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I understand I think what you're getting at.  I believe some of these things are such "hard sayings" for our finite humanity, what we think is our "logical" mind can't understand or accept.  Thus, so many reject and "know better", or turn away from the truth and even the faith, "knowing better".  Which of course leads to shipwreck of faith and destruction - for self, and sometimes for others.

My view on such deep things is so surface, sometimes I just have to go back to what the scripture says and sort of leave it at that, with "I don't know why God chose to do it like that but He did" - so I need to trust Him.  That everything He does has a reason and is perfect ("in Him is no evil") - whether I can see it or understand it or not.  So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.  Don't have the ready reference, but Jesus purchased us, paid the price.  By His stripes.  I believe He is the atonement.  Exactly why and what all God was thinking, I don't know.  I just believe it says He did and is. 
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Welcome to tentmaker :o)

While I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ has secured salvation for all men, I would disagree with the statement all men are saved they just dont realize it yet- because the scriptures say otherwise.

Saved means "healed, delivered, made whole"(sozo-grk).

If faith is realization, then one must realize in order to receive- by grace are you saved through faith.

That healing is not accessible to those who have not believed, or realized, or been "gathered into one in Christ".

As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive-but each in his own order(1 cor 15)

As yet those who are in Adam have not been made alive- but they shall be.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- but they have not all done so yet.

I actually dislike the word saved because it has been so tied to ET doctrine that I think it has lost its original meaning and always has "from hell" attached to it in the mind. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be healed works better for me".

Christ has died for all, but until they realize it, they cannot receive the benefits of it, which is being saved/healed/restored- incorporated in Christ. The benefit is deliverance, healing, wholeness, restoration--- salvation is union with God through Jesus Christ. Becoming partakers of the divine nature, grafted into and abiding in the vine.

To me, salvation is experiential, not theoretical. It may be in the bank for you, but you cant have it till you get your name on the account.

Also, when explaining the salvation of all to other Christians, I think it is important to stay consistently in tune with the language of the scriptures.


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..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.


Let's keep thinkin' about that :)

"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.

Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)."  - Home Church Network Assoc.

I get what you're saying.. God cannot possibly let sin (imperfection) go.. one little taint changes the universe.. ..but that isn't what I was going to say! - He cannot 'let' sin.. that He cannot pardon a sin without a replacement.. without payment.. atonement..  (I had better wording but forgot it!) :Chinscratch: the wages, result of sin is death, an unchangeable law and fact..?
             :gsmile:
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: U.R. in every New Testament book
« Last post by marie glen on August 30, 2014, 05:37:26 PM »
There are also four accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, and He did NOT say to the onlookers, "You're all going to Hell," but instead said, "Forgive them, Father..."

Amen. I always wondered why Lord Jesus would say "Forgive them, Father" if he knew they were all going to be tortured for eternity anyways

      :rolllol: :LH:   :smile: haha! no kidding! (aka, absolutely!)
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Hi Charlie Brown,

Great first post.  I agree that UR changes the way that we look at those who are unrealized.

Actually the change an the way that the world is viewed is one of the strongest reasons to believe in UR.

We are able to love world just as God loves the world.  Before UR it was not that easy. 

Great post.  How and when did you first start to realize UR?



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What was that I didn't hear you?
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Welcome Charlie Brown II      :welcome:

  I love your post !  Feeling exactly the same,
 
  and learning daily !!! :icon_flower:
 
   
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Welcome, CB II!  I like your inclusionistic attitude toward the "unsaved."  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:
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FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #1

Some day everyone is going to learn that it was not even possible for them TO NOT start trusting in Jesus as their Saviour when they did start trusting in Him.

The reason we know that everyone will eventually be saved is because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."

My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement (kolasis aionios) that He has promised to everyone who needs it.

Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
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Hi Everyone!

Just wanted to link in with you all. Being a Christian Universalist is not comfortable in my church climate so I value your fellowship and a chance to encourage and be encouraged!

I would like to post on all kinds of things but didn't want to start by being too heavy. Once I've said 'hello' maybe we can start chatting.

I am in the UK working as a Hospice Chaplain and helping to lead a small church.

I have a special interest in 'Real Atonement'. By this I basically mean the belief that Christ's death achieved salvation for all, with immediate effect for all people, past present and future. This is achieved by God alone and does not depend on faith to complete it. Faith is only our realisation of the fact of atonement, an opening of the heart by God's Spirit to the wonderful salvation Jesus has already achieved for us.

Christians are the ones that have believed and realised this fact and enjoy the benefits. Non Christians are also saved; they just haven't believed or realised it yet. But not believing does not change the efficacy of Christ's atonement for their sin. For example, if a court lets someone off a fine but the offender does not know it, this does not mean he is not let off!

This radically changes how I see non-Christians. They are 'right with God' already, through the work Christ has done, and are able to experience God on occasions, no matter what belief is held by them. But they haven't realised the enormity of their privileges in Christ.

So 'I no longer see anyone from a human point of view' 2 Cor. 5.16

It would be great to hear from you

Shalom

Charlie Brown II     
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