcat]

You can rest assured that Jesus IS the Messiah and he came to save all mankind.

Blessings
DeeDee

Amen.  God's blessing, James.

[Shadow]

Although I believe Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, I don't consider myself a christian as I can't identify with people that think the majority of mankind deserve everlasting torture, I also don't believe universal salvation to be true, there are just too many verses that indicate that all mankind will not be saved, I would say I identify more with the agnostic label, rather than christian

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Although I believe God can save everyone, I don't believe He's going to/or wants to, as there are just so many scriptures that indicate that all are not saved like the ones above

I personally think annihilition to be the truth

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I don't think death means eternal life with torment in hell, it means death as in ceasing to exist altogether, I also don't see how one comes out of non-existence, once one is cast into the lake of fire

And I think there is definitely going to be very severe punishments in store

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

And we will be held accountable for what we say or do

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

It's my first choice that UR be true, but I don't think it's right, conditional immortality seems to be more true, and is a much better choice than ET, which I can never justify under any circumstances, I know instinctively that I could never worship a god that's worse than my own father (hence my reason for labeling myself as agnostic rather than christian), although I'm the least dear to my earthly father out of his 4 children, he could never do to me, even if he could get away with it, what the ET god will do to most of his creation

If an ET god exists, then he is NOT a god of love, full stop , and we are all in trouble (Mary Baxter, Fred Phelps, Bill Wiese and Jonathan Edwards and all the ET preachers in the world don't do him justice)

[HappyBoy!]

I grew up attending the Church of the Nazarene.  They are Wesleyan in background and are a split off from the Methodist church.  There it was NIV all the time except for one lady who strictly used the KJV because, "that's how they talked in Jesus' day".  Bless her heart.

I stayed in a Nazarene church until a few years ago when I switched to an independent Baptist.  I am still there, but mainly due to my wife.  Since coming to belief in UR I walk away heavy hearted most Sundays/Wednesdays as seldom is an opportunity to reinforce ET missed.

My wife is not UR (though we continue to have deep and lovely discussions) so she prefers to stay where we are.  "Where would we go?" she asks.  Home is about the only place I can think of, though I may consider a small Methodist or Lutheran church.

I mainly use KJV due to the reference tools available, but I almost always cross over to the Young's when studying.  Recently I began reading our family devotions from the Concordant.  I'm also reading through the New Testament again on my own using the Concordant.

Most of my study is from my Palm OS PDA.  It is so handy and powerful and it's always with me.  I have two KJV versions with Strongs installed.  I notice that there is variation even between the two Strongs.  One has some Spurgeon commentary built in.  I guess you even have to watch out with the Strongs.

Great thread!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Although I believe God can save everyone, I don't believe He's going to/or wants to, as there are just so many scriptures that indicate that all are not saved like the ones above

Hi shadow,  I understand the point at which you are at.  The issue I found is that we shift as we find verses that appear to contradict so we tend to go by the number of verses for a certain view that can help us feel secure and not taking a risk.  Some verses leave us with a gap in our knowledge and fear wants us to fill in that gap so we are not left wondering.

It still is the ET mindset at work, not ET specifically, but the manner in which it is taught.   It is taught better to be safe than sorry, so it is better to accept a God rather than face whatever the alternative is taught to be.


The problem with stating you do not think God desires or wants to save all mankind is that is contradictory to the verses that state plainly otherwise.

God is not willing that any should perish

2Pt 3:9 The Lord is not tardy as to the promise, as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish, but all to make room into repentance.

The number of verses really is not an indicator of something being true or not.  All it takes is one to conflict with a view in order to bring question to it.

Whatever is the truth, our belief changes nothing concerning it.

What I usually ask, is if Gods love can never fail, then explain how it does?

[sven]

You can rest assured that Jesus IS the Messiah and he came to save all mankind.

i hope so, i would be glad if i would be as sure as you are

i´d find it interesting, if here are former Jehova Witnesses or maybe Seventh Day Adventists?

i had in mind, maybe to visit a community of non-trinitarian Seventh Day Adventists, they believe in annihilationism which is ok for me, i like that they hold the sabbat, i try do so aswell

[Nathan]

Very enjoyable thread . .this may be one of those where you keep a close tab on for later conversations where we can revert back to this and get a better grasp of where people are coming from with other discussions.

I was raised in a strict Assembly of God as a child . . .we went to a Foursquare church for a while after that, and then I spent my teenaged years in an independant church.  My Dad could never find a pastor he could agree with on all things . . .to this day that has not changed.  At any rate, in my early 20's I left the family church and went to a much larger Assemblies of God church which turned out to be much more laid back than the little one I grew up in.

While there, I had a life-changing experience with the Lord that led to a vision several years later which turned out to be a call to be a Pastor at the church I'm currently pastoring.  Which is another Foursquare church.  I never paid much attention to the titles . . if it was Pentecostal, I never paid much mind to the details after that.

I found myself believing in UR before knowing that's what it was.  I came from a different direction, but ended up at the same conclusion.  I am pretty much forced to keep a low profile when around my superiors.  I'm not here to change a denomination.  I'm here to free the captives of this one community who've found themselves in the forced embrace of the beliefs of a dead woman long gone . . .(Aimee Semple McPherson was the founder of the denomination).  

I'm not walking blindly, I'm fully aware that I'm a heretic by definition according to the denomination.  But as far as I can see, they're the ones that shot themselves in the foot when it comes to the liberating freedom in Christ by setting doctrinal boundaries.  I'm just taking advantage of their set-up for the time being until God opens up the next door.

I preach out of New King James, New American Standard, King James . . .my favorite is the Message Translation.  I also like New Living Translation . .but for studying specific words . . .KJV is the go-to translation.  Another reason for going to that one is also because that's where people's faith is at . .in the King James . .so when we use "that" translation and point out that the words in there may not mean what we were originally taught to mean, it's much more effective in shedding light on what was originally said.

To know Greek and Hebrew would be great, but I'm also constantly reminded by this little voice in me that the Pharisees and Scribes of the day knew the original translations and they lived in the culture in which Scripture was birthed from . . and they didn't get any of it right either . . .so translations are a great thing . .but only the Spirit can reveal the truth . .no matter what translation it is.

[Doc]

I consider myself non-denominational, but I attend a (conservative) baptist church that is more like a mennonite congregation in many respects. Still, they unfortunately support (as most churches do) the ET/ Eternal Separation paradigm.
I unfortunately find less and less to agree with the pastor on since repenting to UR a couple of years ago, but we stay because it's a great community/ family in many other respects, and because we've been there since 1991. It's hard to feel like you've outgrown your pastor, especially one that you've greatly respected over the years (and still do, in some respects; just not so much his teaching these days).

 I learn more in an hour or two on this board than I do on Sundays these days; which is OK since I go there to minister rather than be fed myself. I was raised in various village missions churches under the ET/ premillennial dispensational camp (I would consider myself UR/ partial preterist now); ranging from CM alliance to baptist, and I attended an Evangelical (Free?) church for awhile; some great people there, too.

[Texas Son]

Hebrews 10:23-25
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging {one another;} and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

I am curious reading through a number of these post how many have decided not to fellowship at a Church. Are we not the salt of the earth? Even if we remain silent in our belief of UR in the pews, doesn't Christ place us in the Body for His use? Although the leadership in my church knows about my UR leanings I do not share it with the Body as Christ has not yet instructed me to. I pray someday that God would begin taking the blinders of the eyes of His people that they may know Him in His full glory without the lies of ET. But how will He do that if His people called by His name decide to sit home and not fellowship with the Saints?

If we are God's vessels, should we not be placed where God can pour us out in the time of His choosing?

Blessings!
TS

[jabcat]

I can't give a total answer to this, but here's what happened to me.  I was very involved in the music ministry for years in a denomination (Baptist recently, earlier AG).  God began to convict me to "come out", and explicitly lead me not only to the verse in Revelation wrt "come out of her my people", but also a very timely commentary on that from the Christian Bible, as well as a personal word.  I struggled with it, the conviction continued and increased.  I was miserable until I yielded.  I resigned my membership, and became "unwelcome" to continue to play and sing in the praise band...which confirmed the decision. 

For me, I believe it was more "coming out of the system", the denomination, partaking of/and perhaps then implicitly "approving of" the division, confusion, and many unscriptural teachings of the denomination.  I do still attend on Sunday mornings with my wife and have perhaps some fellowship.  Not much, because so much of the teaching is based on a total "free will", ET, etc., so I'm really not very engaged for the most part.  I see myself more as an outsider, actually.

As far as the witness part of it, I just have a peace that I'm in God's will, that He has led me where I am.  He uses me here and there as I just live my life daily with others I work with, "run into" at the store, etc.  It has become more about attending to people, being more loving (which I really haven't been and still not, real good at) and there are times when God provides clear opportunities for me to share His Good News, declaring Him as the Savior, etc.  But it's been more of a personal, daily walk, more led by Him (thanks to Him and His mercy, none of it my doing) rather than "attending services regularly and doing my duty" as I had done for many years.  I'm certainly not against meeting with others and fellowshipping, even at planned, organized times...it's just more of the big system of confusion and division that is the problem for me.

I just really figure I need to be sure and follow God's will and lead in my life, and He will take care of the rest, all in His timing, arranging the circumstances according to His will.  Call me simpleminded, but I've messed up enough stuff on my own  , now maybe it's time to just trust and lean on Him.  Not real good at it, but He's bringing me along. 

I do think that God may use different ones of us in different places and in different ways, and at different times.  So I guess we can just share the Word, our thoughts, love each other, and trust God to work out the details in each of our lives.

God's blessing, James.

[Doc]

I'll add that one of the main reasons we haven't left our church fellowship is because during a four week series our pastor did against "universalism" (his very flawed understanding of it, to be precise); he said during one of the sermons that "everyone he knew in his generation that turned to universalism left the church". So, part of the reason we haven't left is so that he can't say, "Told you so!" (I personally think the reason those folks probably "left" was because they were DRIVEN out).

He did the series after he found out that I had been exploring universalism and sharing it with others. (Without talking to me about it before or after, btw). I had left Gerry Beauchemin's book for him with a note asking for his input some months before.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shadow...

Although I believe Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, I don't consider myself a christian as I can't identify with people that think the majority of mankind deserve everlasting torture, I also don't believe universal salvation to be true, there are just too many verses that indicate that all mankind will not be saved, I would say I identify more with the agnostic label, rather than christian

There are in excess of 150 verses which attest to UR in the Scriptures (I can produce a list if you like - I think WW did it recently in another thread), ...how many that attest to ET or Annhilation Shadow?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Before commenting on verses quoted from the book of REVELATION, let me first note my observation of this SYMBOLIC book, and the essence of it...

The book of REVELATION is NOT a PROPHETIC book of the END... it is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST (who has NO BEGINNING or END) who is WITHIN and IS the ALPHA (beginning) and OMEGA (end) of ALL THINGS which are amidst TIME noted to have both a BEGINNING (Gen 1), ...AND an END (John 6:44)...

The book of "REVELATION" is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... That which is REVEALED is already THERE!  The WAR depicted in this book is that which takes place between JESUS CHRIST (inward man), and the FLESH of MAN (outward man)...

The OUTWARD--NATURAL MAN (BEAST=ADAM)... versus the INWARD--SPIRIT MAN (SPIRIT=CHRIST)... BOTH of these are part of EACH of us...

Rev 13:8 refers to "satan" which is the NATURAL ADVERSITY of the FLESH of [beast within] MEN... (James 1:14)

It is the desire/lust of FLESH which overcomes us, and drags us into SIN... (vs 7)... making WAR with us as [inward] SPIRIT beings, as Paul notes: (Rom 7:23)

ALL names are blotted from the "book of LIFE", for ALL DIE in ADAM...

They are WRITTEN in the "book of the Lamb's LIFE" not by CHRIST SLAIN, but by Him RESURRECTED ...to LIFE...

We DIE in ADAM... we LIVE in CHRIST...  Our names concerning DEATH are written in ADAM's DEATH... Our names concerning LIFE are written in the RESURRECTION or CONQUERING of DEATH, in the LAMB's LIFE... (1 Cor 15:22)

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

This is quite correct... NONE of these shall be found in the Kingdom of GOD... for ALL these things shall find there END in ALL MEN...

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

GOD has NO PARTIALITY Shadow (Acts 10:34 / rom 2:11 / 2 Sam 14:14 / Eph 6:9 / Gal 2:6 / Job 34:19 -- how many TIMES must HE repeat it, before we believe?) ...

In order to claim this continually repeated statement, ...what He does for ONE, He MUST DO, for ALL OTHERS... If SALVATION is HIS WORK alone (Eph 2:8-10), and is accomplished ENTIRELY aside from ANY INVOLVMENT of MEN (aside from them being beneficiaries)... then ALL must be SAVED, or GOD's WORD bears False witness... and is a LIE... as it claims (in one of several places): (1 Tim 4:10) that:   GOD ...IS... the Savior of ALL MEN, especially THOSE that BELIEVE...

Although I believe God can save everyone, I don't believe He's going to/or wants to, as there are just so many scriptures that indicate that all are not saved like the ones above

I have already refuted the ones above...    But, if you would...

Let me ask you sister Shadow... 

If you have charge over 10 infant children, and they are in a house BURNING... and you CAN SAVE them ALL (have the "time and power" to do so)... HOW MANY will you SAVE?  And if not ALL, ...WHY not ALL? 

Thanxxx for your answer! 

I personally think annihilition to be the truth

Hmmm... a word not even used in the Scripture is the TRUTH? 

Hmmm... an ALMIGHTY GOD, which claims to be LOVE... and sets ALL the "rules", and places EACH PERSON on this planet in the ENVIRONMENT that HE CHOOSES... WHEN HE chooses... 

States in HIS WORD, that HE is NOT WILLING that ANY PERISH... and claims to be COMPLETELY IMPARTIAL (as I have noted above) is basis for believing that He shall BURN many or MOST, into obliteration? 

 :omg:  WHY?   Why should He do this Shadow?  Is this a PEACEFUL (descriptive word of the GOSPEL) and ultimately, PRODUCTIVE conclusion?  He CAN save them, but... just doesn't "want to"? 

Is that how YOU OBSERVE the characteristics of LOVE?  Observing LOVE for the MOST PART, as ...INDIFFERENT? 

What happened to "GOD so LOVED the WORLD [creation in its entirety]" Shadow?   

BTW... might I remind you that STATEMENTS made by GOD are EVERLASTING...  So if HE SAYS... that He "so LOVED" the World... then He ALWAYS does LOVE the world, and ALWAYS WILL ...LOVE the World...

]Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Well, how about this:  John 1:29 ...behold [if you are able] the Lamb of GOD, which TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD...... if it is TAKEN AWAY... how is it STILL PRESENT - to be used against "the WORLD"?

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

This Scripture is noting THIS GROUP: 

Phil 2:10-11 ...that at the Name of JESUS, ...EVERY knee should bow of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth... AND that EVERY TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the GLORY of GOD the Father...

and that CONFESSION comes in THIS MANNER:

1 Cor 12:3  ...wherefore I give you to UNDERSTAND, that NO MAN speaking by the SPIRIT of GOD calleth JESUS accursed, and that NO MAN CAN say that JESUS CHRIST is LORD ...but BY the HOLY GHOST

which RESULTS in:

Rom 10:10  for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the MOUTH... CONFESSION is made UNTO SALVATION

Rom 10:13  For WHOSOEVER shall CALL upon the NAME of the LORD [Every TONGUE that CONFESSES] ...SHALL ...BE ...SAVED...

What of ALL THAT, sister Shadow? 

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die

ALL sinners DIE sister S...  the "LIVING SOUL" is composed of the EARTH combined with the BREATH of LIFE (GOD is LIFE)...

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

this verse does not establish your case...  This is just saying that we ALL stand alone and accountable for our lives before GOD... and BEFORE we give that account in RESURRECTION, we shall ...DIE... (return to the DUST from which we CAME)

I don't think death means eternal life with torment in hell, it means death as in ceasing to exist altogether, I also don't see how one comes out of non-existence, once one is cast into the lake of fire

Guess it depends on your understanding or lack of understanding, as to WHAT and WHEN the Lake of FIRE is... 

THIS LIFE, is the LAKE of FIRE sister Shadow... The LOF is NOT HELL, for HELL [grave/hades] is CAST INTO IT...  Here in THIS LIFE do we experience DEATH and the GRAVE [hell/hades]...

And I think there is definitely going to be very severe punishments in store

This is nothing but the promotion of FEAR,  ...to which the WORD says THIS:

1 John 4:18  ...there is NO FEAR [terror] in LOVE; but PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR... because FEAR hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH is NOT MADE PERFECT, ...in LOVE.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

THEM that KNOW NOT GOD... are not MEN... rather are the DEEDS of MEN...

JESUS said: 

Luke 23:34 Father FORGIVE THEM [men], for they KNOW NOT, what they ...DO [deeds]...

The WRATH of GOD is against THE DEEDS of MEN... not MEN... MEN are LOVED by GOD:

Rom 1:18  For the WRATH of God ...IS... revealed from Heaven ...AGAINST... ALL ...ungodliness and unrighteousness... OF MEN, who hold the TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

JESUS said:

John 14:6  ...I am the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE...

The TRUTH is also the LIFE... and MEN that [unknowingly] DO unrighteous things, are "holding" LIFE and TRUTH hostage in that unrighteousness...

CHRIST is either REVEALED or VEILED... but is PRESENT in ALL... He is the INWARD man... (Rom 7:22)

And we will be held accountable for what we say or do

Correct... that "account" is "facing the music" of WHO and WHAT we UNKNOWINGLY were while in this life... and the SHAME of that account is either COVERED in the GARMENT of CHRIST... (provided by GOD), or REVEALED in SHAME before YHVH:

Rev 3:18  I counsel [advise] thee to buy [obtain] of Me, GOLD tried IN FIRE [lake of FIRE - JESUS experienced His "TRIALS" in THIS LIFE], that thou mayest be RICH, and white RAIMENT [garment], that thou mayest be CLOTHED, and that the SHAME of thy NAKEDNESS [unrighteousness], do NOT APPEAR, and annoint thine eyes with eye-salve that thou mayest see.

That's enough for me, ...Though it is not my agenda to change your beliefs (which are pretty GRIM), ...I truly hope you got some new insight here... 

For the TRUE message of the GOSPEL is the GOSPEL of PEACE... (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15) not of TERROR or FEAR... which things are NOT a part of LOVE...

Believe what you will... 


peacE...
willieH    

[alihaymeg]

I also love this thread because it is a platform for all to share their background and fellowship with one another.

I attend a Christian College (Church of Christ) and have had a lot of Bible classes in the last 4 years. My belief in (UR) has not been met with much enthusiasm by my instructors, but I am not able to remain silent when they start spouting about (ET). 

Today in Introduction to Missions class I had a realization. We all draw meaning from scripture (and life in general for that matter) through a series of filters. In my field (Psychology) we call them schema. A schema is formed when we use available information to formulate a belief. That belief then will dictate how we see anything associated with that concept. These schema are a part of our surival instinct. They help guide us through experiential learning. Two other concepts must be understood to get the full effect. When new information is presented, we either assimilate it (recognize it and add it to our base of knowledge), accommodate for it (change our schema because of new information that is more accurate), or reject it. These filters control our opinions. All of us are exposed to the schema of others as we are growing and maturing. We are largely a product of our environment. Most of our beliefs are built on the teachings of our parents and those we view as being knowledgeable. In regards to religion and spiritual beliefs, we all place filters in the way as we learn from others. Here is an example of what I mean:

{There is a God}{God is love}{Jesus is real}{Jesus died}{Jesus rose from the grave}{Jesus is the son of God}{God punishes some eternally}{Must be saved to go to heaven}{Must be baptized}{must say the words}{only my church is right}{must tithe}{must attend services}{the trinity}{homosexuals are damned}

...and the list goes on and on. These schema filter out any information that does not fit into the narrow picture of what these beliefs allow. It is my contention that these strict rules limit our ability to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. They cause us to reject anything that does not fit regardless of the source, even if it is the voice of the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus said that we must become like little children if we are to understand the things that we need to know. That means stripping away all of the religious filters that we can. The fewer the strict rules, the more teachable we become. Only the basic ones in the previous list are definite and essential. The previous list used to be my string of schema regarding religion. I started stripping them away as much as possible.

The last few were easy.
{There is a God}{God is love}{Jesus is real}{Jesus died}{Jesus rose from the grave}{Jesus is the son of God}{God punishes some eternally}{Must be saved to go to heaven}{Must be baptized}{must say the words}{only my church is right}{must tithe}{must attend services}

I had to question myself on the next few and decide if they were as a result of my experiences and studying the word, or if they were assumptions based on the teaching of others. So, they dropped away as well.
{There is a God}{God is love}{Jesus is real}{Jesus died}{Jesus rose from the grave}{Jesus is the son of God}{God punishes some eternally}{Must be saved to go to heaven}{Must be baptized}{must say the words}

At this point, I could go no further. But why? It was that pesky eternal punishment schema that was keeping me from losing some of the other ones. So, I looked into that one. What I found at the very least gave me a reason to drop everything after that off and start the learning process again. Because what I believed was not the result of my own seeking and searching but the opinions and teachings of others. So they fell off.
{There is a God}{God is love}{Jesus is real}{Jesus died}{Jesus rose from the grave}{Jesus is the son of God}

That left me with the core of the gospel of Jesus Christ. All of the other schema must be believed in order to be a Christian. I'm sure we can all agree on those points. (Let me know if I'm wrong about that)

When something becomes a set criteria instead of a parameter, we become inflexible and un-teachable.
Matthew 18:3 (Young's Literal Translation)

 3and said, `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;

Now, if you are filtering this verse through the schema of eternal punishment, you may read it to mean that we must be like children to enter heaven or avoid eternal torment. The message is much simpler than that. Jesus is talking about becoming teachable. He is telling His disciples who were debating which one of them would be greatest in this new order that only the meek and humble and teachable will be able to walk in the Spirit.

He goes on to say that whoever receives one who is childlike receives Him also. He is talking about walking in love with those who may not be as discerning or as advanced in their understanding. We must guard ourselves against judgment and argumentativeness.
4whoever then may humble himself as this child, he is the greater in the reign of the heavens.

 5`And he who may receive one such child in my name, doth receive me,

 6and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

 7`Wo to the world from the stumbling-blocks! for there is a necessity for the stumbling-blocks to come, but wo to that man through whom the stumbling-block doth come!

We must be sure that we are not the source of the stumbling blocks. If we refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to do His job in leading a person to the truth, and we insist on forcing them to believe as we do, then we are in grave danger of judgment.

The next section is where a lot of people fall into the (ET) trap, but this literal translation shows the limited duration of the torments spoken of.
8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

 9`And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

 10`Beware! -- ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

Jesus is talking about humility and avoiding reaping judgment in this life for being intolerant and forceful with those who are just learning. It has absolutely nothing to do with any other place than right here and now.

Why? I'll let Jesus say it.
11for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.

 12`What think ye? if a man may have an hundred sheep, and there may go astray one of them, doth he not -- having left the ninety-nine, having gone on the mountains -- seek that which is gone astray?

 13and if it may come to pass that he doth find it, verily I say to you, that he doth rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that have not gone astray;

 14so it is not will in presence of your Father who is in the heavens, that one of these little ones may perish.

It is God's will that all be reconciled to Him. Jesus confirmed it right here. We have placed upon the shoulders of the most high our own human understanding of retribution and punishment. No greater sin has any man committed than attributing such horrible imperfection to God who is perfect in every way.

So, do we have to gather in a church building in order to be in the will of God? Not according to this next section.
 15`And if thy brother may sin against thee, go and show him his fault between thee and him alone, if he may hear thee, thou didst gain thy brother;

 16and if he may not hear, take with thee yet one or two, that by the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may stand.

 17`And if he may not hear them, say [it] to the assembly, and if also the assembly he may not hear, let him be to thee as the heathen man and the tax-gatherer.

 18`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

 19`Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens,

 20for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'

The members of the body are the Church. It is not some building or institution. We should fellowship everywhere we are together, drawing strength from one another as we work, and play, and study, and live together. I'm not suggesting that you leave your church. I'm just pointing out that we are to be in fellowship at all times with each other and God, not just in a formal setting.

When we make hard line rules that force people to think in only one direction, we are limiting the Holy Spirit and trying to do His job for Him. Simplify your schema so that you can become teachable again.

[jabcat]

From an old therapist of 25 years, and a long(er) time believer (in Yeshua..UR only 2 years) .

[rosered]

 
  that was an awesome message  alihaymeg 

[Barbara]

My early beginings was attendeing the " Reorganized Latter Saints " My Grandfather was a minister and I remember attending church. We were told much about Joseph Smith and little about Jesus. We were taught that Jesus was going to return to Independence, Missouri, a revelation  given to Joseph. As a child I always had thoughts about God. When I met my husand he was a Luthern and had attended Luthern school for 8 years. He was turned off by religion because of the way his parents acted before church. It was a lot of fighting.
In 1973 I became a born again Christian and began my journey in God. That was the height of the Charsmatic movement.I remember going to Kansas City in 1977 to a big movement with thousands of Christains of all denominations. We were on a bus with about 15 nuns who were attending . There was a big Catholic movement out of Michigan and was amazing how so many different churches came together. After that we got involved in Dicipleship with the 5 teachers out of Mobile , Alabama. That movement was not accepted and was considered a cult.At the same time we had the Word of Faith Movement and was introduced to Bill Gothard.(totally opposite word of faith) Talk about a lot of confusion. The bottom line for me was trying to believe in the doctrine of hell when right from the begining of knowing that God was real that doctrine did not make sense. I struggled with it for over 22 years until I came upon a site By L. Ray Smith and it changed everything.I know that I could never go back to any church that believes in eternal torment but I do miss some of the life. It means a lot to us humans that we have the only truth.That seems to be the bottom line in any religion is that we have the only truth. From the time I was little my Dad told me that. It would be good to explore that concept and how it makes us feel and makes us special. Even as we come to UR we think that we are special because God showed it to us. I dont have any answers but I do see as long as we believe we have the truth and others don't it elevates us.

[alihaymeg]

We call it an in-group bias in social psychology. We excuse any shortcomings in our in-group by attributing them to situational factors while seeing outgroupers as doing wrong because it is in their nature. We generalize what we see in a few of the outgroupers to the entire group. The remedy is to expand our in-group. We are all Christians.

[Nathan]

Just wanted to briefly touch on a couple comments dealing with those who do or don't attend a church.  To be honest, if I were not a Pastor of a church, I probably wouldn't attend one either.  There just aren't many churches out there that are able to accept not just UR but dimensional things either.  I enjoyed my time immensly while at AG those 20 years.  But there is this pull in me to be a trumpet . . .I love the flutes, but I beleive I've been equipped as a trumpet.  And I notice through some comments here and there on this thread that there are others of the same thinking as well.  Meaning that it's not long before you feel the urge to share what you see with others and you can no longer keep it in you. 

I just think this is a natural process that the Spirit manifests in us as we mature into the freedom of who we really are in him.  We're to do as was commanded of the trees in Genesis . .to reproduce after our own kind . .and when you have this great spiritual awakening within you, it causes you to desire to reproduce this life in others.  The thing is, I'm not so sure it's for the "church" as much as it is for the "world".  The church has already set it's boundaries up and where we are on most things, are outside those boundaries.

When the time comes that I'm no longer welcome in this denomination I currently pastor, I will not stop being a pastor.  I will continue to gather with those who are hungry for more than what the church has to offer . .or is willing to offer.  I will simply get licensed through an organization that is not as restrictive and continue advancing in the kingdom where I am.

I don't hold it against people who don't go to church.  I can understand their frustrations.  I believe we "are" the salt of the earth . .but traditional church's want to pile all the salt up in one room . . .they look at salt as being a preservation of dead flesh.  That's not what I believe we are here for.  I believe our purpose as salt is to make the body thirsty for the freedom and Truth in Christ.  I think . . .I feel . .and I believe the mainline church has become that salt that has lost it's savor.

Even while saying that, I hesitate in doing so because we all got to where we are through process.  Some "need" to first experience the conformity of those churches as it's a part of their maturing process. So I'm really not here to knock the church as much as I am to trumpet the truth that there is so much more than the church has been telling us.  There are churches out there that are experiencing the freedom in truth and I believe there will be more and more and more . . .but it feels like this generation where we are is a generation of pioneers.  We are called and chosen to be the ones that spread the truth and realign our hearts with the original frame of truth in Christ.

So much for being brief.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan,

Great Post.