Author Topic: ALL forms of Universalism are False: Hell is real and literal Eternal Torment  (Read 6538 times)

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Offline shawn

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Very sad.

Agreed.  This kind of thinking truly disturbs me.  To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad.  To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ. 

I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse?  At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering.  What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World.  They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering.  It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.

Offline shawn

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He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason... [sarcasm] Since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too. 

Luke 9:54 ...Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Amen!

What a good word today!

Offline WhiteWings

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Very sad.

Agreed.  This kind of thinking truly disturbs me.  To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad.  To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ. 

I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse?  At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering.  What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World.  They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering.  It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.
We quite often disagree but this time
:high5:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,]  I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.

You know what I mean.  The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.

Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did?  YES.  He ruined the lives of millions of people.

I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.

But, he is also a God of mercy.

goodreport

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When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,]  I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.

You know what I mean.  The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.

Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did?  YES.  He ruined the lives of millions of people.

I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.

But, he is also a God of mercy.


Molly, your very candid reply adding the truth that God is a God of mercy reminded me of one of the daily devotionals of Ray Prinzing that I've been invited to review... it's based on

2 Cor 5:14-15
Wuest gives a beautiful translation:  For the love which Christ has for me presses on me from all sides, holding me to one end and prohibiting me from considering any other, wrapping itself around me in tenderness, giving me an impelling motive, having brought me to this conclusion, namely, that One died on behalf of all."


"This is truly being held together, when love presses on us from all sides, and holds us to one glorious viewpoint - LOVE'S VIEW, and so girds up our mind that we are prohibited from considering any other, until we become one in the truth that CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, TO GIVE LIFE TO ALL."

"Love that girds the mind until no evil thoughts ensue,
  Love that covers EVERY sin, forgiveness to imbue,
Love that lasts beyond all time, negation to subdue,
  Love that turns ALL loss to gain, creation to renew."


Offline shawn

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When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,]  I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.

You know what I mean.  The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.

Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did?  YES.  He ruined the lives of millions of people.

I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.

But, he is also a God of mercy.

I certainly hope God doesn't act justly, if so I am in a heap of trouble.  I prefer grace for me...my kin...my fellow man and yes even Hitler.

Offline shawn

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Very sad.

Agreed.  This kind of thinking truly disturbs me.  To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad.  To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ. 

I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse?  At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering.  What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World.  They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering.  It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.
We quite often disagree but this time
:high5:

The conclusion is the same...we just take a different path to the truth :)  It's actually nice to know people as studied as yourself agree with something placed in my heart as a young child.  It's wonderful to see how that works together to glorify God.

Offline Molly

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When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,]  I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.

You know what I mean.  The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.

Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did?  YES.  He ruined the lives of millions of people.

I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.

But, he is also a God of mercy.


Molly, your very candid reply adding the truth that God is a God of mercy reminded me of one of the daily devotionals of Ray Prinzing that I've been invited to review... it's based on

2 Cor 5:14-15
Wuest gives a beautiful translation:  For the love which Christ has for me presses on me from all sides, holding me to one end and prohibiting me from considering any other, wrapping itself around me in tenderness, giving me an impelling motive, having brought me to this conclusion, namely, that One died on behalf of all."


"This is truly being held together, when love presses on us from all sides, and holds us to one glorious viewpoint - LOVE'S VIEW, and so girds up our mind that we are prohibited from considering any other, until we become one in the truth that CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, TO GIVE LIFE TO ALL."

"Love that girds the mind until no evil thoughts ensue,
  Love that covers EVERY sin, forgiveness to imbue,
Love that lasts beyond all time, negation to subdue,
  Love that turns ALL loss to gain, creation to renew."

That is a beautiful translation of that verse.  Thank you for that, and for your whole post.

But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets...and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be.
 Dan 2
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 10:39:01 PM by Molly »

Alumina

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Again, PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST that He created HELLFIRE, ETERNAL Hell, for the Devil and his fallen angels, and, all of those who refuse to trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE as God in the flesh and their only Eternal Savior are considered spiritually to be children of the DEVIL according to the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
John 1:12 is clear: It states the ONE and ONLY condition for becoming a CHILD OF GOD: BELIEF in JESUS CHRIST. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name



Here is something Biblical but revolutionary for the people here to grasp:
The eternal fire in HELL is an example of God's LOVE and MERCY. Does that sound shocking? Here is why:

NOBODY will suddenly wake up once their soul leaves their body and they realize Jesus is real and they are now in Hell. They become hardened like their spiritual father the Devil. Notice the rich man never asked to be let out of Hell, he knew it would be of no use. Notice in Revelation that even as the LORD sends plagues and judgements down upon the people who follow the Beast, they do not repent, instead they admit God is doing it and hate Him all the more and curse Him the text says. That right there destroys the ideas that claim eventually everyone will trust in Jesus.  Now, imagine all of these people in Hell: Millions upon millions of unsaved haters of God and haters of the Lord Jesus Christ, all together. Nazis, murderers, rapists, thieves, you name it, and everyone in between, who died refusing the Lord Jesus as their only eternal Savior. Do you know what they would do to each other? Then you add all of the fallen angels and devils and demons in that lot.
They would attack and eternally vex each other. It would be horrific! The fire in Hell is actually a merciful act sent by God to keep them from attacking and enslaving and shredding each other. It is like an eternal quarantine.  Parents think about it like this: If your child who you love was targetted by a man who was infected with a deadly disease and his goal was to infect and destroy your child, would you not do everything within your power to keep that person away from your child? That is how God views the hardened unsaved person who refuses to trust in Jesus Christ: He or she is a walking heap of death and if allowed that death would spread. THE ONLY CURE is JESUS, faith alone in HIM ALONE. Then we are cleansed and justified forever.

Regarding the Bible verse about every knee shall bow and every toungue will confess. YES. That is true. But most of those people will do it before the Lord throws them into HELLFIRE to burn forever. That is a scene from the Great White Throne Judgement which is for unsaved people only.

If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as God the Eternal Messiah Savior alone for eternal life, not faith plus anything else, then praise God, you do not have to fear Hell. Hell is to be feared for the UNSAVED> Jesus said do not fear he who can kill the body but HE, God, who can destroy (torment forever) BOTH body AND soul in HELL.

Why do you mute and water down the warnings of Jesus to the LOST?

By the way, I love you people here in this forum. I thank you and appreciate the opportunity to have discussions with you.

To any sensitive born again Christians here: Please do not misunderstand me. I love you as my fellow family in the Lord Jesus. I understand that this world and life is full of sorrow, pain, and bad things. Know this: If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, Jesus is there for you. HE loves you precious child of God. Never ever fear HELL if you are a saved person.

To those people here who refuse to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, plus NOTHING ELSE (Not Jesus plus water baptism or good works etc), you need to turn to Jesus now and be saved before you end up burning in Hellfire forever.



For those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer.

Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that? This person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell.    Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?


Offline jugghead

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There is only one thing I would like to say to that:

Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline urpilgrim

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Alumina, you said...
"Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that? This person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell.    Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?"

Short answer... yes

I would say the same that Jesus said from the cross "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do (or say)"

This person is living in a lot of hurt.... But when the light of His love shines on his soul, his heart of stone will also turn to flesh.... and he will finally know how loved he truely he is.
If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!

Offline WhiteWings

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For those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer.
It only seems that way to people who have no clue what that passage is about...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Alumina what would you imagine Jesus would do to that man? Fry him? Torture him? Spit in his face? No. Possibly weep over him. Love him to pieces. Our Lord loves the "unlovable". He IS love. I can guarantee you that atheist does not hate God, he hates what the church has portrayed as the character of God - a cruel and unjust vindictive merciless tyrant. Praise God for His true plan and His true nature - universal reconciliation to Love, when God will be all in ALL. Blessings to you dear one. <3
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline reFORMer

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Clearly Alumina hasn't read the posts we left for him since he's last been here.  Glance at no more than one or two, and certainly not read even them.  He alludes to having a "conversation" with us.  I don't think he is complying with what it means to have a conversation.  Maybe I'm too grumpy, but somewhere Proverbs says, "A fool delights in only hearing his own opinion."

So many aren't properly taught the basics of Biblical Christianity, the foundations of a spiritual life, or even good manners.  Otherwise they'd realize that our opinions about the future, either near at hand or distant future, do not altogether determine if we have a relationship with God.  It affects that relationship and, colors it.  Nevertheless, at some point not much more progress can be made without submission to the Spirit of Truth.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life?
If you search internet you find testemonies of atheists, muslims, etc who converted to Christianity for some reason (vision, study, etc).
Do you believe it's possible they have become genuine Christians? If so does that possiblity stop at death?

Quote
Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that?
Blinded just like you are. You must keep in mind it's your hellish doctrine (among other things) that caused so many turn away from God.


Quote
This person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell.    Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?
Yes.
It's simple. Many don't believe in religion, Christianity or otherwise, because they can't find scientific proof for God. But who needs proof if they meet God face to face?
That goes beyond believing. Then it's simply called "knowing".
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
What did Jesus say to Peter.....?
Mat 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."


Quote
Notice the rich man never asked to be let out of Hell, he knew it would be of no use.
Notice that is a parable. It isn't about hell at all. It's about Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles having the water. Water = spiritual insight.


Quote
Notice in Revelation that even as the LORD sends plagues and judgements down upon the people who follow the Beast, they do not repent, instead they admit God is doing it and hate Him all the more and curse Him the text says.
What about the people that died long before that event? What about people who died before Jesus was born? Etc

Quote
Regarding the Bible verse about every knee shall bow and every toungue will confess. YES. That is true. But most of those people will do it before the Lord throws them into HELLFIRE to burn forever. That is a scene from the Great White Throne Judgement which is for unsaved people only.
God breaks His promise?
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.

Quote
Why do you mute and water down the warnings of Jesus to the LOST?
Why do you ridicule the Bible and twist it into a book of hate and retribution?


Quote
By the way, I love you people here in this forum.
Really? Should you keep us away from your children and set up afire as an act of mercey?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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This guy can't be for real.  I suspect a UR guy playing a role as a teaching point.  I can't believe a reasonable human being would make the points I am reading above.  Hellfire is merciful?  To keep the unsaved from "ripping each other apart"?  Seriously?  So instead of "vexing" each other they burn?  These doctrines turn my stomach.  I mean what Bible verses support this nonsense of merciful hellfire?

Offline WhiteWings

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This guy can't be for real.
Could be. But then Jabcat and Gary are part of that test too.

Could be role playing. But I'm sure there are people that seriously mean such nonsense.
I call it getting God of the hook.
God is the good guy. That means hell must be good also.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Yeah, we've had some discussions as to how long to let this play out.  Sometimes these are useful for awhile, get some good responses, but at some point....
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jugghead

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if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:

The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline KingKenny

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Alumina wrote:
Quote
Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that?

I used to laugh at all religious folk because I believed all gods were extra-terrestrials. That very belief system was broken one morning without me even asking for it. I was living life in peace without a care in the world. So, if God can seek me out in an instant act of breaking down my former barriers in the space of a few hours, then I'm sure (and hopeful) that He can work on everyone else.

Otherwise, doesn't that make God lazy and a respector of persons (those saved only), which the Bible says he is not? (Acts 10:34).

Offline WhiteWings

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if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:

The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
True. But some people are so brainwashed, blinded, etc that they really can't see it otherwise. Likely many are also very scared to even study an alternative because every path not being their own leads to hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jugghead

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if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:

The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
True. But some people are so brainwashed, blinded, etc that they really can't see it otherwise. Likely many are also very scared to even study an alternative because every path not being their own leads to hell.

If that is not truth, I do not know what is, it was that blindness and fear that I was saved from
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline happycheeks

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Again, PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST that He created HELLFIRE, ETERNAL Hell, for the Devil and his fallen angels, and, all of those who refuse to trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE as God in the flesh and their only Eternal Savior are considered spiritually to be children of the DEVIL according to the LORD JESUS CHRIST! b]The devil is the carnal mind. We are all from God. Who else made us? Sorry but what you said sounds sick. I'm shocked. I pray God will show you the love He has. I pray God will show you the truth. Seek the LORD on these following questions and ask these questions within your own heart yourself also:
Do your children deserve to be endlessly tortured by you, the parent? (no matter how disobedient your children are)
If not, then why do you believe you yourself deserves to be endlessly tortured by GOD our Father?
If so, then what is the purpose of having children in the first place?
[/color]

Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
John 1:12 is clear: It states the ONE and ONLY condition for becoming a CHILD OF GOD: BELIEF in JESUS CHRIST. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name



Here is something Biblical but revolutionary for the people here to grasp:
The eternal fire in HELL is an example of God's LOVE and MERCY. Erm...Nope. That is some sort of bribery. the turn or burn thing, that isn't true love, it's false love. A true father would look after HIS children. He would not want His children to suffer forever. God is full of love.







To those people here who refuse to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, plus NOTHING ELSE (Not Jesus plus water baptism or good works etc), you need to turn to Jesus now and be saved before you end up burning in Hellfire forever.

Nope, I'm fine without christianity. I'm better off not being a christian because of the damage it does to people. This hellfire stuff has made me so depressed before. Christianity isn't number one. And another thing to think about. Why are there so many near death experiences heavenly? From what I have read about 100 experiences and more and most of them were heavenly.

[/size][/b]

For those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer. I would rather prove there isn't eternal hell with NDEs. Most of the ones I have read from people are heavenly. And also, truly pray to God. I have, He has shown me the truth.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 02:23:31 AM by happycheeks »
ღ Dieu est amour ღ

Offline jugghead

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It is not just a matter of being saved from sin, it is a matter of being saved from our ignorance (the lack of understanding) of love, of God; for GOD IS LOVE.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding