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61
Quote
So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.

I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require  a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.

Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.

Everything is by God's choice.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I often find myself wanting to answer questions posed by staunch, challenging non-believers.. apologetics, I guess.. defense.. I've heard the accusation like God craved blood, or (gasp!) is bloodthirsty/cruel.. but it was the other so called 'gods' or ancient 'priests' of strange religions, who were like that.. but not in some non-believers view..

But which we know is not true of the heavenly Father, who "is love".. We can be assured, I believe, of two things, He is Perfect, and His motives are always love.. truth, yes, and purity/perfection/holiness/truth, but He IS love.. So requiring a sacrifice was/is an act of love, and as we know, absolutely not of any sort of cruelty, or anything - less than love..
                      :banana:
62
Lounge / Stephen e Jones and God's Kingdom Ministries
« Last post by Farlsborough on August 30, 2014, 09:30:53 PM »
Does anyone have any experience meeting or hearing this guy? It's not always easy over the web to discern; sometimes lots of stuff looks good, but on a site with so much material, I may stumble across something very suspect!

He has some great stuff about the Old Testament feasts, the kingdom, free will etc. He also acknowledges universal restoration, in fact many of the statements of faith are similar to what I have learnt here.

However, some of the current day prophecy stuff seems a bit "wiggy"; the latest update is about some chap who is prophesying that 2014 is the "year of God's kingdom" or something... This is an instant red flag to me! Funny how prophesies are always about now or a very nearby time, isn't it?! Sounds a bit Millerite. Very Millerite, actually.

What I'm particularly interested in is some of the stuff in his talks about worldly movements of the ancient Hebrews (supposedly "Iberia" is from "Eberia/Heberia" - land of the Hebrews) but when searching for evidence in support of this, all I get is crazy conspiracy theory sites  :(

Any thoughts much appreciated.
 
63
Quote
So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.

I agree. I think God structured his Law so that creating man new through the forgiveness of sin would require  a blood sacrifice, so that in Christ dying would show the love of the Father, and create a way to be joined to him by the Firstborn. I don't take that to mean the God is.subservient to his Law but that his Law is a reflection of himself.

Jesus Christ forgave sin in his ministry, but a death was required by the Law to create a new man under the resurrected Spirit, the New Covenant.

Everything is by God's choice.
64
Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen
 

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

 :iagree:

There is definitely a way to understand UR that personally believe missed the whole point of what Jesus came to save us from.
65
Communication is a wonderful thing.   :laugh:
66
Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen
 

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.

Yes, and for anyone to say that God reconciled all to himself in his Son on the cross can also be misleading, if that is all that is shared. And that is the purpose of discussing these things on this board, I would think, because I know when I first shared what I believed I think it was assumed that I did not believe that belief, repentance, and faith in Yeshua was necessary, since 'he did it all', which is a false doctrine.

Perhaps it could be a good thing, for clarification, as you mentioned, for some of these things to be shared. Anyone would quickly be able to tell whether someone ends up advocating those false things, and then those could be dealt with. I just hope we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater over semantics.
67
Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
Just so I may have it clear from the moderators:

Is someone discouraged, or not allowed, to share the victory of Yeshua for all if he or she believes that Yeshua is the savior or all, meaning that all have been saved or delivered from what the first Adam brought into the world, but still need to be saved experientially by belief in Yeshua, which Paul referred to as 'especially of believers?

Sort of the same as when Paul wrote that elders who preside in an ideal way were worthy of double honor, which means that all of them were included in this double honor, but among them was another group of those especially due this honor, those who presided with much toiling and labor in the word and teaching. All included, yet a distinction among them.

The Eastern church, which has always held to this inclusive teaching, does not teach the implications that Carlton Pearson appears to hold to. There is still sin in our members, whether one is a believer or not. Sin still does exist, although inactivated for those who live by His faith and not by works of law. I bring this particular point up because of what I read in your quote.

If you could please clarify so that unwanted posts do not continue to appear.

Shalom,

Ronen
 

I think (for me) to try to answer every nuance of the possible discussion would be way beyond what I'll try to provide as a very simple answer.  I think the basic clarification is the belief and stance that Christ died for all, but not all are as yet in the faith.  Many are still lost, need to realize they need the Savior, and need to hear "believe and confess and you will be saved".  As with many things, to simply say "all are already saved" can be misleading, and leave out much of the gospel.  So often clarification is needed if not initially provided - i.e., that TM isn't a Unitarian Universalist site "all roads/believe what you will because Jesus (or "the Divine" etc.) has already taken care of it, etc.".  Not that that's what anyone typically says here, or that the OP seemed to be suggesting, but again, perception, message, possible interpretations one might glean - therefor the clarification.  I wrote this quickly so I hope it makes sense and helps.  James.
68
I believe in a two fold, inner to outward salvation. The inner salvation is.in regard to the carnal.mind, and the outer is.in regard to the works which were of the carnal mind.
69
As a follow up to my post above, here is a quote concerning the view I believe Charlie, and myself, and apparently some others here, hold to, at least in essence:

However, the word "salvation" is used in the Scripture with two different meanings.

"In the preaching of the Apostles, especially worthy of attention is the fact that they precisely teach us to distinguish between the truth of the salvation of mankind as a whole, which has already been accomplished, and another truth the necessity for a personal reception and assimilation of the gift of salvation on the part of each of the faithful, and the fact that this latter salvation depends upon each one himself. Ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, writes the Apostle Paul (Eph. 2:8); but he also teaches, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).[14]

"Our objective salvation is realized only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whereas our personal or subjective salvation, which in the language of the New Testament is called "righteousness", "holiness", or "salvation" (in the narrow sense), is realized as a continuance of this objective salvation, with our personal energy or activity acting in co-operation with Divine Energy or Grace."[15]


http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm
70
Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/

 :iagree:
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