Author Topic: Matthew 16:17  (Read 2726 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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Matthew 16:17
« on: May 17, 2010, 07:01:36 AM »



Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you,
but My Father Who is in the heavens.

He makes us: The dove who hears!

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 02:02:06 AM »
This is one of my very best verses. because it is how jc explained that the New Church is formed, i.e. through PERSONAL Revealation from above " the Father"

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 06:04:10 PM »
THIS is why I try to be careful not to use Scripture as proof of what I believe . . . there is SOOOO much going on with this passage, but the truth is, God writes his word upon our hearts THROUGH PERSONAL, INWARD REVELATION by way of our relationship with Christ.  But you have every reason to embrace this passage, I embrace it with you, it's a platform I often stand on when getting too deeply in debates with the minds of others who try to use Scriptures to enforce your belief system. 

This passage for me affirms exactly what you just stated.  This is the "how" Christ was going to raise his temple that had been torn down by men back up.  He was going to over-ride the limited minds of men and reveal his nature direction to our spirit.  Flesh and blood can not teach spiritual truth because it can't comprehend it.  Which again, is why we're called to walk in the spirit . . ."that" is where the revealing nature of God resides.  "Not" in the minds of men, especially when it comes to mans mind interpreting God-inspired Scriptures.

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 07:44:09 PM »
 :thumbsup:   Sweet

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 11:37:07 PM »
What about Peter being the rock?

If Christ meant himself, it seems a strange way of speaking, perhaps the Hebrew or Greek gives a better understanding.

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 12:05:03 AM »
The Rock fable  ( of Peter ) was founded my the corrupt church system, and is a total redirect of attention away from the subject of the text. In any language

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 12:27:53 AM »
No, no, the rock is the actual revelational process.  It's God speaking directly to the hearts of men "that's" the rock, it's the breath of God that Jesus is building his church on.  For me, this is why in Revelation John sees a sword of fire, sword being the Word of God, fire being purification that comes out of the mouth of Jesus . . .it's his message that he's using as the bonding agent that holds us together, forming his church.  But the rock, the cornerstone, the foundation piece is the act of God revealing the nature of Jesus directly to the hearts of men, over-riding flesh and blood's influence and manipulations.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 12:48:46 AM »
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,

"Peter"

G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

and upon this rock

"rock"

G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.


 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:53:12 AM by Molly »

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »
the subject is who and how he knew, REVEALED FROM GOD not the old way through a priest/pastor/ messenger/ angel which is all the same thing...

Not the issue of Peter or Rock , that is the redirect to get people to forget that God Deals with individuals on a one on one bases

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 01:04:53 AM »
Oh, that reminds me, in the verses leading up to the story of the rich man and Lazarus, there is a verse in there that is just stunning . . .it states that

Matt. 11
 12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luke 16 on the same thing . . .
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


John the Baptist was the forerunner . . .Peter's experience was the same . . .it was the forerunner of how God would be communicating with the church.  Jesus was the transition from following the law and prophets to hearing directly from God ourselves.   I believe that's why Peter's name was changed.  God was changing the identity, the face of his church.

If you read "on" that incident with Peter, it changed the direction of Jesus' ministry.  It literally says, immediately following that experience "from that time forward . . .Jesus taught about his death, burial and resurrection . . ."  that was a turning point on many levels.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 01:07:06 AM »
the subject is who and how he knew, REVEALED FROM GOD not the old way through a priest/pastor/ messenger/ angel which is all the same thing...

Not the issue of Peter or Rock , that is the redirect to get people to forget that God Deals with individuals on a one on one bases
No one is contradicting that first statement.  You are right about that.

But, he goes on to make the play on the word 'rock' for a reason.  We are building our house on a rock.  And each of us are lively stones.  That is the church, the ekklesia, the body of Christ.  That is the stone cut without hands.  The rock is Christ.


Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


"rock"

G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074 a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.




Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 01:15:08 AM »
Quote from: Nathan
Peter's experience was the same . . .it was the forerunner of how God would be communicating with the church.  Jesus was the transition from following the law and prophets to hearing directly from God ourselves.   I believe that's why Peter's name was changed.  God was changing the identity, the face of his church.

I was reading that passage one day and felt a punch in my chest--Thou art Peter--

It was speaking to me.  It is speaking to each one of us.


Thou art Peter...


Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 03:01:06 AM »
the subject is who and how he knew, REVEALED FROM GOD not the old way through a priest/pastor/ messenger/ angel which is all the same thing...

Not the issue of Peter or Rock , that is the redirect to get people to forget that God Deals with individuals on a one on one bases
No one is contradicting that first statement.  You are right about that.

But, he goes on to make the play on the word 'rock' for a reason.  We are building our house on a rock.  And each of us are lively stones.  That is the church, the ekklesia, the body of Christ.  That is the stone cut without hands.  The rock is Christ.


Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.


"rock"

G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074 a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

Keep it in the context Molly, you're right, but keep it in context of what he's doing and what's going on here . . . he jumped all over this immediately after it happened and explained to Peter what just transpired . . .he adamantly made it clear that "flesh and blood can't teach you this . .. but only the Father can reveal it . . ."  he isn't just the rock, Peter is exactly as you say, he is representation of us . ..we are the living stones . . .how so?  Through the Father revealing the nature of Jesus to us personally and in that intimacy, we become embedded in the CORNERSTONE . . .

Good stuff, man!!!

Offline thinktank

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 04:10:26 AM »
Good stuff here, I have seen the battle that takes place betwen catholic and protestant viewpoints upon this and it is challenging to see which one is correct, but from the info here it seems that both of them have a valid point in their interpretation, that Christ is the rock, but we also and Peter himself are lively stones building on top of Christ.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 09:13:54 AM »
 :cloud9: My take on it.......the point was, He asked Peter who HE said He was. He had already named off a list of MEN given as explanations of His "true" identity by other men, and they were not correct. At that moment, the FATHER revealed to Peter by His Spirit that the One that spoke to him was the Son of the living God, who IS (not will be or was) in heaven, and therefore is Spirit. Jesus said essentially the same thing later to someone else, when He said basically I'm standing right here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

This is why we're to know no man after the flesh, because when we get to a point of hearing His voice ALL THE TIME, (other) tongues will cease (when that which is perfect shall come = perfected LOVE), and I have heard Him speak thru people that didn't even know Him, yet I heard HIS voice. It was astonishing..... :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 03:11:51 PM »
 :icon_flower:
                                                                                               REVELATION FIRST—THEN INTERPRETATION

Those who have seen the fullness of the plan of Redemption are often asked, "what if you are wrong ? You will then find yourself in the very "Hell" which you preach against and furthermore find yourself an accomplice to having led many to Hell. But if what you say is correct, then my belief in Hell will still get me to heaven.  I can't lose with my beliefs but you can sure lose with your beliefs."
   First of all, anyone with just a slightly open mind, can see there are quite a few Scriptures to support eternal punishment, annihilation, or the Salvation to ALL  mankind through Jesus Christ.  Throughout the centuries there have been sincere Christians in all these groups.  Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many  ( imo quam plurimi, which can be translated Majority ) who through NOT  denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments," ( Enchiria, ad Laurent. C. 29) St. Basil the Great ( C. 329 – 379 ) in his De Asceticis wrote: " The mass of men ( Christians ) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished."
   Now if all three positions seem to have Scriptural grounds, this presents a problem for some. The solution to the problem is found in Matthew 16: 17. ( Go read NOW Please-the whole subject is really about God reveals and has nothing to do with Peter being the foundation, the foundation IS the subject=Revelation )  You see, apart from the spirit of " Revelation", which comes from above and not from ourselves, the Bible can really be made to say anything we want it to say. Look at the thousands of denominations each based upon differences of interpretation of basically the same Bible.  Most Christians Cults are even more intense in Bible study than average church-goers and they often come up with some very bizarre teachings. Most people are usually sincere in their beliefs.  They really believe they have the truth. But until we have what Peter received when Jesus asked him who He ( Matt 16:17 )…unto then, we only have knowledge which gets filtered through our culturally conditioned mind.  The Scriptures, apart from the Spirit of Revelation often produces horrible systems of belief.  Few of us are honest enough with ourselves to cry out to God to be completely (set Free) from the traditions of men, from cultural, parental, political mind-sets which effect  how we read the Scriptures.


Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »
Quote
the foundation IS the subject=Revelation

YES.

and the rock?


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


No one comes to the Father except through me.

--John 14:6

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 03:35:50 PM »
Yes Molly, I do understand why you are so adament on making me and  others see your angel , Altho in my " Belief system" From the day that the New Order Began, When God Raised His Son From the Dead, give or take, Just like being dragged kicking and screaming into death by Adam, God's Son dragged kicking and screaming ALL Things into Life Eternal Through Him (JC ) , and the next question is do you think that one or 20  generations after Adam sinned, did they know they were in the death realm and in so thinking do you think that you and I and those around JC at that time Knew they were in the Life Realm???
At the resurrection, give or take, All Things Were made new, the Jewish empire got there promises forfilled altho not able to preciece it .

I will stop for now, but I do agree with you Molly

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 04:29:21 PM »
ok I think I see what you're saying.  You're saying that personal relationship is here, now, available to us now, that's why you said this:

Quote
Few of us are honest enough with ourselves to cry out to God to be completely (set Free) from the traditions of men, from cultural, parental, political mind-sets which effect  how we read the Scriptures.

right?

So you are saying our expectations now should be to have achieved what Paul describes in 1 Cor 13:12?

..but then face to face

..but then shall I know even as also I am known.

--1 Cor 13:12


If that's what you're saying, I agree that's possible now.  I'm just not there yet.

Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 05:07:23 PM »
ok

Offline lomarah

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 09:47:13 PM »
:cloud9: My take on it.......the point was, He asked Peter who HE said He was. He had already named off a list of MEN given as explanations of His "true" identity by other men, and they were not correct. At that moment, the FATHER revealed to Peter by His Spirit that the One that spoke to him was the Son of the living God, who IS (not will be or was) in heaven, and therefore is Spirit. Jesus said essentially the same thing later to someone else, when He said basically I'm standing right here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

This is why we're to know no man after the flesh, because when we get to a point of hearing His voice ALL THE TIME, (other) tongues will cease (when that which is perfect shall come = perfected LOVE), and I have heard Him speak thru people that didn't even know Him, yet I heard HIS voice. It was astonishing..... :2c:

That is so interesting, I was just watching a video the other day that was saying the exact same thing. (Funny how that happens, eh?) Card you have said before that hell is separation from God. Do you mean that we are actually separated from Him or that we only think we are (in our minds)? If we are to know no man after the flesh and He speaks through everyone and in Him we live and move and have our being... 
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 11:40:37 PM »
 :cloud9: Our minds are what creates the separation. That's why it's emnity towards God, ie. it's His enemy. Along that vein, since our enemies (and God's) are not flesh and blood, but principalities and powers of the air (spirit), then we can see where Armmageddon takes place (between our ears). My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 16:17
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 12:30:54 AM »



Now, answering, Jesus said to him, "Happy are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you,
but My Father Who is in the heavens.

He makes us: The dove who hears!

Amen.

God just keeps bringing this verse to my eyes.