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71

TESTIMONIES (testify here!) / The joy of being a forgiven sinner

« Last post by OneThing on May 24, 2013, 05:12:34 PM »

Thanks Jabcat...  this song has ultra special meaning for me - I heard it for the first time sung at a Full Gospel Businessmen's Prayer Breakfast in the Fall of 1979.

On May 16, 1979, God delivered me of alcoholism... (7 evil spirits)

One week later after my first AA meeting, an elderly gentleman approached me and told me  "I'm glad that I was an alcoholic.  I know my sin and went to God and am forgiven.  My family and friends know only my sin; they don't know their own sin so they don't have a need to go to God and they don't know the joy of being a forgiven sinner.

Several weeks later, I attended the Full Gospel Businessmen's Prayer Breakfast... the theme "To know Him and the power of His resurrection" Phil 3:10.   The opening song was He's Alive!   Oh, the joy of being a forgiven sinner.   

Psalm 40:2-5

He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

And He hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God:  many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord.

Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust, ...

Many, O Lord my God are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to usward:  they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.


Ps 103:1-5

Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless His holy name.

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies.

Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's

Tom's testimony reminded me of my own (onething aka anna274, goodreport, seekfirst, watch/pray)... and I just happen to have a very simple, but all inclusive hymn that expresses my ongoing joy of being a forgiven sinner (she who is forgiven much, loves much Luke 7:47)


HOW HAPPY EVERY CHILD OF GRACE  Wesley, 1759

How happy every child of grace,
Who knows his sins forgiven!
"This earth, " he cries, "is not my place,
I seek my place in heaven --
A country far from mortal sight,
Which yet by faith I see,
The land of rest, the saints' delight,
The heaven prepared for me."

O what a blessed hope is ours!
While here on earth we stay,
We more than taste the heavenly powers,
And antedate that day.
We feel the resurrection near,
Our life in Christ concealed,
And with His glorious presence here
Our earthen vessels filled.

O would He more of heaven bestow,
And let the vessels break,
And let our ransomed spirits go
To grasp the God we seek;
In rapturous awe on Him to gaze,
Who bought the sight for me;
And shout and wonder at His grace
Through all eternity.

Eph 1:7
We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

72

Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Should I use Philippians 2:10-11 to support universal salvation?

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 05:12:25 PM »

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The phrase "to the glory of God the Father" makes me think that this is referring to a confession unto salvation because in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus describes those who call Him Lord before being cast away from Him; I can't find anything in that scene that glorifies God.

However, the prophesy of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing makes two other appearances that I know of in Scripture, and both are in contexts of judgment, with not everybody experiencing deliverance. Romans 14:11 mentions the bowing and confessing to God, but the main subject of Romans 14 seems to be a person being judged according to whether or not he obeyed his conscience.

Then looking at Isaiah 45:23, we see the prophesy of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing, but then verse 24 says, "and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." It appears that some people are still unsaved.

Thank you for your help,
Samuel

I don't say "universal salvation." I say "universal reconciliation" and "the salvation of all mankind."

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

I think salvation refers to mankind's salvation from indignation for life eonian for believers and eventual salvation from death for unbelievers, but reconciliation refers to all on earth and in heaven even those spirit beings not subject to mortality.

73

Christian Life / Re: L Ray Smith

« Last post by jbertonbounds on May 24, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »

As for L Ray Smith having spoken the truth in love, consider this:

I once saw where he addressed this accusation.  He explained that it was an act of love on his part to be straight forward and blunt to get people's attention.  It cost him dearly to take the stand against church heresy and boldly speak truth.  He loved people and wanted them to know the truth.  If he had shied away from opposition, then how much would he have accomplished?  He was indeed blunt and to the point, and often came across as rude toward his adversaries.  That was not his intention.  His bluntness and straightforwardness were very much intentional in order to reach people because of his love for them and God.  I would never say that he did not speak the truth in love.


Consider how Jesus sometimes addressed his adversaries:

Speaking to the Pharisees he said:
John 8:44 [ESV]
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  (I am quite sure that folks would accuse him of not speaking the truth in love here.)

Matthew 21:12-13 [ESV]
¹² And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. ¹³ He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you make it a den of robbers."  (Let me put it this way: If I had done anything of that sort growing up, my mom would have spanked me good for behaving in this manner! )

74

Welcome Central / Re: Hi folks.

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:58:12 PM »

PS: They don't even like my images from my pc for an avatar.

Same thing happened to me. I have tried resizing the photo and changing dpi but no luck.

Try again, bro. I just reduced an image 50%, and it worked.

75

Judgement and Punishment / Re: Fear and doubts

« Last post by mplsfitter539 on May 24, 2013, 04:56:11 PM »

Fear.

Intimidation.

Doubt.

But be free of it - Hell is a 404.

Dennis,
I like your 404 reference and because I am sure there are some here who don't understand I am posting the definition of it here.

The 404 or Not Found error message is a HTTP standard response code indicating that the client was able to communicate with the server, but the server could not find what was requested.

The web site hosting server will typically generate a "404 Not Found" web page when a user attempts to follow a broken or dead link; hence the 404 error is one of the most recognizable errors users can find on the web.[1]

A 404 error should not be confused with "server not found" or similar errors, in which a connection to the destination server could not be made at all. A 404 error indicates that the requested resource may be available again in the future; however, the fact does not guarantee the same content.

76

Welcome Central / Re: Hi folks.

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:56:06 PM »

PS: They don't even like my images from my pc for an avatar.

Your file size may be too large, and that is why I am happy to have a fairly low-resolution digital camera, as well as my 7.2 megapixel Sony.  Also, make sure the image you want to upload is the right file type.

You were right, bro. I just reduced an image 50% that I had no problem with anywhere else, and it worked.

77

Welcome Central / Re: Hi folks.

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:46:16 PM »

PS: They don't even like my images from my pc for an avatar.

Your file size may be too large, and that is why I am happy to have a fairly low-resolution digital camera, as well as my 7.2 megapixel Sony.  Also, make sure the image you want to upload is the right file type.

Thanks, but I don't think that's the problem. I tried a couple of small images in both png and jpg formats. I was just successful at attaching some images to a message. So I guess I'll just do it that way. I'm still kind of curious about the avatar though.

78

Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: The Greek Word Aion

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:29:57 PM »

"And these shall go away into everlasting[G166 Aionios] punishment; but the righteous into life eternal[G166 Aionios]" Matthew 25:46.

"Who shall be punished with everlasting[G166 Aionios] destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" 2Thessalonians 1:9.

The english word everlasting or eternal in Matt.25:46 and 2Thess 1:9 is translated for the Greek word aion. Aionios is the adjective form of the word Aion. Here is the definition of aion from Strongs Greek Concordance and the Blueletter Bible Lexicon. Aion[G165]:
1) forever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Wait a minute. Are they saying this little four letter Greek word has all these meanings? Two things need to be noted here:
1. Those lexicons have aion meaning both age and eternal. How can a word be it's own antonym? In other words, how can aion mean both age and eternal when age and eternal have opposite meanings? That's against the laws of grammer.
2. How can aion mean world, age, and eternity when the Greeks have specific words for those english words? Case in point, The Greek word for world is Kosmos[G2889] not aion. The Greek word for eternity is Aidios[G126] not aion. And the Greek word for age is aion[G165]. If the writers wanted to convey the idea of forever in Matthew 25:46 and 2Thessalonians 1:9, they would have used the Greek word aidios[G126].
So aion always means age never eternal. A better translation of aion would be eon or the alternate dictionary spelling aeon, because eon has an adjective form where as age does not. For instance, the adjective form of the Greek word aion[G165] is aionios[G166], likewise, the adjective form of the english word eon is eonian. Also, get a good dictionary that traces the orgin of words and look up the english words eternal and eon. You will find eternal is traced back to latin, and you will find eon, which means age or a period of time is traced back to the Greek word aion. The Bible of course was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, not Latin.
And one other point: Aion and the alternate dictionary spelling of eon(aeon) almost spell the same, aion-aeon. That's because many of the letters of the Greek aphabet are the same as the letters of the  English alphabet.
But believers in eternal torment object to this. They say that if aion and it's adjective form aionios mean age or eon, then not only does the punishment of the unbelievers come to an end but also the eternal/aionios life of the believers must come to an end as well, since the same word aionios is used to describe the punishment and life of both groups. I will address that objection in my next post. Blessings.

I refer to Strong's numbers once in awhile out of curiosity, but I think his reference material is bias to church doctrine. I prefer the Concordant Literal New Testament and Keyword Concordance.  http://concordant.org/online/index.html  I agree with most of what you say, bro, but I think "aidios" should be translated "imperceptible" like in the Concordant Version. Their concordance says "aidion UN-PERCEIVED imperceptible." I'm attaching a few files showing a good explanation of why "aidios" should be "imperceptible."

79

Christian Life / Re: L Ray Smith

« Last post by mplsfitter539 on May 24, 2013, 04:19:10 PM »

L. Ray Smith was seriously ill for the last couple years of his life. He died May 24th 2012. He was right about a lot of things which churchianity disagreed with (Mostly Hell) and was wrong on some things like all of us are. Some ET churches, pastors, and websites are gloating that he will be burning in hell for his heresies, but we know the last (in the worlds eyes)shall be first, and the first (in the worlds eyes)shall be last. Like Martin Zender and Gary Amirault he wasn't afraid to speak the truth. Unlike the others, he sometimes had trouble speaking it in love, which further incensed the status quo.

Yeah, I knew he had prostate cancer, but I didn't know he died. I guess that's because I quit going to his site because of what you said about him having a hard time speaking the truth in love. Thanks for the info.

I checked out L. Ray Smith a while back and like both of you have confirmed I had to move away from him because speaking the truth in love has become more important. knowing it myself and being able to convey the truth in love is far more rewarding than hurting people even if you are speaking the truth. I still get caught up in heated debates on truth vs church dogma. As I have said before until I learn humility it is best if I can keep my thoughts/knowledge of the truth fresh/renewed daily and share only to those who are seeking the truth. Many professing "Christians" are not seeking the truth and resist hearing it. People I love dearly believe that I am lost and going to the place of fire and brimstone for all eternity because I tried to open their eyes and God had not called them yet. Until they are called they are not ready yet. God is the only one who has the ointment for the eyes of the unseeing/blind. Peace brothers and sisters.

In Christ,
DuWayne

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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Having a wobble about age-during life

« Last post by TomH on May 24, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »

One of the things I understand about UR is that there was a mistranslation of Greek to English and we ended up with the word eternal in relation to torment. 

I have just been on a short study on John's gospel.   There are many times when the word eternal is used, but when I look at the verse in the YLT it is translated as "age-during".

So, John 3: 16  is age-during life (which I think I asked questions about before), but there are others, including in Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane:

[indent]NIV: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." [/indent]

[indent]YLT: Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,
2 according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during;
3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;  [/indent]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017&version=NIV;NRSVA;YLT

There is also the passage in 1 John 5:  "Our testimony is this: God has given us eternal life and this life has its source in His Son ...."

The concept of the eternal nature of life in God is so ingrained, so fundamental.

Do we lose something of this by removing eternal from this passages?

Thanks,

Mike

No, brother, we don't lose anything. We will be immortalized meaning we will have life without death. We are only programmed to think about eternity due to incorrect translation.

Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are incorrect translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I've learned the Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.

Scripture is concerned with the eons, but the eons have a consummation. Death is the last enemy to be abolished before the consummation of the eons. So there will be unending life when we are vivified.

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

Folks should say "immortality," "eonian life," or "life eonian" (zoen aionion), which is what we're promised, instead of "eternal life," but immortality won't come until Christ returns for believers, who will have "life eonian," and for unbelievers, who will not have "life eonian," at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. Christ alone has immortality now.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory." (1 Corinthians 15:53,54)

I suggest you read the Concordant Version rather than Young's Literal Translation for a more accurate translation of "aionion" as "eonian" rather than "age-during."

Another word translated as "eternal" by the King James Version is "aidios" (Romans 1:20; Jude 1:6), but the Concordant Version translates it "imperceptible."

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Those are some excellent points you make TomH. Read my thread "The Greek Word Aion" in this forum. I bring up the same points you are making. Thanks for writing this informative and Biblically sound post. Blessings to you.

God bless you too, brother. I'm going to read your post right now.