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Bible Threatenings Explained / Another Look at the Fire of God
« Last post by eaglesway on February 26, 2015, 09:31:24 PM »
2 Thess 1:6  since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. (NKJV)

This is a common proof text against universal reconciliation. Their are some translation issues here, but they can be ironed out contextually as well, so no one needs to rely "simply" on translation, which I will show later on down the page.

"olethron aionian" is the Greek for "eternal destruction" inverse 9. Young(YLT) transaltes this "destruction age-during".

Some versions, the NASB for example, translate it as eternal destruction "away from" the presence of the Lord, but the word is "apo" which in 570 some uses is almost universally "from" or "of". The destruction is coming from the presence of the Lord, or, of the presence of the Lord. Most versions have it right, and it will be confirmed from some parallel verses.

So, to establish some context, I was looking at 2 Thess 1:6-10 alongside 2 Pet 3:7-13 and Hebrews 12:22-28 and a few other parallel verses and a lot of things come clear, at least for me, when I look at these portions of scripture together. Especially clear is the purifying nature of fire.

Fire either purifies or transforms.

"Our God is a consuming fire" is the concluding statement of the "Yet once more, I will shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains" passage in Hebrews 12.

So fire, which is in Jesus eyes in Rev 1(eye is the light of the soul, fulness/fire of God in Christ) is the nature of God(fire/light/love)

Mark 9:49 Every man will be salted with fire and every sacrifice seasoned with salt. To me this states the inevitable process of transformation through fire on two levels- everyman(all, universal through the ages in life and death, heaven, earth, underearth) and every sacrifice(those who have offered themselves).

Here Jesus speaks of fire "seasoning the sacrifices"(believers, subjected ones)- Fire is the nature of God, we are being "seasoned" with the divine nature, the flavor and aroma of Christ. God scourges every son whom He receives, and without correction we are illegitimate children. Fiery trials purify faith, etc.

He also speaks of "Every man"(unbelievers, unsubjected ones)being salted fire: fire, as time, consumes the life of the unbeliever, all its lusts and rewards, its progeny and ideals, and then, in the presence of God in the Light of the Day, its rebellion.

It is all about transformation- the nature of fire is that it transforms and tests the nature of whatever is in it.

There are these various levels of correction, but the correction is in all its levels essentially the same in nature, whether it is the purifying of our faith thru fiery trials in the now, or the burning off of our works of mixed motives(wood hay stubble), the soul being saved but as through fire, or being delivered over for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit will be ssaved in the Day of the Lord or the experience of aionian kolassis,i.e. gehenna or the lake of fire.

Fire burning chaff. He will separate the wheat from the chaff- the seeds of grain are gathered in, then beaten on the threshing floor, then winnowed with a broom that blows the chaf(light surface coating/flesh) out from the seeds. The seeds are then ground leavened and baked(fire again) and distributed for sustenace. The chaff is burned with "unquenchable fire"- not fire that never goes out- it fire that utterly consumes the chaff(flesh/carnal mind/darkness).

Fire burning trees. "Now the axe is laid to the root of the trees". Jesus is speaking of people and groups of people in authority, that have grown up together, that cast a shadow, but that are no longer trees of life- they get "chopped down"- made irrevelant, revealed as futile, frivolous, unfruitful- and "cast into the fire".The fire is that which is consuming the things that are consummable- wood hay and stubble, versus gold, silver and precious stone. Which again, is purifying and corrective.

Again the fire is removing that which is "passing"(yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth till only that which cannot be shaken remains) and that which is "natural"- of man, not of the spirit, not of the new creation.

2 pet 3:7-13 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.........the passage of time and the rust of corruption are themselves "perdition/ruination/lostness/apollumi"-all life a veil growing thin with time and rending in death- passage from night to day, temporal to eternal.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Fully transformed.

The elements melting away- elements, "stoicheion", are the same elements as the "elemental principles" to which we are no longer to be subject(Colossians 2)- they are of the earth, earthly, soulical(James 3;13-17). Hebrews 5 uses the same word(elementary principles) of the oracles of God. By faith we know that the worlds were "framed" by the word of God. Stoicheion being both "elements" and "elementary principles"- the earthly(temporal) things consumed by fire until the heavenly things appear.

Peter is revealing the process more than an event(imo) even tho the process is highlighted and transitions through events and periods with specific functional purposes,
but always is the same in its nature and root purpose, which is consuming the temporal(lower nature) recreating out of fire "new things"/ spirit- a "new heavens and new earth(1:individul 2:corporate 3:universal) in which dwelleth righteousness(transformation....light out of darkness 2 Cor 4:6)

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So in 1 Cor 3:15 the fire is burnng up wood, hay and stubble(mixed motive works as temporal/lightweight) and leaving only the foundation and those unshakeable things built upon it(gold silver precious stone) things that are not consumed by fire(I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts).
The same in John 15, the branches that "abide/continue/dwell" in the Vine(nature of God through the root, Christ)

John sees Jesus with fire in His eyes, and Paul sees 'on the Day God will judge the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ, their conscience either excusing or accusing them(Rom 2)"

And those who are accused.....

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone(theon) in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Jukes made the point about theon, as a word used, or coined, to describe the fire used to sanctify goblets and such for use in Greek rituals. And it is clearly "in the presence of God" in Rev 14- I think it is surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses also(Heb 12 general assembly) which is(imo) manifest in 2 Thess 1:10

"IF AT LEAST RIGHTEOUS (IT IS) IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD TO REPAY THOSE OPPRESSING YOU IN TRIBULATION(definitely justice)

AND TO YOU BEING OPPRESSED REOSE WITH US AT THE REVELATION(apokalypsei) OF JESUS CHRIST WITH HIS HOLY ANGELS


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting(aionian) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIIED IN HIS SAINTS, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY.

All these images in 2 Thess 1:6-10, for me personally, flow together with the Hebrews 12 assembly( as the lake of fire, the wine press of the wrath of God,the Lamp, the reservoir of light overflowing the remnats of the darkness, kind of the ultimate view of Ephesians anakepholaiomai(gathering together of all things into one in Christ) and 1 Cor 15, the subjection of every adversary until God becomes all in all.

HEB 12: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMMING FIRE.
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I haven't seen the movie or the video, but seems to me "50 shades of grey" used to be a famous phrase..? using 50 that is? (googling it was no help at all!)
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Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved / Re: Hebrews 5:9
« Last post by marie glen on February 26, 2015, 09:00:04 PM »

yes.  just trying to make sure i'm being clear what i'm saying..i think that's what many miss, sort of "oh, you believe in UR, so that means you think you can live like you want, you don't even have to believe, God's going to save everybody anyway".  But i'm saying, that's not what a true believer says, nor how someone following Christ lives.  He works in a believer's life, to do His good pleasure.  Again, I think there are just some misunderstandings of what Biblical, Christian ultimate reconciliation is. 

 Never mind if one has called on the name of the Lord, believed and trust Him as Savior, and is in surrender to Him. :(


I think that's very true, and most think UR is all paths lead to the Father, or all saved but without repentance and being born again, and following via the Spirit..
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:iagree:

Too, it seems to me that if the infinite punishment position were true,  then Jesus would still be in a state of death, yet somehow kept alive to endure a merciless torture endlessly for the sins of the whole world.

And as terrible as death is, that is -all- that it is.  To borrow a contemporary phrase... " It is what it is."  The wages of sin is death etc.

Take it back to the garden....death.

All of that infinite punishment doctrine has just been added to God`s own words.



     :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
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:iagree:

Too, it seems to me that if the infinite punishment position were true,  then Jesus would still be in a state of death, yet somehow kept alive to endure a merciless torture endlessly for the sins of the whole world.

And as terrible as death is, that is -all- that it is.  To borrow a contemporary phrase... " It is what it is."  The wages of sin is death etc.

Take it back to the garden....death.

All of that infinite punishment doctrine has just been added to God`s own words.



     :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
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I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. :sigh:
That's an ET claim that's not found in the Bible. That gives me a liberty to state a counter claim...


Sinning against a infinite mercyful and loving God is just a detour to eternal life
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adders poison of the original serpent...first he said 'surely you will not die[all in Adam say 'LIAR!"  now he's saying God will

   destroy forever or eternally torment fallen man, totally disallowing Christ's redemption work of drawing all men up to return

  unto the Father from the grave[dead in sin and trespass].
88
 :iagree:

Too, it seems to me that if the infinite punishment position were true,  then Jesus would still be in a state of death, yet somehow kept alive to endure a merciless torture endlessly for the sins of the whole world.

And as terrible as death is, that is -all- that it is.  To borrow a contemporary phrase... " It is what it is."  The wages of sin is death etc.

Take it back to the garden....death.

All of that infinite punishment doctrine has just been added to God`s own words.

Besides the resurrection, of course, part of the very good news itself that Paul preached was that Jesus ---> died.  And He had to actually dismiss, give up, send away his spirit to do that, to die. This, in and of itself...was a miracle really.

Jesus satisfied everything which was necessary to fulfil God`s will; He was sent to do God`s will.  He said from the cross that it was accomplished.  He didn`t say that he had a few more things to do that would take an infinite amount of time.  :)
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Humor-Poems-Songs-Movies / Re: Found the headline funny
« Last post by eaglesway on February 26, 2015, 08:05:24 AM »
it will all come out in the wash  :banana:
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Ask them to read the Bible, His Word and should they find evidence of such a thought as, "Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. "
 If you must.... lead them to 1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Seems to me an ETers out look is, see how good I am and see how bad you are, God is going to make you pay because you would not listen, and well I'll get a pat on the back. :2c:

If sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty, then the central reason for creation is punishment, the ultimate effect of God's righteousness is destruction, and sin triumphs over salvation, as the impotent cross of Christ crumbles into the flames of hell, lost to the consciousness of a multitude of beings formed from the beginning for the purpose of demonstrating how terrible a god is YHWH, the infinite punisher.

The truth is, sinning against an infinite God reveals the infinite love of God and the infinite vision of Jesus,

"If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me"




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