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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:35:56 AM »
Lol .. Bubbles.  :gimmefive:
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 09:32:33 AM »
I prefer to say, "WHATEVER BUBBLE YOU ARE IN IT IS FLOATING WITHIN THE GREATEST BUBBLE OF ALL- GOD"S LOVE, IF THE BUBBLE YOU ARE IN POPS, POPS WILL CATCH YOU, UR GONNA BE ALL RITE!    ;o)
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 09:27:11 AM »
Well, this is a bit out there but here goes LOL.... Can God make a bubble inside another bubble inside another bubble? Which bubble are you in?

My things is this. When our theology steps on someone who is speaking of being in the smallest bubble- a reality within realities created by God for our edification- we do a diservice to our brothers and sisters who are dealing with, or being dealt with, within that experience.

I can stand back all day saying "THERE" IS ONLY ONE BIG BUBBLE", but this is only partially tru, by God's design, who has me engaged in a smaller bubble of His own creation, for me, not you(generic)- the theologian. The scriptures addres all of theses differring levels as wheels within wheels and at any given point in time our theoretical approach may not be real for the person the scripture is speaking to in micrcosm rather than macrocosm.

Therefore, I dont see that we serve one another well when we preclude certain simple statements of scripture. They are meant for the microcosm. They do not negate the macro, but neither does the macro negate them. God has designed it this way to shave our pride and to always keep us off balance as we try to put bubbles in boxes and stack em on a shelf :o)
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Who was reconciled?
« Last post by eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 09:17:44 AM »
"Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?"

The world would be my answer. HE is reconciling, now we who consider ourselves believers, have a tendency to cause division between the "them and us" but God is reconciling the world, and that imo and I believe, is ALL the world. He did the creating and He will do and is reconciling His creation speaking of the humanity He created. :2c:

If we understand the love of God, it is not about them and us,regardless of our position on this question. It is about Him and the salvation of all, for He loves all. Reconciling? There is no need if all are already reconciled. The reconciliation of all is a fact. We all agree on that. We are only discussing how the term and the idea of "being saved/delivered/made whole/restored" fits being reconciled in the present reality, an age in which all are not "in" the reconciliation that has been provided for them, and we as ambassadores/representaives of the kingdom of God calling them in, gathering them into our glorious liberty as children of God sharing the good news that all have been redeemed.

Each in his own order, as God has ordained.

I find it easy to see that the Holy Spirit speaks in the long view, of the ages fulfilled "all are reconciled"- and in the short view as well "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ." In the present view(as James and I see it) there is reconciling to be done. :o)

I see no need for these two views to be mutually exclusive. :o)
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:08:46 AM »
That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.

Just to be clear, I know you are not challenging the idea that God is sovereign. We both agree on that, just in different ways.  :thumbsup:

Does God step back and allow a certain amount of freedom? That's the question. I don't know what "stepping back" means though. Does that mean he doesn't know what you are going to do before you do it, even as he knows the very count of hairs on our heads?
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 09:05:35 AM »
That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by Seth on July 26, 2014, 08:49:06 AM »

I do not see it at all in so blanket a way that you do, and I do not see the authroity in that verse for an idea opposing discipleship and stewardship.

Nor do I, but I don't see discipleship and stewardship opposing the Romans 8:29 process either.

Quote
What about the parable of the talents? What kind of an exercise in futility would that exhortation be in the scenario you are expressing :o) There are too many verses being ignored in this view, so I don't agree with it. It requires to much wrestling with clear verses to invalidate what they teach and exhort for me to be comfortable with it.

I am happy to address any scripture. I don't believe I am ignoring any of them, but my explanation is here: Exhortations are there for God to demonstrate his will through man. God exhorted to Pharoah, let my people go. So the question the church was asking was, if Israel was not believing, just how Pharoah was disobeying, why does God punish. For, who resists his will?

The answer, is that God does so to demonstrate things. He exhorted Pharoah to let his people go in order to demonstrate his wrath and make his power known through Pharoah's disobedience. This is Paul's reasoning here. And he is applying it to Israel to answer the objection: If God exhorts, but his will cannot be resisted, how can he hold anyone accountable? Answer: to demonstrate.

The whole question of accountability in the face of God's sovereignty, Paul is addressing that question right there in Romans 9, specifically.



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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 08:42:25 AM »
Of course I understand all of what you are saying. There are hundreds of verses on the matter. You are applying it in a way I do not see. God is not controlling our every choice in my opinion. He intervenes routinely in our lives, of course. He intervenes in history and exalts and abases whom He wills for His own inscrutable reasons, as Paul said. Somehow you see this as a doctrinal clarity that God never gives us any parameters of freedom with which to teach us and mature us as sons/stewards/disciples.

I do not see it at all in so blanket a way that you do, and I do not see the authroity in that verse for an idea opposing discipleship and stewardship.

What about the parable of the talents? What kind of an exercise in futility would that exhortation be in the scenario you are expressing :o)

There are too many verses being ignored in this view, so I don't agree with it. It requires to much wrestling with clear verses to invalidate what they teach and exhort for me to be comfortable with it.

I believe God is intimately involved in all our choices good and ill. And I also believe He gives us some rope in order to teach us. To me it is simple and obvious- at least at the present time ;o)
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For the life f me I can't see how anyone could miss the obvious implication. Wasnt Sodom punished? There punishment will be regarded as less severe than that city of which He speaks in the Day.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: God's Will
« Last post by Seth on July 26, 2014, 08:30:31 AM »
Quote
Some will say, "God controled your unrighteous use of your gifts, and God controlled the righteous use another disciple exercized. I am not convinced of this, because the accountability for failure would be baseless and the reward for overcoming a play on words with no substance.

Paul addressed this in Romans 9:

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


It reminds me of how Jesus exhorted his Jewish brothers according to the flesh to believe in him. But God blinded them and then they killed him. Why the exhortation if God blinded them? Why would the church even bother to preach to the synagogues if it was known that God was blinding Israel to bring the Gentiles in? If they believed, then Jesus would not have been able to be murdered for their sins.

I believe it is because God is demonstrating something as he says in the passage above. I believe the church preached to Israel even though they were sovereignly blinded by God in order to show the character of Christ in the rejection.
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