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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: I am not UR
« Last post by JBerton on October 27, 2014, 07:30:18 PM »
I think this is, to a certain extent, quibbling. Using the term UR does not make someone 'denominational". It is an identifying acronym for a scriptural truth. Whether or not a person decides to use that acronym does not make them more or less  free from the roots of sectarianism, which is, to put simply- divisiveness. One person uses the acronym as a communication point for the truth that Micah has stated about the salvation of all. Another person thinks it is too much "the label" to be effective in communicating the truth. I say so what, let each person be free from the judgments of others and go about their business- the Father's business :o)

Quibbling.  :doh:
I was just thinking the same thing. :Chinscratch:
Now there's an accurate label. :laugh:

Thanks EW. :thumbsup:
Christian Life / Re: Path of Truth
« Last post by Tom on October 27, 2014, 07:10:14 PM »
I agree with Seth about Paul's epistle to the Galatians and the distorted evangel. That's the problem with the church. I think it's sad when anybody preaches an exclusivist doctrine because it seems scripture is inclusive to the point of actually including all those in the universe. Scripture says believers were chosen before the disruption of the world according to God's will, not because of anything we've done, and it is only our work, or evangelizing, that will be burned up at the dais of Christ if it isn't based on the foundation of Jesus Christ. So we shouldn't be pushing a distorted evangel of grace plus works, but Christ is ultimately the judge of that. Believers are saved in grace through faith for eonian life, but those who die as unbelievers are saved by the same grace of God at the consummation of the eons. So I don't think it's a question of salvation. I don't know what specific reason the folks in question have for judging each specific person they've judged to be a false teacher, but I'm pretty familiar with Martin Zender's teaching because I used to do a little proofreading for him. His political rants bore me, but I think he's right on about scripture. So I don't know what problem the folks on the website have with him, but, if it's about universal reconciliation, I'd say they're guilty of what they're accusing other folks. That's just my humble opinion though.
Welcome Central - **FIRST POST MUST BE MADE HERE / Re: Hi There :-)
« Last post by Tom on October 27, 2014, 04:57:50 PM »
Ronny, that continuing quote was getting kind of crazy. So I discontinued it, but this is my reply to your message. My brother had his tonsils and adenoids removed when he was kid, and I had my tonsils taken out but not for hearing trouble, for a constant sore throat. Then years later I learned that it's probably best to leave those in the body. In my case, I think treating the infection would have been a better option. I don't know if my brother's surgery helped or not, but the way our mom figured out he was hard of hearing is by asking him if he wanted some ice cream one day. He didn't get all excited about it. That's how she figured he mustn't have heard what she said. I don't remember hearing about those cochlear implants when we were young. My hearing wasn't bad when I was young, but it got worse through the years due to my lifestyle. When you get older everything fades a little, but I don't think I need a hearing aid even though I tell my brother he ought to get one. It bugs my sister that I don't wear glasses like the rest of my siblings do except to read. Anyway, since you said you enjoyed that last link, here are a couple of good ones for you.
Welcome Central - **FIRST POST MUST BE MADE HERE / Re: Hi There :-)
« Last post by RonnyTX on October 27, 2014, 04:28:17 PM »
Right, "ecclesia" is literally "out-called," and it usually refers to those of us called out of the world to be the "body of Christ." Acts 19:32 just shows how the word was used for a secular purpose.

Ronny to Tom:
Another interesting part of this to me,is not only are we the ecclesia/church,the called out ones;but in the scripture,we are also described as the body of Jesus Christ,the temple of God. And if and when I choose to listen to them on TV,I can hear a number of preachers, preaching about what they believe will be a future,rebuilt Jewish temple.  But at this moment,I can't remember hearing these same preachers,talk about the temple that is in the here and now. That is,the temple in this age,that is made up of all,who have been born of God. I wonder,why I so seldom hear any preacher,preach on and talk about that?

Tom to Ronny:
I don't watch TV at all because it's boring to me. So I don't watch TV preachers. I prefer to read scripture and communicate on this forum. I think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, is distinct from the church those preachers are leading, and that's why you don't hear the same thing you'll get from an accurate translation of scripture.

Tom to Ronny:
I think you're right that the ecclesia/church/body of Jesus Christ is a different thing from the denominational type preachers and churches I was speaking about. Though of course, there are people in those who are also members of the ecclesia/church/body/temple of Jesus Christ.  Put there by God and not by themself or by any denominational type preacher.

And in the past,all that I had was the scripture as translated by various people and some deniminational type  preachers on TV. And some of those God has used to bless me, even though I knew they were wrong on somethings. Well,even when both they and I didn't rightly understand somethings,God still used one denominational type TV preacher,to free me from "worship" of preachers and denominational teaching.

The one thing that really bothers me about any denominational preacher,that I might see and sometimes watch on TV,is that all of them believe and teach that a lost person must in some way save themself. That,by their supposed "free will." Too,though some will seldom if ever mention such,in the background of their teaching,there is always the denominational type teaching if threatening the lost person with a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal punishment. I know that's wrong now and I hate to see that false threat used in any way. But,I think I need to keep in mind,that at least some who believe this and are wrong about it,at least some of them sincerely believe what they are saying. And at least that's better than the ones who simply teach/preach such to try and control some people and get money out of them.

Tom to Ronny:
That's the problem with church doctrine. You have to save yourself from eternal punishment in an pagan hell of torture in fire forever. Scripture says we're chosen before the disruption of the world, and it's in grace through faith that we're saved, not of works.

"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Ronny to Tom:
Amen! :-) And I knew when God saved me,that it was God who did that for me and not me saving myself. For it was God who let me know I was lost,God who led me to repentance toward God and God who took me on to faith in Jesus Christ. :-) So,I knew Who was there when I was 16 years old,I knew Who saved me. :-) Yet as I've said,I was brought up in a Calvinistic type teaching/preaching church and taught by some people; but not by God,that what God did for me,God only did for a few people,out of the whole human race.  That latter part isn't true;but I believed it for many years and only came to see how false it was,when God showed me better,around 4 and a half year ago. :-) When God showed me,that in Adam all died and that in Jesus Christ all would be made alive.
:-) And that there was no such thing as a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal punishment. And when I saw the last part,I though how could anyone believe otherwise,for God is love? And it simply makes no sense,that God who is love,would create a hell of eternal punishment,not even for just one person! But I had believed God had created that hell and that simply because I was brought up in church,taught to believe such. Taught that by some people;but not by God.

Tom to Ronny
Amen. I was taught the same kind of stuff in the Catholic Church, but we're free from that nonsense now that we know the truth.

Ronny to Tom:
Amen and I know we both thank God for that! :-)

And I've lived here with my oldest Sis now,for several months and I also have another sister,a  bit older than me,who lives in a local town.  Several months ago,I was up at her house visiting and I told her that I was no longer a Calvinist in belief,as we'd been brought up in church and taught. That part didn't  bother her,as both my sisters,after they married,sometime after that they and their husbands ended up at other local churches,who were Armenian/free will in belief and both came to see and believe things that way. So it didn't bother this sister at all,when I told her I was no longer Calvinist in belief;but what bothered her,was when I told her my belief now,was that God had elected/chosen to save all people and that by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. And she really flipped out and got mad, :-( when I told her as well,that I no longer believed in a Jesus Christ created hell,of eternal punishment.  I  mean,she really got loud and mad about that! :-( So that day,I stopped talking to her about such and soon went home.

Now our other and older sister,that I've lived with for  awhile now,she doesn't agree with me on how I see and believes somethings now;but then she doesn't get flipping out mad, because she and I,don't see/agree on everything alike. This sister is also now, Armenian/free will in belief. And just a short while back,she and I were at one of our older brothers house,having supper with and playing games with our brother and his wife.
This brother,who was brought up in the same church as the rest of us,he's still Calvinistic in belief. And my older sister is Democrat and this older brother is Republican. So when it comes to religion and politics,when I'm around these two together,I never have brought up those things! (ha) LoL But the other night and I don't know who said something first; but my oldest sister,she let my older brother know that he was wrong and Armenian/free will was right. :-) Then this brother said something back and sister said something as well. With my bad hearing,I wasn't fully sure what she said? So I ask her some more and got a better grasp,of what she was saying. Right now,I don't remember exactly what that was? But I did up and say,that yes,I did believe that God had elected/chose who would be saved;but that the scripture,in Adam all died and in Jesus Christ all were made alive- that scripture showed that God had elected/chosen to save every person. But my older brother,still Calvinistic in belief,he didn't agree with me on that. :-) Wasn't quite sure what he said,what with my bad hearing? But I think he may believe that the people refererred to in that all verse are only those few,who he has been taught to believe,are the elect/chosen of God,to be saved? Much like we were raised up and taught to believe in church,that John 3:16 didn't mean God loved every person;but only those,that God had chosen/elected to save. Then this brother wrote down some scripture references and gave those to out sister. I'm sure it was scripture,that he believed proved how he believes it and which he believes,disproves out sisters Aremnian/free will way of believing. But our brother,he didn't write down any scripture references for me,to try and show me,why I was wrong on what I said. Not sure why he didn't?

Pretty soon,I will be trying out another hearing aid. :-) Can get one every 5 or 6 years, through Medicaid. Just hope the next one,works better than the one I now have. And from what I've read on some of this,I'm pretty set on what type of hearing aid I would like to try now. A body aid hearing aid,that is stronger than others. Up to now,I've always worn a behind the ear hearing aid. And I've asked at a local hearing aid place,if I can get a body type aid,with my Medicaid? And they told me,no problem on that. :-) And my hearing loss,is between severe and profound. So it was good to read some online,about some other people with that type of a hearing loss and how a modern day body aid hearing aid,had helped them. :-) And it sure would be nice to have such,that might help me that much? :-)

Didn't mean to get off on hearing aids that much! (ha) LoL But my hearing loss is one big reason,that I don't say somethings to some people,on  a face to face basis. And it is also why I am so glad to be online,where I can post in groups like this. :-) Here,I only have to be able to see and read and not hear! :-)  LoL

Tom to Ronny:
My hearing isn't as good as it used to be due to skin diving, loud music, guns, Harleys, and working with very loud machines. I've got a brother whose hearing is worse than mine though. Here's a link for you comparing Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism.

Ronny to Tom:
Thank you Tom. :-) I'm been reading some on that link and some other connected to it,for parts of the last two days and I've really enjoyed that. :-)

Sorry to hear about your hearing and your brothers too. :-(  Hope hearing aids,can help the both of you? Yesterday,I went with my oldest Sis,over towards Dallas,Texas. We took dinner and ate with her youngest boy,his wife and their 3 month old. Sure is a sweet kid and Sis and I got to be at the hospital,earlier in the summer,when he was born. :-) I told his parents that they must be fertilizing him,'cause that boy,he sure is growing! :-) LoL

A few days ago,Sis told me something about him,her youngest grandbaby. I didn't understand it all and I think I didn't want to,so I didn't ask her to say it again or write such down for me,so I would know for sure,what she was saying. But after we got back here yesterday,she told me again last night. Seems at least one doctor thinks,that her youngest grandson is deaf! :-( And we both talked about it and both wondering,how can a doctor tell,that a 3 month old is deaf or how bad of a hearing loss,he might have? 
And when we talked to the baby and smiled at him,he would smile back and look real happy. :-) But I have no idea,if he was hearing us or not? Or just going by our facial expressions and us holding and hugging and playing with him,etc?

One thing Sis told me,that bothers me too,is that this doctor or doctors,already have told the childs parents,that they want to do an operation on him,about his ears. The best I understand it now,they want him to have what's called a colchear (sp?) implant. I need to ask Sis about this again,just to be sure? But last night I was telling her,I had read about that operation and implant before and it can be good for someone,who is completely deaf   
or right close to that. Someone,that a regular hearing aid,just will not help at all. And before,I've read up on this coclear implant proceedure and I need to do so again. I'm not sure if I 100% remember this part right or not? But if seems to me,that when they do such an implant,they cut the nerve part,that goes to your ear. And that is the part, where sounds are transmitted,from one part of the ear to the brain. This,so a person can hear. And it bothers me,that they would do such,on a 3 month old baby. Maybe I'm wrong on this? But like Sis,I sure would like them to wait a bit longer,to be absolutely sure about how much or little,this 3 months olds hearing loss is? Because once they do cut that nerve in the ear,you are definately deaf through the normal way our ears work and the best I understand it now,such a cutting of that nerve,can never be undone. Or at least, that's the best I remember reading about such,just a few years ago.  Want to go back and read more about that online. See if I'm remembering this part right and if so,if it's still the same way today or not? Never know,because it was probably 3 to 5 years ago, when I read about the  coclear implant operation,etc and in that amount of time,a good bit can change,in the medical field.

And thank you again,for that link you put in your last post to me. :-) I have had a good time,reading on that page and some connected to it.  And as I've said,I was brought up in 
in Calvinists type believing/teaching church. So I was taught to believe that God only chose/elected to save a very small percent of the human race and the rest,they simply died and went to hell.  Then the Arminian side,I knew that they taught that God could save no one,so only a few would use their "free will" and be saved and the rest would go to hell. So one side said God could save everyone;but chose not to and the other said God couldn't save anyone;but the lost person had to save themself.  And I have the bad feeling,that there are more than a few people on both of those sides and in local churches,who truly hate the idea,that God not only can save everyone,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross,not only can;but has chosen/elected to do that very thing. Yeah,it bothers me a lot,to think that some people can really hate that idea/belief. It's hard for me to imagine,why anyone on the Calvinist side,would have even the idea of UR? Unless they some how thought that would make them less special to God? And the very idea of that,like that,is idiotic! And on the Arminian side, I have seen how some there,think they are more special,because they have been taught to believe the lie,that God couldn't save them,so they had to do something,to save themself. Then some on that side,they jump all over the lost person,to do as they believe they did and they tell the lost person,that in that way,they can also save themself. Then some on that side,they get mad and angry,if the lost person doesn't believe them and do as they tell them to do.

I better stop for now and go walk my little dog. I'm sure he's wondering,just where I am this morning?! (ha) He's mostly a miniture Doberman by breed,weights all of 10 pounds; but he thinks he's a big dog! :-) LoL
Judgement and Punishment / Re: What is the Lake of Fire?
« Last post by Tom on October 27, 2014, 03:09:31 PM »
It is commonly believe that it is a fire that will torture body and soul for all eternity, but what is it in the context of Universal Salvation.

Scripture says the lake of fire is the second death. The dead will not be conscious to be tortured, and they won't be dead for all eternity because death will be abolished at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Judgement and Punishment / Re: What is the Lake of Fire?
« Last post by Seth on October 27, 2014, 07:12:14 AM »
There's a really good conversation about that here:

Christian Life / Re: Path of Truth
« Last post by micah7:9 on October 27, 2014, 06:38:03 AM »

Yet at the same time, it appears they exercise a lot of man's control in that they categorize anyone who disagrees with them as "unsaved" or "false teachers".

Being familiar with many of the teachers on their list- i would say most everyone on this site would be categorized as "false" by them.

I am not saying they are false teachers. I am saying they seem to have a veryy sectarian attitude. That's just my opinion of course.

 :iagree: :thumbsup:
Hellbusters Hallow / Re: God is real, but hell is a lie.
« Last post by micah7:9 on October 27, 2014, 06:36:26 AM »
Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by UniversalSceptic on October 27, 2014, 06:31:59 AM »
Keep in mind, Marie, that the concept of "forever" is a modern construct, somewhat alien to the thinking of the ancients - kind of like the concepts of "zero" and "infinity," which did not exist in ancient times, at least not explicitly.

I'm probably going to take a beating over that...

Can you prove it though. In order stand up against the doctrine of Hell, we need to be able to prove it.
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