Author Topic: ALL forms of Universalism are False: Hell is real and literal Eternal Torment  (Read 9227 times)

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Offline Sherman

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Don't put all the blame on King James Version.  [and btw, what IS the judgment of Gehenna?  It doesn't sound so pleasant.]
My post was not meant to put all the blame on the KJV.  I meant to point out that "IF" one is a "KJV only" believer then that significantly hinders one from even considering the possibility of UR regardless of all the scriptures that affirm UR because Hell is all over the place in the KJV.  With Hell being named in 64 places in the KJV, one almost cannot help but believe in Hell.

Concerning the judgment of one being cast in Hinnom Valley, yes it is certainly not "pleasant" and I did not affirm such.  Sin results in death, destruction, continuing and increasing slavery to evil, etc.  Just because it doesn't imply ECT, does not mean that such is not tragic - weeping, wailing, grinding of teeth in regret and remorse over all the evil one has fostered and participated in.  And notice, such warnings are especially for believers, for the children of God.  To whom much is given, much is required. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Why was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?

Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.

Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.

Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.

Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.

The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

--Mat 16:18

Offline jabcat

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Well, alumina literally hasn't been back.  Came online to post the OP, 16 minutes later was gone and hasn't been back.    :dunno2:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline reFORMer

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Well he sure had me convinced, what with his spouting Bible verses all over the place and such like!  NOT ! ! !
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:56:48 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Case closed :P

Light 1 : Darkness 0
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jugghead

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An unrighteous judge bases his decision on only one side of the case and does not take into consideration the testimony of all witnesses, and IMO all testimonies (all witnesses) have not yet been heard by the prosecution (ETer's), therefore the case is still open, But we can rejoice in the fact that we know they will hear and understand when all is said and done.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline lomarah

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Maybe alumina came back as a guest, saw all the posts and got scared away LOL. It's a daunting task trying to answer multiple posts from people who obviously disagree with you 100% lol.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline happycheeks

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Alumina's post makes me so angry. Well think about it, everyone is from God since God created us all and put us in our mother's womb. People who say Jesus cannot save everyone is calling Jesus a failure and plus Jesus cannot be the saviour if He cannot save everyone. If we were all going to hell, Jesus might as well not have died for our sins. Oh, God shouldn't have bothered. Obviously, he or she posted to annoy us all. There is hell on earth. I have been through hell. People go through enough crap as it is. They don't need to realise there might be more torture in the afterlife! I would rather not exist if that happened. Life wouldn't mean anything to me. I rather die and kill myself. We don't need preachers telling us we're bad and we're the worst people ever. I feel angry. I'm fed up with people who tell us there might be eternal hell. It's surprising most near death experiences atheists have are heavenly and christians have hellish ones. It tells me something. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 11:13:05 PM by happycheeks »
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Offline happycheeks

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:@@@@@@@
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Offline jabcat

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Maybe alumina came back as a guest, saw all the posts and got scared away LOL. It's a daunting task trying to answer multiple posts from people who obviously disagree with you 100% lol.

That could be.  I may send him an email telling him he's got some good replies to respond to.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline jabcat

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I did, maybe he'll come back and we can have more good discussion.   :thumbsup:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline WhiteWings

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Hell comes back?   :dunno2:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Alumina

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Lazarus was already a believer in Jesus when he physically died, before Jesus made him rise from the dead. Lazarus the poor man, he too was saved, as the text states clearly.

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement is clear. This one life is all we get, if we are able to accept or reject the Lord Jesus as our Savior. There is no indication that anyone gets a second or more chance.

When Jesus preached to people and led captivity captive, between His death and resurrection, that was Him declaring His victory over Satan and the devils, no lost persons were getting second chances.

Yes, we were all born lost children of wrath but at the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus as our only eternal Savior we become children of God. John 1:12







It is possible to go from children of satan to children of God, isn't it?

and were by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3

Why could this happen only in this life and in this age?

Seems like a short time to get eternity right.

Is there anything that states that we have only this life span to get it right?

Remember Jesus led captivity captive when he ascended on high.

Why did those get another chance?  Weren't they already 'dead'?

He raises Lazarus from the dead.  why did he get another chance?

Alumina

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PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!

I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with. There would be no eternal justice. People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?

The Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone. Don't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words. There are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.


Jesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it. Most of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever. They will be in a state of concious, endless torment. I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.


Offline jabcat

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Very sad.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline reFORMer

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I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with. There would be no eternal justice.


The evil in us is dealt with by the Holy Ghost in us.  He makes us one with Jesus in His obedient life, one with Jesus in His death, one with Jesus in His resurrection, and one with Jesus in His ascension.  He is making us into "a perfect man, unto the measue of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 413)  A better or worse state in death is never described in the Bible as what Jesus came to bring us.

People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?

The phase, "Go to heaven" never occurs in relation to anything in the Bible.  Heaven is not our destination.  Rather as I quoted earlier in this thread, heaven is our origin, where we come from, and it is our present dwelling place.  We are aiming for a better resurrection.  The one thing Paul says that he is doing (so you should know it is very important) is to strive to, "...attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead." (Philippians 3)

How wonderful if Hitler had been saved before He died; but, as Peter says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 46)  On the other hand, there is nothing in the Bible that says God's brace ceases once you die.  Nothing there says death determines our destiny.  God will continue to do whatever it takes to process people until they are purified and can continue on into the glory of God.  God is the Father of Spirits. (Hebrews 12)  And, He will purify all His creation until "God is all in all." (1 Corithians 15)

Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away."  Instead of heaven we are aiming for a better resurrection.  The one thing Paul says that he is doing (so you should know it is very important) is to strive to, "...attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead." (Philippians 3)  Quote the Bible for what we are to believe or no Christian should believe what you say.

The Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone. Don't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words. There are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.

Of course nothing in any Bible, Greek and Hebrew or King James English, ever says forget the original languages God spoke with or that the KJV is God's preserved words.  You are embarassing yourself!

Jesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it.

He actually said everybody is entering in, either through the broad way of destruction (which is much of how I had to enter) or through the narrow and hard way.  The paths and the portals are not the destination; God is.

Most of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever.

Nothing in the Bible anywhere says any of that.  Find the verse to quote or you're only another blind guide, repeating the tradition of your Father.  Jesus says "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one." (Matthew 1338)  Jesus didn't say the widerness was the world.  When you see people hoeing they aren't in the middle of the wildernes; rather, they're in a garden.  Most of the field is not weeds!  It's almost all good grain!  You don't see most of the human race.  God does, and He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason.

They will be in a state of concious, endless torment.

Naughty, naughty...no quotations again!  Pitiful the total lack of Scripture to quote for something so horrible for any kind person to ever even think.  Remember, God is making us in His image and likeness.  That means, since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too.  That is what the thought they were doing when we were burned at the stake for having Scripture in our native tongues.  But the reality of becoming a Master Torturer in God's image for ever...my conscience won't allow it.  Thankfully nothing like this can be quoated from the Bible record.

I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.

No merit is possible for Adam in whom all die.  We are not saved by faith.  We are saved by grace through faith.  Grace is God acting on our behalf.  We cannot get him to do it.  He does it because He loves us, all of us.  "When we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly."  When?  He's the potter and we're the clay.  All we can offer is an innate resistance.  "The first vessel was marred under His hand." (Jeremiah)  "Afterward He made a vessel according to His own good pleasure."  He didn't say when.  "Even as in Adam all die, so also in Christ are all made alive."

Stealing an apple when you're hungry is not stealing, it is provided for under the laws of Moses.  However, if you steal a basket of apples you  owe four baskets of apples, not a never ending infinity of apples.  If all the sins of everybody, every weak, ignorant, sin bent, short lived human was laid on one man to pay for, he'd eventually come to the end of it.

Wait, this actually happened.  It says He died and went to hell for three days.  So, why do you think our payment would be for ever?  Nothing says sin is infinite and cannot be paid for.  Jesus did that, paid for all sin, and it was not in vain.  If it was for ever then for Jesus to pay for it would mean He would have to be being tortured now and for ever.  This just isn't happening.  Scripture says death can no longer touch Him.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:32:24 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline jabcat

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He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason... [sarcasm] Since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too. 

Luke 9:54 ...Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline WhiteWings

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Very sad.
It's not theology but pure hate. Loving misery of others.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!

I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!

To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves.  This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means.  "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame.  While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly.  You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility.  What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!

I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with.
Proof?

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There would be no eternal justice. People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?
Is that all you got?
What if Stalin repented on his death bed? Does that save him? Does that make him a good man?
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The Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone.
What about the OT people? Did He die for their sins too? Do they have a chance to turn toward Jesus after death? Or did they just have bad luck they were born before Jesus started His Ministry?

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

What does that verse mean to you? Did Jesus forgive them or not? Did Father honor His request to forgive them?
Needles to say the Romans weren't the biggest believers in Jesus.....
Did Jesus just waste His breath speaking those words?

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Don't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words.
I'm sure of that. Your doctrine ís founded on crappy translation. You are a coward that's scared of discussion. Scared of thinking. Scared of Light.
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There are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.
By your demonicly inspired translators.
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Jesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it.
Serious Christians I would advise to study that word "destruction".

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Most of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever. They will be in a state of concious, endless torment. I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.
Lots of barking like the hellhound you are. But insurprisingly to cowardly to really attack. You denominatial teeth will be pulled out one by one.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!

I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!

To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves.  This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means.  "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame.  While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly.  You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility.  What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
Compared with Alu's sick doctrine Hitler was a good guy. He had some fun with the Jews and then killed them.
But the holy ones like Alu worship an imaginary god that takes His Son and saints for a picnick at the Lake of Fire to listens to the the sounds that glorifies them.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!

I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!

To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves.  This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means.  "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame.  While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly.  You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility.  What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
Compared with Alu's sick doctrine Hitler was a good guy. He had some fun with the Jews and then killed them.
But the holy ones like Alu worship an imaginary god that takes His Son and saints for a picnick at the Lake of Fire to listens to the the sounds that glorifies them.


Tony, you know how I've said I know many kind, loving people who believe there's an eternal torment, not because they want to or because they like it, but they just believe that's God's way because that's what they've been taught and what they believe the Bible teaches?   I remember my dad who believed in eternal hell saying to me before he passed away - with a kind, broken spirit and possibly even with a tear in his eye - "I don't want anybody to go to hell".

This is not one of those cases.   :sorry:  In fact, although I know this type of extreme, irrational view does exist, (there are people who play with venomous snakes and think they're pleasing God, for crying out loud!), still, I wonder if this is for real, or if this is someone "pulling our leg"...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:42:49 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline Molly

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Quote from: Alumina
But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this

Amen!


For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

--Rom 14:11

Offline WhiteWings

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Tony, you know how I've said I know many kind, loving people who believe there's an eternal torment, not because they want to or because they like it, but they just believe that's God's way because that's what they've been taught and what they believe the Bible teaches?   I remember my dad who believed in eternal hell saying to me before he passed away - with a kind, broken spirit and possibly even with a tear in his eye - "I don't want anybody to go to hell".
Believe with all your heart.... He didn't. (that's a compliment)
Your father was wrong in his religious views but from your quote it seems he had a heart. His heart/spirit within basicly fought his doctrine/mind.
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This is not one of those cases.   :sorry:
Heart of steel. Mind of a viper. Acid for blood.
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In fact, although I know this type of extreme, irrational view does exist, (there are people who play with venomous snakes and think they're pleasing God, for crying out loud!), still, I wonder if this is for real, or if this is someone "pulling our leg"...
What about pulling the plug?  :talkangry:
Alu is a troll or the patients in psy ward have internet....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...