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71
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Seth on May 02, 2015, 12:42:34 AM »
Quote from: Tom
Verbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I agree. My only point was that just because the Bible doesn't verbatim say that unbelievers will receive eonian life, doesn't mean it won't happen. You can arrive at conclusions by analyzing the different parts and putting them together without needing verbatim statements to exist.

Quote from: Tom
I think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality.

You just said that life will end, but it won't end. Either life will end, or it will not.

Maybe it will cease being "eonian" (according to your view) without eons but that doesn't mean life itself will end. If so, according to a literal view of life ending, then they will all have to be killed, then resurrected after those two eons for life to continue on.

Either way, I agree that the "eonian" aspect of "eonian life" would become meaningless if eons ended, and it would simply be life. The question is WHAT is that life? According to the Bible it is GOD HIMSELF, not simply being self aware and conscious during an eon. GOD is the life. CHRIST is the life. He says that HE HIMSELF is the life, and that he also HAS immortality. And not everyone has that life (Christ) because not everyone believes. And if someone believes, they may have that life (Christ) in THIS eon, not simply in two future eons of being literally conscious.

I am not saying that two future eons are never going to happen. I'm just saying that the Bible doesn't say that being conscious and self aware is what that life is. It's God himself. Many people who are self aware and conscious still don't have God and therefore have no eonian life. Those who are self aware and conscious who DO believe have that life now because they have Christ (the Life) within them.

Quote from: Tom
I don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe.

The drama of the universe might not be complete after that. What if God kept creating? He's a creator by nature isn't he? Time is simply the measure of things that happen in sequence. There's no reason for me to believe (especially not scripturally) that sequential evens and their measurements must definitely come to an end.
72
Christian Life / Re: I still go to church, do you?
« Last post by Caffus on May 02, 2015, 12:27:58 AM »
I would love it...so praying for my church and all of them  :Pray:  Unfortunately, I wont be able to go this Sunday. But my prayers with be.
73
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by lastpost on May 02, 2015, 12:20:24 AM »
I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

Yes, and I also take the view that this is happening outside of earthly "time" as we know "time" - but it is happening, and has always happened, because...

I see Christ as having died and risen before the foundation of the world, and His Manifestation as Jesus was just that - a real living Manifestation showing what He is like and what He has been doing ever since His little ones came away from Perfection in what is commonly termed as "The Fall".

So, I believe these processes are happening at the death of the fleshly body, to each one individually.

For instance, when Jesus says of God: "I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is NOT the God of the DEAD but of the LIVING" - He means it exactly like He says it - in the present tense!

This is one of the most difficult things I encounter with sincere people - the confinement of the age-lasting chastisement and age-lasting life to 2 periods of time, whereas I see them as two concise descriptions of processes for each soul individually.

The one who is in Christ goes to one of the many tarrying or abiding places in His Father's House, and lives out aionion life (and finds much joy in serving and going from 'glory to glory'). [There is much more to this but suffice it to say that a spirit who truly loves GOD or Christ, wants to give Him something and seeks hither and thither for Him!].

While the wicked one (whether needing 'many stripes or some') goes to an age-lasting pruning according to the need for purification of the soul. Once the purification (cleansing) is achieved, the soul can now pass into a tarrying or abiding place in aionion life (and take up loving service towards God's Grand Consummation)[Would not any follower of Christ cry out and plead to the Good Lord for such an opportunity?]

So, from here we see an intelligent, just process of how GOD is indeed becoming all-in-all - in my opinion.


74
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Tom on May 02, 2015, 12:18:03 AM »
I've said before that I believe "eonian life," as we both understand it, is only promised to believers. What I said in my previous post was "in a sense." That's the same way I view our different perspectives on "eonian life." I can see them both in a certain sense, and, as usual, our discussion has something to do with literal vs. figurative. I just don't buy the idea that a figurative interpretation is the "definition" while the literal perspective isn't valid. I don't think unbelievers will ever "believe" because that's about faith, but I think they will eventually know God when God is all in all.

Verbatim schmerbatim...God's going to save all mankind. I think there's a bunch of stuff we get from scripture that isn't necessarily in there word for word. "Universal reconcilation" is one example.

I think life during the eons will end because scripture says there is a consummation, but life won't end because we'll have immortality. Obviously God won't end either. I don't think there are anymore eons coming after the new heaven and new earth which you seem to consider to be a possibility. I don't see the point because the grand drama of the universe will be complete, and God will have demonstrated his overwhelming power of love to be the most powerful force in the universe. Even those chosen to be his enemies in the past will then be filled with the love of God, and there will be no more evil. There's always some kind of traumatic event that ushers in a new eon. What would be the need? Everything's going to be cool after the consummation. You're just going to get to hang out on your cloud strumming your harp enjoying life without anymore headaches. Man, I'm ready to get rid of my headache today. 

I'm aware of the idea that "olam" is indefinite as if perceiving the horizon, and I think the same thing applies to "aion." But I think the thing is that they're both finite, not infinite as "eternal" indicates. I think I remember hearing that your buddy Aristotle is the guy who came up with the idea of endless ages.
75
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Seth on May 02, 2015, 12:09:05 AM »
I do admire your desire to strengthen the UR debate on the issue. I can only explain my own experience. As far as how we communicate UR to others, I have had many people over the years contact me and tell me that reading my paper on it has completely clarified the issue for them and had finally given them what they need to finally believe UR, whereas before it was muddled and confusing for them. That's been a big blessing. So, not only do I believe what I am saying, I also think it has been effective in communicating UR to many people. Whenever someone tries to test me on it and see if I can answer their questions, and I explain myself, they don't argue against it. I have had that happen alot of times too. The bottom line though is that you must go with what you believe, either way. If I believed differently then I do, then I wouldn't say it, and it wouldn't matter if it was less effective to me. I would just need to go with what I honestly believe as we all do and I respect you all on that issue.

76
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Seth on May 01, 2015, 11:32:27 PM »
I think "for an age" and "for an indefinite period of time" are close enough in meaning to me to be pretty much the same thing. It's not forever.
77
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by eaglesway on May 01, 2015, 11:29:43 PM »
Jesus used "aionian zoe" (age-during life) as opposed to "aionian kolassis"(age-during correction) and "aionian pyr"(age-during fire).

I think universalists have to be careful about how they handle this "seeming" paradox, because, just to me now, too many UR answers seem shallow to me and do not always hold up to scrutiny- appearing to be patchwork answers to ETrs and EDrs.

That's why I always go to olam as the source word, and demonstrate how in the OT it was used frequently and applied as an indefinte descriptive word defined in part by the subject it was connected to, such as distant past, distant future, the eternal life of God, the lenght of a slaves life, the duration of mountains, etc.

There is no "wrangling of words" necessary once this is proven. Many UR adherents (altho I took notice Tom in your post that you do see aionian in the light of olam) try to teach that aion always means a time with a definite end and beginning. In my opinion this is incorrect, both in terms of biblical context and translation from Heb/Aramaic/syriac to Greek. Because it is an incorrect argument, it reflects badly on UR theology and dissuades some from taking UR seriously(imo).

I am not saying I am "right", but I certainly have abundant evidence for my opinion in scriptural usage of olam. I also believe Jesus, in Matthew 25, is not saying there will be punishment "for an age"- but rather "for an appropriate indefinte period". Till every knee bows, till they have "paid the last penny", many stripes for some, few for others.

I sometimes deal with people who have studied these things intensely(from their point of view lol) and I dont like to use Aristotilian evidence because to me it is meanlingless since he was opposed to Hebrew/Christian thought. So the reason I mention it frequently is not to quibble :o). it is because I want to strengthen the arguments used by UR believers in debating the subject.
78
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Seth on May 01, 2015, 11:14:24 PM »
Tom, as you said, eonian life is given for us to know God. So NOT everyone can say they have eonian life just because they are conscious. If so, unbelievers would have eonian life without needing faith. One can only have eonian life if they believe.

I can know that because 1) we can receive eonian life today 2) we can have it within us and how someone behaves is how we can know they have it within them or not 3) some people have it and others do not 4) everyone is already literally alive

The word verbatim means exact phraseology. There is no scripture that literally says "everyone shall be saved" but you can derive that from scriptures which do not say it verbatim such as the one you quoted which does not say it verbatim.

Life during the eons will only end if God ends since God is eonian life. As the scriptures say that death will be destroyed when God us all in all, not just because they are conscience. The consummation of eons just means that certain eons will come to a conclusion. Yes eons end. That doesn't mean others do not start. As long as there are eons and God is life, man will have eonian life including now.



79
Lounge / Re: OWLAM OLAM OLAWM
« Last post by Tom on May 01, 2015, 11:04:01 PM »
I think anybody alive during the eons could be said to have "eonian life" in a sense, but I don't think that's what Christ was talking about when he used the phrase.

I think scripture does literally say, "all shall be saved" with this verse.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

I don't know how time will be perceived after the eons, but scripture says there will be a consummation of the eons. That is when life during the eons will end, but life will continue after that because there will be no more death.
80
Christian Life / Re: GETTING CLOSER TO GOD
« Last post by lastpost on May 01, 2015, 10:59:16 PM »
I believe:
 
This human race is yet very young, the Holy Spirit is at work in many ways on baby humanity.

Verities of Spirit cannot relate their fullness in earthly words, and heaven should not be framed on outer symbols of a Seer's vision.

Man knows very little of GOD, groping in dim, murky fogs of shadow...

"For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma" 1 Corinthians 13:12

So He gave HIMSELF in Jesus Christ in answer to the world's cries from its manger, and according to baby humanity's need...

"God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" John 1:18

Jesus comes as the life-giving Spring, perpetually overflowing without ceasing or ending, in such abundance that blessing is found in the flesh.

Man develops and knows GOD more than the last generational era as He reveals HIMSELF.

The vision becomes clearer, the mists dissipate, GOD becomes ever more beautiful to the perceiver who is eager to climb higher...

"Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit" 2 Corinthians 3:18

GOD is endless and so is the progression into the rich and richer, full and fuller meanings of HIM as He unfolds HIMSELF to His child.

GOD is so great that He takes the lowest thing and keeps it safe in His Great Heart, for this HE is adored and loved truly...

"...not one of them will be falling on the earth without your Father"

"GOD is the great King over all the elohim"


Man gets closer to GOD by sitting at the feet of the Master Christ, then by following Him.

Jesus Himself knew that He was the CHRIST of GOD - Jesus did not need Life from a God who was away and outside - GOD is forever fulfilling HIMSELF.

Christ cannot die and His life is the fullest most sublime LIFE which ought to be pulsating through each and every vein of the body Real - because CHRIST IS LIFE


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