Author Topic: What exactly happened last night???  (Read 8630 times)

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Offline shawn

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 06:31:17 PM »
The pain of yielding to the flesh is yet another tool God uses in the sanctification process.  If we can sin and not feel remorse then I believe something is not quite right with our walk.  Read Romans 7 and 8 in the MSG, through biblegateway.  Read about Paul's anguish in the flesh.  In that translation his battle really came to life for me.  It hurt him.  It's painful.  Pain is part of the process.

I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures.  But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle.  I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that.  If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable.  If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself.  I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again.  I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again.  This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.

Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him.  I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit.  If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest.  If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious. 

Should our failures hurt?  I believe so.  But, in our failures we need to realize that God is indeed in control.  He WONT leave us like this.  He will finish the work he started.  So, learning to forgive ourselves becomes a much needed spiritual gift that can only come from God.  If you want the ability to forgive yourself, ask God for it. Holding ourselves to standards of perfection is a form of narcissism dressed up like holiness.


Offline redhotmagma

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2011, 07:29:37 PM »
I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures.  But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle.  I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that.  If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable.  If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself.  I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again.  I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again.  This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.

Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him.  I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit.  If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest.  If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious.

You sure you can't see into my mind?  Wow you just described myself. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline shawn

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2011, 08:11:19 PM »
I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures.  But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle.  I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that.  If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable.  If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself.  I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again.  I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again.  This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.

Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him.  I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit.  If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest.  If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious.

You sure you can't see into my mind?  Wow you just described myself. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It's common to man.  We just don't talk about it enough so people suffer in silence.  The truth will bring light to the darkness...healing to the sick.

Offline thinktank

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2011, 09:19:16 PM »
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.

Hi,

I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.

CHB

But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?

This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.

That's not what I meant at all. Don't twist my words. I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule. I'm a follower, not a leader. That's why I hope I won't be chosen to rule with Him in the millenial kingdom (if that doctrine is true). I would give my crown to someone else. The thought of so many responsibilities and thousands of people to take care of makes me shudder. I prefer to serve and follow rather than lead and what's the point of ruling yourself if it seperates you from God? Adam and Eve weren't very bright if you ask me. What I was saying is, I wish I was perfect so I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again, because everytime I do, I hate myself and I hurt too. Also, I wish I was perfect because if I was, I would be everything He wants me to be, so He would always be pleased with me and we would both be happy. And people living in heaven are perfect and they still need Him. Everyone needs God. Those who pretend that they don't are either lying or spiritually dead aka unsaved...

Michelle, you misunderstood me once again and took it personal.

You asked or pondered the following

Michelle
 And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?

I assume you were serious in this question and wanted to know why we as people would bother with Jesus if we we already perfect. My answer is that Jesus is the one that made us perfect, and so without him, we would decay morally as Adam and Eve found out, when they walked away from him. But it seems in your reply to me, you understand this already, but I clear up that I was not accusing too you, this i.e "I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule." so I was not comparing you to Adam and Eve.


Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2011, 03:29:25 AM »
"If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest. If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious. Should our failures hurt?  I believe so.  But, in our failures we need to realize that God is indeed in control.  He WONT leave us like this.  He will finish the work he started.  So, learning to forgive ourselves becomes a much needed spiritual gift that can only come from God.  If you want the ability to forgive yourself, ask God for it. Holding ourselves to standards of perfection is a form of narcissism dressed up like holiness."

This isn't about me. What part of "I want to be perfect TO Him and FOR Him" did you not understand? Why loving beings full of imperfections and impurities when He is so perfect and hates imperfection above all else? If He wants people to be perfect then why not just do right away? My imperfections and impurities are part of me so He can't possibly REALLY TRULY love me in this life because He hates with a passion what is part of me. And since He is God Almighty, He doesn't need to put us through all that sh*t, He doesn't need to leave those impurities and imperfections to exist in us and put us through a whole century of stupid tests, and failures, and in a states that he hates so much. He could just make us perfect now and REALLY TRULY love us because we would be right away everything He wants us to be. When you can just snap your fingers and make something happen by performing a mega miracle you don't come up with excuses about time, trials, tests and so-called necessaries pain, shame, guilt, self-hatred and unworthiness. If He TRULY REALLY hated sin and imperfection, He would deal with it NOW. He wouldn't leave His children to be something ugly, disgusting and unworthy. Time, trials, tests, pain and self-loathing is totally unnecessary when an Almighty God has the power to make everything perfect and pure. And you have no idea how sick I am of hearing "Let God work" or "God is working". God doesn't need to work. God can snap his fingers and can make anything happen right away. It's only an excuse to put us through unnecessary pain, trials, losing everyone we love and being a victim of evil people who abuse us non-stop until there's nothing left but pain, loneliness and misery. And He never interferes. He just let everyone and everything hurt you and destroy your life without lifting so much as a finger to help you. And if He REALLY TRULY hated sin and imperfection as He pretend that He does, then He wouldn't waste time and He would deal with it now, instead of leaving His "beloved" children to be infected with something that he hates and despise. You said that God allowed you to feel the pain of failure for your benefit, but that is a lie. It is not for our benefit. I hurt and despise myself for not being perfect to Him and for Him, I don't called that being allowed to feel the pain of failure for my benefit. He planned my failures before the beginning of the world and made them part of His plan and He leaves me to feel guilty, ashamed and disgusting for not being perfect to Him and for Him when He planned my failures to begin with. Of all the cruel, sick, evil things God could ever do to His children, that is the worst. It's all His fault. It's like a mother who wants her son to be perfect for she hates imperfection, but she planned his failures from the start so that her son can never truly be worthy and be everything his mother wants him to be. And the son love his mother so much that's it's killing him that he's stuck in a state in which he can never truly please his mother. It's a freaking curse. Is life even worth living? Everything is a joke! I should hate Him. I should really hate Him for that. But He won't have that now, won't He? I'm nothing but a toy in His hands. It's only a game to Him, isn't? Isn't? All my life I've been played with by people who supposedly loved me and cared about me. Why must Jesus toy with me like that? You don't play with the feelings and emotions of those who love you that much...

Well, yeah, I'm angry. It'll pass. Maybe if I hadn't so many problems to deal with, I would better stomach it. Between that, my quickly deteriorating friendship with a Fundy and prophetic dreams, I feel stressed out and exhausted. I think I need to minister to some suicidal youths again. And watch some of Gary's videos. That always make me feel better...     
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 03:49:35 AM by Michelle »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 04:03:51 AM »
Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader. As for myself, I await His decisons and directions, I have nothing to do with the out come. No, I a m not a robot or a puppet, it is His Will that is done, i may continue to keep chosing paths but only until He leads me to the proper one. The He Will Be All in All.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2011, 04:07:30 AM »
Hi Michelle, you've asked for help, are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting?  Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging.  What can we do to help you?  What works best for you?  Thanks, James. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 05:01:27 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2011, 06:03:54 AM »
Hi Michelle, you've asked for help, are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting?  Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging.  What can we do to help you?  What works best for you?  Thanks, James.

Thanks my friend and brother, you must have been reading my mind for I was just about to speak the same. :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2011, 07:14:57 AM »
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader."

He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves. God doesn't want His children to be unhappy, miserable, and over-stressed in the millenial Kingdom and eternal life. And He will never force His children into leading against their will or take a position that they do not want against their will because He loves them and when you love people, you don't enslave them for all eternity to unhappiness, misery and over-stress by forcing things upon them. Positions and leadership are heavenly rewards. Heavenly rewards are not forced upon people. One can trade the reward for another reward or give it away. And He takes our wants and dreams into account and make them part of His plan. I talk from experience. I wanted to be an intercessory prayer warrior, He made me one. I didn't want to get married, He left me to be single. God allow us some freedom. Don't make the mistake to think that He forces absolutely everything on us and doesn't give us the smallest bit of freedom or choice. Also, He prefers humility and humbleness, so He will never force into leadership a person who prefers to serve and follow. Why having me lead when I could be His personal servant and serve Him day in night?  Leadership and positions in the Kingdom are heavenly rewards, freely given, freely received. One can do anything they want with it because it belongs to them. It can be traded or given away. Now, sure He will decide who it will be given to and who will take that leadership position among those who are willing to lead, but rewards and leadership are not forced upon people. And if you think that God just force everything upon people and doesn't give them any freedom or choice, read the testimonies. Also, if He forced positions of leadership upon people, He would risk a major rebellion, just as much as if He had lied and deceived people to conceal the eternal torture of billions of people in hell. That would be tyranny, for leading is a choice...

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html

Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2011, 07:58:34 AM »
"are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting?  Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging.  What can we do to help you?  What works best for you?"

I will just shut up and change the subject entirely. It's not like anyone in the world can understand how much I love Him and how much my imperfections are driving me crazy. If there is a hell, then this is it. Such strong, burning love is so painful that it's unbearable and being stuck in such a state of despicable and disgusting imperfection is torture. As for the feedback I'm getting, some of them are a little helpful. It's not anyone's fault. It's not your fault I'm a mess because everything I've been put through in the last few months. Being under demonic oppression for months (even in my sleep), dealing with the E.T doctrine and still dealing with a residue of anxiety and worry that I'm not good enough for Jesus or that I will lose Him, dealing with erroneous doctrines and beliefs I've been brainwashed with, dealing with the O.T, trying to mend my friendship with a Damnationist friend who just keep insulting me, conflictual relationship with my mother and sister and to top it all, the feeling that I'm always twenty feet behind all of you. I've been studying UR for two weeks and I only understand half of what I read. Not just because I'm dealing with a lot of problem and have a hard time focussing on anything, but because I'm fairly new to both Christian Universalism (It's been two weeks) and a personal relationship with God (It's been only six months). And I have had Fundies come to me and tell me, "If you don't understand everything, then you're not saved, because if you were, you would understand everything." So I live with the constant fear that someone on this board will come to me and tell me, "Oh, you don't understand that? Then you're not saved and born from above". I know that I am saved and born from above, but when you have been dealing with Fundies for months, you constantly fear that someone will come and put you in the "unsaved" category and attack your inexperience with some material or scriptures. I have been brainwashed into taking all scriptures literally and I'm still dealing with anxiety and some confusion due to my recent endoctrination. So I will not be on the same level of Biblical understanding than so many of you...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2011, 08:04:41 AM »
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader." ( I am Micah and this is a quote from me)

"He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves." (This is from Michelle)

Just from what and where do you procure your islolation from your creator?
Isa 29:16 O! Your waywardness! Should as clay, the Potter be accounted? For is what is made saying of its Maker, `He did not make me'? And does the formed say of its Former, `He does not understand'?
Isa 64:8  But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay.

You seem like a "boss" and that what you have gleaned from His Word is what we as His listerns "must" hear or you will leave our presence. Well I say, you speak well of somethings but your personal offering is blunt and hurting. But this is me and I am not one well accepted for my speak. I, just me, do not see where you are coming from and why you fear some of the responses of the brethern that have been offered and which have been good.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2011, 08:09:41 AM »
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted.  They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not.  We have believers from all walks of life.  I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight.  I know they have helped me.  I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.

I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen.  When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments.  Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said.  If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.

You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh.  I know I personally care about your spiritual well being.  I would say many others do here as well.  So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication. 

Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2011, 09:02:52 AM »
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader." ( I am Micah and this is a quote from me)

"He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves." (This is from Michelle)

Just from what and where do you procure your islolation from your creator?
Isa 29:16 O! Your waywardness! Should as clay, the Potter be accounted? For is what is made saying of its Maker, `He did not make me'? And does the formed say of its Former, `He does not understand'?
Isa 64:8  But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay.

You seem like a "boss" and that what you have gleaned from His Word is what we as His listerns "must" hear or you will leave our presence. Well I say, you speak well of somethings but your personal offering is blunt and hurting. But this is me and I am not one well accepted for my speak. I, just me, do not see where you are coming from and why you fear some of the responses of the brethern that have been offered and which have been good.

I never said that I would leave your presence and I never said I was a boss. I simply do not agree with what you said about Him forcing everything on us and not giving us any freedom is all. God simply do not damage His children by forcing them into thing that would seriously damage them. I listened to what you had to say, but I know from personal experience that He takes our wants and dreams into account and make them part of His plan. Or He knew before the beginning of the world what our wants and dreams would be and made at least some of them part of His plan. The Fundies have a saying that goes like this: "God doesn't want you happy, He wants you holy." This is absolutely not true. I can assure you that some of our wants and dreams are part of His perfect plan, because contrary to popular belief, He wants us to have some level of happiness in this life and He knows that people need to be motivated sometimes. He give us some freedom of choice, because as I have said in a my previous post, I have personally experienced it. I was given intercessory prayers to pray and I was not forced into marriage. God doesn't force me into things that would make me unhappy and miserable or damage me more than I already am. He knows my limits. And sometimes, He bless me with with something I asked for. He didn't force me into marriage and I know He won't force me into leadership, authority and power because He knows that it would make me miserable, unhappy and over-stressed for all the ages of my eternal life of immortality. It would damage me just as much as forcing me into marriage after so many abuses and He knows it because we have had a "conversation" about that. He knows my limits and I know that He loves me way too much to force that kind of thing upon me because He has proved it to be. And as I said in my previous post, leadership and positions in the kingdom are heavenly rewards and rewards are not forced upon people and nowhere does it say in the Bible that people will be forced to accept a reward that they do not want or that they will be forced to rule or reign if they want to serve and follow. The only passage pertaining to to rule is the passage in which one of the apostles say: "We shall rule/reign with Him." It doesn't say anything about authority and power forced upon people. It's a reward, a privilege. Look, I listened to what you had to say, but I know from personal experience that He won't force it on those who just can't cope with it, just like He didn't force me into marriage. He clearly showed to me that He knows my limits and that He will never force anything upon me that would seriously damage me or destroy my life. 

"He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay."

Nice. Promises of tyranny and evil. Just like the Fundies. When people don't threaten you with eternal torture, they say that your heavenly father will seriously damage you and destroy your life by forcing things upon you like an eternal life of authority, power and thousands of everlasting, neverending responsibilities or marriage or seclusion. Or that He will force everything upon you and won't give you the smallest bit of freedom of choice. Well, I know from experience that He is love and will never do something that tyrannic and evil to me. He has shown me on numerous occasion that He loves me way too much to force that kind of thing upon me. If you want to believe that you are a robot or a puppet, be my guest, but me, I have been told by Him that He will never force me into marrying or leading. He just love the fact that I'm a servant and a follower rather than the leading type. And you should study the subject of heavenly REWARDS. Rewards are never forced upon anyone. And I don't like your attitude. I am blunt and hurting? Just because I have disagree with you, you have attacked me. I am entitled to my opinion and in this case, it's not my opinion, it's personal experience...   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 09:07:59 AM by Michelle »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2011, 09:22:45 AM »
Well, I thank you.  What has been shown to me is your speach is an unwelcome ness to listen, for you have the ability to know all. Perhaps we need to come to you for all our wonders and questions. Your arguments and debates hold no recess, what we know is in error and you are the  center of knowledge. I for one find your beggarly pettions unworthy for debate. But go on with your premise, I have dusted my sandles of your displeasure of the Gospel.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 09:43:41 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2011, 09:24:00 AM »
Michelle,

Your posts are laced with mistrust and fear.  God doesn't torture anyone nor will he place something upon you that you can't handle.  If God calls someone to a place of leadership he will equip them with the ability to lead.  There is no tyranny, torture or abuse as you have suffered from the hands of men.  Micah is right on the money, if God calls you to do something you are clay and can mold you to have the capabilities and desires to do it.  But, God doesn't bless our plans and allow us to run the show.  That's not how this faith thing works.  Do you trust God?  If so, then why would you think that God would have anything but the best for you?  If not, then you need to ask yourself why.

I truly believe you lack trust for God because you are confused and full of fear.  I think past experiences with man has imprisoned you in a world of anxiety.  You can't trust man, you can't trust God and you are left with fear, anger, defensiveness and crippling anxiety.  Do you believe that's what God wants for you?

It's starts with a childlike faith.  You know that you know your Daddy in heaven loves you dearly.  When you truly get that, you will see things fall into place for you.

Offline Lonely Summer

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2011, 09:32:22 AM »
Michelle, there is painful reality in your words. I am not gonna presume to speak for everyone here, but it hasn't been my experience so far that my questions are met with judgement on this forum. In fact, I have finally asked about some things that have puzzled me for years - things I was afraid to ask about in the fundamentalist church for fear of being called "unsaved". I'm new here, too, and new to the universalist approach to faith. Wish I could be of more help to you, I have struggled with many of the same issues you are dealing with. You are not alone. I've found the writings of Frank Schaeffer to be of some help to me. "Patience With God" is a good read.

Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2011, 09:40:30 AM »
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted.  They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not.  We have believers from all walks of life.  I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight.  I know they have helped me.  I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.

I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen.  When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments.  Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said.  If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.

You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh.  I know I personally care about your spiritual well being.  I would say many others do here as well.  So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.

Understood. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. Just want to say that I talk from personal experience. If I haven't personally experienced something, I don't talk about it. That's why I sometimes get zealous in defending my point. Because my personal experience is not an opinion, a point of view or even a belief, it's personal experience and testimony. I would be insulting the Lord if I didn't stick to the facts and defend my testimony...

2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Offline Michelle

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 11:43:22 AM »
"Micah is right on the money, if God calls you to do something you are clay and can mold you to have the capabilities and desires to do it.  But, God doesn't bless our plans and allow us to run the show.  That's not how this faith thing works.  Do you trust God?  If so, then why would you think that God would have anything but the best for you?  If not, then you need to ask yourself why."

I know the truth of my testimony, what He personally told me and the promise He made to me not to force me into anything like marriage or leading against my will because He loves me way to much to do that to me. It's my testimony and personal experience and I will not change it. It's as simple as that. I never said that God bless my plans and allow me to run the show. I said that He doesn't force me into marriage and promised me not to force me into leadership. Leadership and positions in the Kingdom are heavenly REWARDS that won't be forced upon people. People will be free to refuse any of the rewards or trade them. Some people study the Greek and the Hebrew, but they should look up the definition of some english words in the dictionnary. Like the Damnationists who say that punishment is endless. They should look up the definition of punishment in the dictionnary. A punishment is to correct, improve, better an individual. It must serve a purpose. If it's endless and doesn't serve a purpose, it's not punishment, it's torture and abuse. And some people on this board need to look up the definition of reward in the dictionnary. A reward can be accepted or refused, a reward is not an obligation or a burden. I also said that He knew our wants and dreams before the beginning of the world and made some of them part of His plan because He loves us, wants us to be happy in this life and knows that we sometimes need to be motivated. Everything I tell you is testimony and personal experience. Well, I know I'm not lying. He didn't force me into marriage and He gave me intercessory prayer for people. There are things that He just doesn't force on people and He sometimes bless us with things we ask. God is love and He told me that He would never force marriage or leadership upon me. I take Him at His word, no matter what people say. He doesn't force me into marriage because He know that it would seriously damage me and destroy my life because I have been abused too many times. He knows that I just can't take a position of authority, power and numerous responsibilities, that it would end up being bitter, depressed and ressentful. He knows my limits. He would rather have me love Him naturally than force me to love Him. And He knows that I could never love Him again if He forced me in either of those things. You say that there will be no tyranny, or abuse, but you seemed convince that he will completely and totally violate the entire will of all human beings on the planet. Spiritual rape is not love. God decide most things but He gives some freedom of choice. Otherwise, people would be nothing more than puppets and robots, slaves, spiritual raped people wiith no will at all. They wouldn't even have the possibility to think by themselves. They would be zombies. If such a thing was true and God wanted to impose His total will on everyone and everyone was zombies devoid of any will and any choice, then in that case, it would've been best for the race to have never existed. Some people on this board seem convince that this is how God, how Love is. But that's not what I have experienced and that's not the message I've received from Him. And how can you or anyone else be so sure that ruling and reigning with Him is not just some kind of symbology and metaphore? What proof do we have that those few passages are to be taken literally? And many things just doesn't work in that scenario. First, How would you feel if your mother, father or sister crawled on their hands and knees before you and called your "Majesty" and bowed before you all day long and you would be running their entire lives when family members, people of the same blood should be equals? Even friends should be equals. Not anyone here has any guarantee that all their familiy members, all their blood relatives and friends will be ruling and reigning with them. Secondly, the few passages about ruling and reigning say something like, we shall reign with Him. It doesn't say who will rule. If it's the whole human race like some people think, then it makes ruling and reigning completely pointless and ridiculous, for there is no one to serve and follow, therefore there is no one to rule and reign upon. That would also mean that no work will be imperfect and burned and that everyone will get the same reward. I'm not talking about salvation and I'm certainly not a self-righteous Pharisees, but the scriptures clearly say that all will be saved, but some works will be burn and not all will have the same reward(s). Thirdly, Christ is the King. A King doesn't rule and reign over kiings and queens. There can be only one King, one ruler in a Kingdom. Fourth, humans with authority and power, especially adults, can never be trusted. They always want more and mistreat the people. And when you go to people of authority and tell them that you are victim of violence, abuse and injustice, they laugh at you or call you a liar. Fifth, only Jesus should rule and reign. He alone has the perfection and the light to rule us all. And with all the kings and queens around to serve day and night, or people to rule over day and night, no one will ever have time to see Him or spend anytime with Him. And with so many sovereigns it will make his rule rather tasteless and insipid, like salt that has lost its saltiness. And what do you do with Revelation 4:9-11? They throw the crowns at His feet, you alone are worthy of power, honor and glory...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 12:19:45 PM by Michelle »

Offline Molly

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 12:21:23 PM »
Quote from: Michelle
Or He knew before the beginning of the world what our wants and dreams would be and made at least some of them part of His plan. The Fundies have a saying that goes like this: "God doesn't want you happy, He wants you holy." This is absolutely not true. I can assure you that some of our wants and dreams are part of His perfect plan, because contrary to popular belief, He wants us to have some level of happiness in this life and He knows that people need to be motivated sometimes.
Yes.


1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

 2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

 3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

 4He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

 5His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

 6For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

 7For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.

--Psa 21


Offline Miriam

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2011, 01:06:10 PM »
to top it all, the feeling that I'm always twenty feet behind all of you. I've been studying UR for two weeks and I only understand half of what I read. Not just because I'm dealing with a lot of problem and have a hard time focussing on anything, but because I'm fairly new to both Christian Universalism (It's been two weeks) and a personal relationship with God (It's been only six months).
I'm new too and although I've been a Christian for over 30 years I'm questioning a lot of things I've taken for granted up to now, so I too feel at a disadvantage in terms of what I know compared to others here. From what I've seen on this forum people are keen to help, and to share the good news of UR in a way that brings peace and joy and reassurance to all.

You have a lot to cope with at the moment and are being very hard on yourself. It may not be a helpful analogy to you, but I often compare God's love for us with that of a parent for a child. I have two wonderful kids. They are not perfect but they are mine and I love them unconditionally, and more than I imagined it was ever possible to love anyone. I don't want them to be continually beating themselves up about the fact that they're not perfect. God doesn't love us more or less depending on how good or bad we are. He loves us because he loves us.  :HeartThrob: 

Offline Molly

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Offline jabcat

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2011, 02:48:37 PM »
Yes, I read this a month or two ago and really liked it.  Actually one of my favorites.  The angels ministering is very awesome to me.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2011, 03:38:05 PM »
Yes, I read this a month or two ago and really liked it.  Actually one of my favorites.  The angels ministering is very awesome to me.   :thumbsup:
yes, it's interesting his near death experience kind of went along the lines of what we have been talking about recently--those cast into the outer darkness are the ones in the lake of fire.  The root for the word 'lake' means 'safe harbor.'
As any sailor knows, that is the place you go to in a storm for shelter from the wind.

"lake" [of fire]
G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.

G3040
λιμήν
limēn
lee-mane'
Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.


"haven"

a shelter serving as a place of safety or sanctuary

Offline shawn

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Re: What exactly happened last night???
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted.  They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not.  We have believers from all walks of life.  I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight.  I know they have helped me.  I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.

I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen.  When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments.  Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said.  If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.

You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with.  I hope this doesn't sound harsh.  I know I personally care about your spiritual well being.  I would say many others do here as well.  So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.

Understood. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. Just want to say that I talk from personal experience. If I haven't personally experienced something, I don't talk about it. That's why I sometimes get zealous in defending my point. Because my personal experience is not an opinion, a point of view or even a belief, it's personal experience and testimony. I would be insulting the Lord if I didn't stick to the facts and defend my testimony...

2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

No one is saying you can't have your own mind, but you must allow others to have theirs.  You can't just insult people because they don't agree with you, no matter how passionately we feel.  We can debate doctrine til we are blue in the face but that isn't helpful.  You have been indoctrinated enough.  You need a functional faith.  So, personally I won't debate doctrine with you as I see it not being fruitful.  What could be fruitful with you is getting down to the mistrust towards God behind your posts.  I think another thing that might be fruitful is finding out why you lack peace and are filled with anxiety.

For me, it's about starting there and that means going back to the basics.  Debating theology 501 with you when you are stumbling on the basics (ie God truly loves Michelle and wants the best for her)...is going to bring nothing but frustration from you and the community.

With the risk of sounding like I am trying to dictate others behavior, I hope no member here continues to debate doctrine with you.  At least not right now.  As much as you believe you know, it's not working for you.  If it was, peace, love and grace would be flowing from your posts.  That is not what I see.

Do you want a debate or do you want peace?  If you want some peace and rest for your weary soul, then you came to the right place.  If you came to buck heads with people over doctrine there are plenty of communities that embrace that.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 04:47:16 PM by shawn »