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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Last post by Tom on November 21, 2014, 07:42:55 PM »
I think most of us here have experienced that. I went through most of my life not even knowing about universal reconciliation. Then, when I became aware of it, I didn't want to believe it because I thought it was a lie due to the powerful influence of orthodoxy on all believers who have not yet come to understand the truth of scripture. I would say to all who do not yet believe it, do what I did. Try to get as much information about it as possible, and make sure it all conforms to an accurate translation of scripture. It is really important to read scripture correctly translated or you won't see the truth.
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Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by Molly on November 21, 2014, 07:34:54 PM »
Quote
  and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised 
Maybe,  but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.

Destroying Babylon sounds like war.
     Maybe is not man  ,    flesh and blood no not inherit    anything to do with the Holy union  covenant     Jesus come   to bring war and divisions   Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict  ..
Well the timing is in the God ordained feasts.
Feasts were announced with a certain combination of shofars, silver trumpets and blast patterns played on them. Those things have several nicknames like shout and blast. When reading Revelation the trumpets and shofars give timing. Note that trumpets and shofars are not the same. That's very important to know because they have distinctive meaning in God's plan/timing/salvation.

The feasts have many nicknames that existed long before Jesus was born. Jesus obviously isn't going to marry a dead bride. The trumpet/shofars of Revelation start with Jewish New year the last trump*.
The last trump is also known as the awakening blast. Resurrection of the bride. Shortly after the next feast is nicknamed the call of the Messiah. Just like millions Jewish grooms have 'called' their bride so the Messiah-Jesus-groom calls His bride elect. It's getting a bit to complex after that to keep anyone interested so I just say all those things point toward a marriage supper long before Babylon falls.
If you closely follow all the events you will also notice rapture is just another manmade doctrine because in the whole book of Revelation we read about saints being oppressed and killed (rivers, ships, souls under the alter), etc. That won't happen if they were transported to heaven just before Jacob's trouble tribulation begins.

The use of the feasts always was to show God's plan. Harvest feasts....
They pointed the suffering-servant-Jesus of 2000 years ago. But they also point to king-Jesus of Revelation. It's quite simple: Every Revelation interpretation not aligning with the feasts is false doctrine.


*= The Last Trump isn't last Trump (of Revelation) at all.
Before the Jewish New year there was a whole month of 'preparing/calling'. Each and every day of that month a trumpet was sounded. 30 days in a row. That ended when the month ended at New year. The last trump is the last trump of that series.
So the Last Trump isn't the end at all. It's when the groom get's really active and resurrects His bride which is just the beginning of things.

 :2c:

Agree on the last trump.  I would be interested in hearing more of what you said would not keep anyone interested.  I'm very interested.

Don't forget there are two classes of virgins--the wise and the foolish virgins.  The foolish virgins do not have oil for their lamps, so when the groom comes, they are not ready and the door is shut in their faces.   That is half who will not be raptured.  They are the ones who will be around during the time of Jacob's trouble.


35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

--Daniel 11


I haven't been able to find anything named 'the call of the Messiah.'   Is that the feast of Trumpets?

Many are called but few are chosen? 


Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

--Lk 21:26



"to escape"

G1628
ἐκφεύγω
ekpheugō
ek-fyoo'-go
From G1537 and G5343; to flee out: - escape, flee.



9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,  10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"  11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

--Rev 7


So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.  And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 

--Rev 7
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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Re: Romans 3:25
« Last post by Tom on November 21, 2014, 07:33:33 PM »
Propriation only for believers ?

God bless you

"And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also." (1 John 2:2)
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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Re: Romans 3:25
« Last post by dajomaco on November 21, 2014, 07:29:34 PM »
Jesus was (is) propitiation for our sins.

Because of the above I was already Saved.

I did not believe I was Saved
My unbelief kept me from entering in to my salvation.

Someone filled with the Holy Spirit told me I was already Saved
I believed them and entered into my salvation.
My belief did not save me .

But I in my mind literally had NO salvation until I believed

  Finally, be strengthened by the Lord and by His vast strength.  11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can stand against the tactics[g] of the Devil.  12 For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens. 
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Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved / Re: Scary Words found in the Bible
« Last post by Seth on November 21, 2014, 07:20:40 PM »
 :iagree:
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Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved / Re: Scary Words found in the Bible
« Last post by CHB on November 21, 2014, 07:19:51 PM »
Lake of Fire
Eternal Damnation
Unquenchable Fire
Gnashing of Teeth
Outer Darkness
Perish
Destroy
Brimstone
Torment
Condemnation

..these are scary words indeed; it is no wonder that many who read them are misled and confused as to their contextual  meaning. It is acknowledged that for the Word of God to be revealed to us for understanding, that it must be so through the Holy Spirit, yet many have believed in Christ as our saviour sent by God, nevertheless, they (I) remain in darkness of understanding as to the question of what is indeed that we are being saved from exactly, if not from eternal separation from God, either in the form of spiritual death, soul annihilation, of hell, then from who or what? Speak to me in layman's terms, please.

The Bible says that we are saved from sin:

Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sin.


Here is what I think the fire, destruction, and darkness have to do with "he shall save people from their sin."

Isaiah 9
18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

James 3
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.


I believe God uses sin as a form of judgment (see Romans 1) a way to punish and humble mankind (Jeremiah 2:19, ecclesiastes 1:13). In his parables, Jesus said that some would be bound and turned over to the outer darkness, and yet he also said that man loves the darkness (John 3:19). So, God turns man over to something he loves, so that he will be humbled and corrected through judgment. I think that is why God compares sin to fire, because fire is erosive and takes that which is large, and reduces it in size. It causes humility through the destruction.

And it all, I believe, revolves around the target of salvation expressed in Matthew 1:21, which is to be saved from sin.

More here, if interested: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html


Hi All,

Been a long time since I have posted but this post caught my eye.

I believe we are going to be saved from this flesh that we were born with. We will be given an immortal body that has no sin associated with it. "In Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive."

CHB 
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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Re: Romans 3:25
« Last post by Seth on November 21, 2014, 07:15:40 PM »
In Romans 3:25, Paul is talking about the importance of faith. He is not saying that Jesus only died for believers, because as Rose showed us, Jesus is the savior of all men, especially believers. The word "especially" is an inclusive word, not exclusive. However, before the end comes and God is all in all, only believers receive the gift of righteousness through grace and faith, the righteousness that I believe is described in Titus 2:11-12: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

The reason Paul is talking about the importance of faith is because salvation from sin comes by way of the Holy Spirit, a gift given to believers. He never says that Jesus did not die for all, but that those who believe are being made righteous by the gift of grace given to them, which is the Spirit, and walking in it ("in this present world"), seeing that past sins have been forgiven. Because Christ died for all, all will eventually be saved, but each to his own order (1 Cor 15).
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Last post by Eduard on November 21, 2014, 07:11:27 PM »
He also said that there are no verses that state the unbelievers will have eternal life. The problem here is, like Tom also said, that not everyone understands what the concept of eonian life really means.

It must be hard for a believer like him to think of ET as a fact for his whole life and then someone else comes and teaches the opposite, I realise that.  :2c:
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: A little experiment I want to test.
« Last post by Seth on November 21, 2014, 07:03:38 PM »
I want to become a writer, but I am working on a separate project. A project that takes a verse from the Bible, quotes it correctly and then a verse helped that adds the "Eternal Torment" spin to it. Here is an example:

What the verse says:
Revelations 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How the Church interprets the verse:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any pain for those that dwell within in the Holy City. For the former things shall be reserved for the heathens that will dwell in the Lake of Fire forever.

Any feedback good or bad would be greatly appreciated.

Ok, so just to play Devil's advocate, an ETer can say that, in context, That verse refers to those who inherit the city only, not to those who are outside the gates. Look at verse 3 compared to verse 8.
I see your point, and I would have a thoughtful response to that as well, but then you have a problem of verses that contradict because the Bible says the former things have passed away which means it no longer exists. How can something pass away and still exist? Again, this was just a little experiment, but how would you word it differently out of curiosity.

My perspective on Revelation 20-22 is that it's revealing the establishment of the Kingdom in the earth and the day of the Lord. The results of that judgment are found in 1 Cor 15, where Paul describes "the end." The latter chapters of Revelation do not call themselves "the end." When Paul describes it, he says that "as in Adam all die, even so (in like manner) all shall be made alive." He goes on to describe how Jesus will place all enemies under his rule and authority, and destroy death. That's the end. And, the result is that God will be all in all.

Seems to me that ETers will say that God will be all in all...except...
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FORUM GUIDELINES and Admin Posts / Re: Slow Loading Tonight
« Last post by joeteekay on November 21, 2014, 07:03:21 PM »
This past one was particularly bad. I Googled the error message and it said it might be due to server space getting low.

I could not even get on yesterday. :sigh:
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