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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by onesimus on September 20, 2014, 02:01:23 PM »
i appreciate all that you and the others have been trying to help me with in this nightmare....i just read another thread here about hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31...even if am forgiven fo rhwat i thought was blapshmey of the hs, then what about being in an apostate/reprobate condition? i know his spirit is not with me and so how can his grace an dlove and mercy still apply to me?  i am unable to repent unless god works it into my heart an di right now feel very "stuck" which is why i chose my "name"...i know i feel sorry for all i have done...i know i want to be changed and to be restored, but according to those verses its impossible....if the cu[being purged and reconciled] is wrong i can only look forward to the wrath and hatred of god who will throw me into a lake of fire which is torment forever...i never wanted to think of god as being this way, but after these scriptures suggest and then many ot stories about how he seemed to be angry all the time and seeking to destroy his enemies[even though we are supposed to love our enemies-confused in this]...he is very capable of of being unmericiful to those whom he hates and has turned against....why did paul write about those whom he "fashioned" to be evil/wicked to be set apart for the day of destruction and that those who are not his elect were predestined for this? it seems everything-god and the scriptures- are against me...  the more i try to find hope in scriptures, the more convinced i am i have no hope because of them-they are his word and he means what he says...

Hi LB, I read your post and see you are in a lot of torment...I pray to the Lord, that he would send you peace... Do you have anyone around you? Is there someone you can ask to help you with this and pray with you or that you can just spend some time with?

I'm a little hesitant to answer you regarding the verses in Hebrew. They really have nothing to do with you in your current situation - even though you are convinced they do (psst: don't trust anything your head says. The human mind is often like a runaway train :)). Also, I think that your present state might make it very difficult to filter a lot of bible analysis, especially in a way that comforts you. Maybe shutting the bible for a while might be a good idea....and asking God just to give you some peace and guidance, rather than pouring over scriptures continually, particularly the ones that are challenging (even to the guys with 'theologian' printed on their business card :) ) 

Having said that, if you find yourself compulsively going back to Hebrews, please keep this in mind, when reading the verse:

 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance...."

The word impossible means unable or powerless - in the way that a person can be powerless and unable to bring something about. It does not mean impossible in the way that it can't happen. In this verse, it means that man does not have the power or ability to bring himself back to repentance and salvation...

In this case, we are all powerless/unable to effect salvation. Whether we have already tasted it or whether we are not yet in it..     

The exact same word is used here in Matt 19:25, when the disciples asked Jesus who can be saved..

"When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We are all dependent upon God to work his salvation in us. We're all in the same boat (And it's not the titanic..)

Everything is ok..
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by lostnbroken on September 20, 2014, 08:07:49 AM »
i appreciate all that you and the others have been trying to help me with in this nightmare....i just read another thread here about hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31...even if am forgiven fo rhwat i thought was blapshmey of the hs, then what about being in an apostate/reprobate condition? i know his spirit is not with me and so how can his grace an dlove and mercy still apply to me?  i am unable to repent unless god works it into my heart an di right now feel very "stuck" which is why i chose my "name"...i know i feel sorry for all i have done...i know i want to be changed and to be restored, but according to those verses its impossible....if the cu[being purged and reconciled] is wrong i can only look forward to the wrath and hatred of god who will throw me into a lake of fire which is torment forever...i never wanted to think of god as being this way, but after these scriptures suggest and then many ot stories about how he seemed to be angry all the time and seeking to destroy his enemies[even though we are supposed to love our enemies-confused in this]...he is very capable of of being unmericiful to those whom he hates and has turned against....why did paul write about those whom he "fashioned" to be evil/wicked to be set apart for the day of destruction and that those who are not his elect were predestined for this? it seems everything-god and the scriptures- are against me...  the more i try to find hope in scriptures, the more convinced i am i have no hope because of them-they are his word and he means what he says...
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Hidden in the mitzvah
« Last post by gregoryfl on September 20, 2014, 04:16:59 AM »
Shalom Rose,

Thanks for sharing that. I think you see in it the slave David being set free from his enemies, is that correct?

The connection I had in mind is a very little known request of God made by David in the Psalms. It is the only place in the Scripture where God is asked to knock out teeth, which God inspired David to write:
Break their teeth, God, in their mouth. Break out the great teeth of the young lions, Yahweh.
(Psa 58:6)

I believe there is a connection here, hidden in David's indignation toward the wicked, that speaks of their ultimate freedom. This would be similar to the mitzvah in Torah of someone digging a pit and letting someone fall into it. The digger of the pit would still be responsible even though they did not push the person into the pit. This too provides a hidden lesson in Torah concerning God, who dug a pit (placed a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden with the tree of life) of which a serpent (the most subtle of his creations) would entice Eve to eat from, and Adam to follow. God was not to blame, but was responsible (as he set out the cookie jar so to speak) and thus looked upon for the remedy to the damages caused.

There are many such hidden hints which make torah study truly a treasure.

Ronen
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There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....

Yes..for me, in my understanding, God has often given us the things we wanted (even when they were not what was best for us). It is a little like using food to entice a wounded wild animal into safety, gradually, ever so slowly, wooing it to trust you....like the verse in Hosea that says "I led Israel along with my ropes of kindness and love. I lifted the yoke from his neck, and I myself stooped to feed him." God stooping to feed us..
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Thanks for the reply onesimus and all.  (I'll PM you later onesimus).

It's ok, Jabcat :) I'm in a different time zone and signing off soon - for a few hours - and u might not get me on PM

I'm just glad I've worked out how to quote and cut and paste to answer people..
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Lounge / Re: Deu 4:24 for Jehovah thy God is a fire consuming--a zealous God.
« Last post by eaglesway on September 20, 2014, 03:30:46 AM »
 :iagree:
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There are a lot of fuzzy things about this. For instance; the writ of divorce was given by Moses, not by God's design, but because of "the hardness of their hearts". God gave the people a king, not because He wanted to- but because they demanded one, sort of like they asked for meat in the wilderness.....yet He had incorporated in the law, commandments for kings, before kings were ever anointed. Imo, there is always a level of discernment and context required, because some commandments were absolutely from the heart of God for training in righteousness and preservation of life, community and love- a "tutor unto Christ".

Once in Christ, He is the fulfillment of the law unto righteousness by faith. Anyone following Him fulfills the law. how do we follow Him? In spirit and truth. To me this means growing in understanding the scriptures and knowing Him in the Spirit.
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Thanks for the reply onesimus and all.  (I'll PM you later onesimus).

In the context of this whole discussion, anyone have any thoughts on the following?  Thanks.

"The shed blood on the cross and of the O.T. animals was necessary because God told us in Lev. 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement."  Atonement is a cleansing, a removal of sin.  So, animal sacrifices were a temporary atonement that foreshadowed the real and permanent atonement of Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14).

Hebrews 9:11-14, "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Christian Apologetics



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In this discussion on sacrifice, if God did not require it, but instead gave it to us as a way for us to be ok with our sin, then we might come to the place where we see that God also did not require Jesus to die. Although, he was pleased to offer his his son as a guilt offering, he did it for us, to give us a way to be free from the neurotic cycle of judgement, guilt and shame that had been with us since the fall..

Man's justice required that someone pay for all the wrong. Man's vengeance demanded it be God.

He obliged us on both counts..

I disagree with your assessment of the sacrifice.  I believe the sacrifice and Jesus' blood atonement did much more than relieve us of our self-induced neurosis.  I'm not sure where you come up with all your conclusions, but I believe the scriptures teach something much different than that.

Thanks, Jabcat. Yes and yes on Jesus's death being much more than this type of relief :)

MY conclusions, if that is what they are, come from walking a long and windy road both in my life and through the scriptures..

I sense annoyance from you...and I wonder if that is real or whether it is just that I'm not familiar with you...It is hard to tell on the internet. In real life much of the way we communicate is in tone, body language and facial expression...but none of this is visible in an online forum..
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Thank you for your explanation and clarification. I think I understand what you are getting at. When I read Psalm 51 in its entirety, I see that David is peering into the new covenant, at the promise, and how that, as Eaglesway explained how that the sacrifice was to take on a spiritual meaning, doing away with the burnt offerings and we become the sacrifice (verse 17). What God was getting was burnt sacrifice without the broken spirit, and that is what makes the Law weak, and why Christ was able to do what the Law was not able to do (Romans 8), in sending the Spirit.

I do see that God required the sacrifices by way of commandment as a sign of Christ to come, and that he was slain from the foundation. The burnt sacrifices provide a reminder of sin, and the Spirit provides the death of sin.
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