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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by rosered on December 08, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
appreciate your research and findings Rose.
I appreciate  , your studies Joe along  with WW's and Ronens  etc..  Well  everyone's  unique  ability to share   what the Good Lord has given them .

I do not say it often enough , but have been very blessed by this place , The Tentmakers  site  and forum
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by gregoryfl on December 08, 2014, 11:42:44 AM »
Ronen, curious as to how you see the 7 Noahide laws in relationship to this. Seems to me these principles guide even through the NT whenever any requirements regaarding Christian conduct are mentioned they never seem to go beyond these 7.
Do you mean in relation to finding deeper meanings in scripture beyond the context? It is said that 6 of the 7 laws are gleaned from Ber 2:16,17, which has God saying:

And the Lord God commanded the man saying 'From all the trees of the garden you may freely eat

And the Talmud explains how the 6 laws come from here as follows:

The word "commanded" (VaYetzav) is a reference to laws of justice for it says in Gen. 18:19, "For I have known him so he will COMMAND (Yitzaveh) his children after him to keep the way of the Lord and righteousness and justice."

"And the Lord" (HaShem) implies the prohibition of blasphemy. As it says in Lev. 24:16, "He who blasphemes the name of THE LORD (Hashem) shall die."

"God" (Elokim) is a reference to idolatry for it says in Ex. 20:3 "You shall have no other Elokim before me".

"The Man" (Ha Adam) is the prohibition of murder. God explicitly commands Noah (Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."

"Saying" (Laymor) refers to sexual misconduct or adultery, as the prophet Jeremiah (3:1) says, "Saying (laymor), if a man divorces his wife..."

"From all the trees of the Garden" is an implicit prohibition of theft. It shows that permission is needed to take something that is not explicitly yours.

Likewise, "you may eat" implies that there are things which may not be eaten (the limbs of a live animal). This last law was given to Noah directly.

If this is what you are asking, I would also see these as examples of what we are discussing.
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Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by WhiteWings on December 08, 2014, 09:55:54 AM »
Leviticus, chapter 1
Right away, the Helliolater will probably step forward and declare, "There you are!  Burned sacrifices that's symbolic of Hell!"  Well, maybe not, but let's take a look at what's going on here.  My father's father used to say, "It doesn't mean there's goslings just because there's a gander sitting on the gatepost!"  As students of Scripture, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, to look under the surface for deeper meanings, to understand what the text is really saying.  Our task may seem daunting due to the subject being "types and shadows," but some thoughtful study should clear things up.
Except for the fire, the symbology just does not fit with the conventional picture of Hell.  Sacrifices are burned up in the tabernacle service, not burned on and on.  More importantly, the person bringing the sacrifice transfers his sin or guilt to the animal being sacrificed, just as the sin and/or guilt of the whole world was transferred to the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the sacrificial animals were pure and spotless. They were also of the "holy type" sheep, goats, bullocks. If it was a symbol of hell would expect sacrifice of, say, disfigured swine.
It doesn't make sense to link pure animals to hell.

Only part of the animal was sacrificed to God. If it's a picture of hell why only a  part is sacrificed? Where are the other parts? The parts that were actually burned varied greatly on the type of sacrifice. (peace, sin, communication). Symbolic for different types of hell. Think not....

This page clearly shows all the different type of sacrifices and parts being offered.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/levitical%20sacrifices%20and%20offerings%20of%20the%20old%20covenant.htm











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Lounge / Re: The Trees of Eden
« Last post by TheVisitor on December 08, 2014, 09:25:36 AM »
I apologize for my over sized print in my post, I understand how that comes across as shouting my mistake. :HeartThrob:
That's OK. I regret I did not explain what I was trying to say clearly to avoid causing any confusion.

Quote
Depending on who the second Eve(metaphorically) is, I guess- since it is written that when he is released he will gather the nations once again to surround the saints, Gog and Magog, so somebody gets deceived.
I guess I am implying it would be the resurrected saints.

After looking back over my posts I feel a need to apologize. If some events were recorded only in metaphors, it was probably done that way for a reason. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here. Thanks for all your input.
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Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by eaglesway on December 08, 2014, 06:26:17 AM »
Awesome.
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Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by Lazarus Short on December 08, 2014, 06:03:30 AM »
Leviticus, chapter 1
Right away, the Helliolater will probably step forward and declare, "There you are!  Burned sacrifices that's symbolic of Hell!"  Well, maybe not, but let's take a look at what's going on here.  My father's father used to say, "It doesn't mean there's goslings just because there's a gander sitting on the gatepost!"  As students of Scripture, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, to look under the surface for deeper meanings, to understand what the text is really saying.  Our task may seem daunting due to the subject being "types and shadows," but some thoughtful study should clear things up.
Except for the fire, the symbology just does not fit with the conventional picture of Hell.  Sacrifices are burned up in the tabernacle service, not burned on and on.  More importantly, the person bringing the sacrifice transfers his sin or guilt to the animal being sacrificed, just as the sin and/or guilt of the whole world was transferred to the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.  The rituals of sacrifice in the books of Moses are symbolic of THAT, not of Hell.  Hell symbolism would surely involve human sacrifice in fire, and in fact, it did happen in Christianity, but only after Hell theology had become entrenched.  I speak of course, of burning at the stake, and the auto-da-fe'.  My understanding of all of that is, "Well, they're going to Hell, so let's give them a good start."  BTW, Hell is not mentioned in the texts having to do with the sacrificial services.  Chapter one ends with these words:  "a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto to the Lord."  Do you not see that this cannot have anything to do with Hell, as most think of Hell?  If you put the two ideas together, a God who sends people to Hell, and a God of love, a huge dissonance must begin in the human mind.  It need not be so.

Chapters 2 9
Leviticus 6:13 states, "The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."  Leviticus 9:24 shows us a literal consuming fire of God.  Remember that this fire is not a symbol of eternal punishment, but stands for the nature of God as a cleansing fire, burning up peace, sin, and trespass offerings in order to atone for the sinful and guilty, and restore them to God's favor.  Again, this is a picture of a God of Love, not Punishment.

Chapters 10 - 16
Nadab and Abihu offer strange fire before God (by accident or by design, we aren't told), and are killed/consumed by the same fire we saw in chapter 9.  The account is silent on their fate beyond death, relating only that their dead bodies were carried outside the camp without ceremony.

Chapters 17 - 19
God says of anyone who eats blood, "I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."  Sending that person also to Hell is not mentioned.

Chapters 20 - 25
Penalties for various immoral acts are prescribed, but even for the one act which merited burning (whether the offenders were to be burned alive or burned after being killed is not spelled out), any future punishment in Hell is not threatened.

Chapters 26 27
Here, blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience are spelled out in some detail.  God states more than once that He will punish seven times more if the disobedient do not repent.  However, as severe as God's judgments are, they do not include a future punishment in eternal fire.

There is no mention of Hell, then, in the Book of Leviticus.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by joeteekay on December 08, 2014, 04:01:37 AM »
appreciate your research and findings Rose.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by rosered on December 08, 2014, 01:28:02 AM »

    a hint   4 faces of the Cherub[remez] :winkgrin:

Certainly Rose :). Another great example of what I am talking about. I believe the vision Ezekiel saw is indeed the spiritual reality in the heavenlies, described in a way that people can understand and visualize, and yet also, there is more to the vision than simply telling us about Cherubs with 4 faces, but to be connected to the covenant made with all living creatures, represented by man, bird, domesticated animal, and wild animal:

`And I, lo, I am establishing My covenant with you, and with your seed after you, and with every living creature which is with you, among fowl, among cattle, and among every beast of the earth with you, from all who are going out of the ark--to every beast of the earth.
(Gen 9:9-10)


and then also with the vision John saw in Revelation:
And the first Animal resembled a lion; and the second Animal resembled a calf; and the third Animal had a face like a man; and the fourth Animal resembled an eagle when flying.
(Rev 4:7)
And when he took the book, the four Animals and the twenty and four Elders fell down before the Lamb, each of them having a harp, and cups of gold full of odors, which are the supplications of the saints. And they sung a new anthem, saying: Competent are you, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because you was slain, and have redeemed us to Alaha by your blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(Rev 5:8-9)


Although not explicitly stated, many (myself included) also see this pictured and taught in how the 4 gospels were written.

Ronen

 So  very  Amazing !!     Thanks Ronen   ...  I found an amazing article   descriptive . about the 4 gospels and  the 4 faces representative  of Christ  , the cherubim  in   Matthew , Mark , Luke and John
  looking   into them   things , about  a year ago

 http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/4_gospels/introduction.htm   
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by eaglesway on December 08, 2014, 12:10:47 AM »
Ronen, curious as to how you see the 7 Noahide laws in relationship to this. Seems to me these principles guide even through the NT whenever any requirements regaarding Christian conduct are mentioned they never seem to go beyond these 7.
100
Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Context, context, context
« Last post by gregoryfl on December 07, 2014, 11:30:41 PM »

    a hint   4 faces of the Cherub[remez] :winkgrin:

Certainly Rose :). Another great example of what I am talking about. I believe the vision Ezekiel saw is indeed the spiritual reality in the heavenlies, described in a way that people can understand and visualize, and yet also, there is more to the vision than simply telling us about Cherubs with 4 faces, but to be connected to the covenant made with all living creatures, represented by man, bird, domesticated animal, and wild animal:

`And I, lo, I am establishing My covenant with you, and with your seed after you, and with every living creature which is with you, among fowl, among cattle, and among every beast of the earth with you, from all who are going out of the ark--to every beast of the earth.
(Gen 9:9-10)


and then also with the vision John saw in Revelation:
And the first Animal resembled a lion; and the second Animal resembled a calf; and the third Animal had a face like a man; and the fourth Animal resembled an eagle when flying.
(Rev 4:7)
And when he took the book, the four Animals and the twenty and four Elders fell down before the Lamb, each of them having a harp, and cups of gold full of odors, which are the supplications of the saints. And they sung a new anthem, saying: Competent are you, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because you was slain, and have redeemed us to Alaha by your blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(Rev 5:8-9)


Although not explicitly stated, many (myself included) also see this pictured and taught in how the 4 gospels were written.

Ronen
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