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Word Studies / Re: The Holy Spirit is also an angel.
« Last post by Tom on December 18, 2014, 09:20:46 PM »
You said, "Wind= angel of the Lord=HS

What we call HS is holy breath (effect) or holy wind in Hebrew.
So.... HS is also an angel"

"Holy spirit" manifested as a blast of "wind" is in the so called New Testament too, brother, and any "angel" or "messenger" is a creature. The only reason the Trinity came up is because it is a popular personification of "holy spirit." I agree with you when you say, "Not all messengers are the same." There are human "messengers" and celestial "messengers." That's why it's better to translate the Greek "aggelos" as "messenger" rather than "angel." I was simply saying that I don't think "holy spirit" is any kind of "messenger" because I think it is the power of God.   
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Justification, repentance, salvation?
« Last post by Seth on December 18, 2014, 09:18:38 PM »
Quote from: bushy
No. 1 explains it better for me. No. 2 leaves it up to us to do something about our need instead of understanding that it has been done for us. Faith is simply believing the truth of what was done for us and that belief will result in our being healed and made whole.

Doesn't faith result in being healed because the Holy Spirit is given to those who have faith? There are many scriptures in the NT that suggest to me that faith alone is not what heals us, but the Spirit given to believers who are told, not only to have the Spirit, but also to walk by the Spirit and thus be healed from the damaging corruption of their former walk.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Justification, repentance, salvation?
« Last post by bushy on December 18, 2014, 09:15:00 PM »
I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

No. 1 explains it better for me. No. 2 leaves it up to us to do something about our need instead of understanding that it has been done for us. Faith is simply believing the truth of what was done for us and that belief will result in our being healed and made whole. It makes a huge difference when we stop looking to ourselves or others and whether we have done the right things and jumped through all the hoops and just start seeing what Jesus did for us. And what he did for us he did for everyone else too.


Acts 16:29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

All this jailer needed was to know what the truth is and be convinced of its truth and of course then he would believe. I think he knew what the truth was because of the earthquake and the jail falling down and thought he needed to do something to be saved just like we automatically are programed to think. Repenting is just changing our mind which is the same as believing the truth instead of a lie.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Faith is what makes the difference but it doesn't change the truth. It's confusing to me to be concerned about faith and whether or not I or anyone else has enough faith to be saved. Much easier for me to know what Jesus did for me he did for all and that he is the author and finisher of our faith. I can relax knowing that truth.




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Bible Threatenings Explained / Re: Gnashing of teeth does not suggest torture
« Last post by Seth on December 18, 2014, 09:13:26 PM »
 :iagree:
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Bible Threatenings Explained / Re: Gnashing of teeth does not suggest torture
« Last post by rosered on December 18, 2014, 09:12:04 PM »
 
 I agree Seth


Acts 7
 
 54Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;…
 
 also means  enraged angry and frustration of   failure
 
 I believe     many "become angry  when they have no control  "    over   what they believe they do have control over
 power  tripping
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Christian Life / Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Last post by WhiteWings on December 18, 2014, 09:05:47 PM »
Idiom #67 - Foot

Foot is a euphemism for male genitals

Feet = regel: A feminine noun meaning a foot. It is the common word for a literal foot, human or animal. It is used figuratively, but has acquired many other uses. ... The phrase 'me raglehem' refers to urine, water of their privates (2Ki 18:27).

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/8183/how-does-the-act-of-foot-washing-lead-to-the-act-of-sexual-intercourse

http://www.keithhunt.com/Sex1.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2002/02/When-Foot-Means-Something-Else-Euphemisms-In-The-Bible.aspx

http://www.christianpost.com/news/what-the-bible-doesnt-say-about-sex-48947/

http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/01/24/weird-ot-euphemisms-uncovering-the-feet/
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: The role of believers
« Last post by Tom on December 18, 2014, 09:03:40 PM »
Hi guys and girls! A lot of new threads from me recently, thanks for your replies. I have a long commute at the moment, so get to listen to a lot of sermons and do a lot of thinking, hence a lot of questions cropping up!

What I am thinking about at the moment is the role of believers. I have recently been speaking to a lot of people who hold a "reformed theology", and a theology of "all things redeemed". I find it odd that they should be so excited about "all of life redeemed", "all the kosmos redeemed", "all creation redeemed" etc. whilst not subscribing to UR; presumably they are looking forward to a perfected and redeemed universe which nevertheless is to be enjoyed by the small number of people who are chosen to escape eternal hellfire?!

Anyway, it got me thinking. I like what their theology spurs them on to - to try to bring all of life into harmony with God's will, God's law... to think about what it means to trade, to play, to educate, to invest, to produce and so on in a way which honours God. It's called the cultural mandate - the idea that the developments of humanity, although tainted by sin, can and will be redeemed and presumably "brought into the city" in some way at the conclusion of all things.

Thinking from a UR perspective though, we often seem to see "the kingdom", or the next age or whatever, as a time when those who truly follow Christ are unveiled, and when He returns to rule having "built an army" of overseers and judges in the body of Christ. The people of God then adjudicate, guide and serve the nations (which is sometimes "fiery" - ruling with a rod of iron!) until every knee bows and Christ can pass the kingdom to the Father, who will be all in all.

Now, I realise that there are no easy, obvious or straightforward answers, but I'd like to know what you all think about what the implications are for us who profess to be believers? I see it as something of a spectrum:

1) Similar to the reformed thinkers, only with a universal conclusion: it is our job as "the chosen" to, starting now, try to influence culture, promote ways of living that honour God etc. and generally try to steer human civilisation towards a direction that could forseeably last (in some way) into the next age. This IS how God is going to establish the kingdom.

2) Try to do similar to above, but on the understanding that there is going to be a great and fiery dissolution, that that whilst we may make some inroads, most of this work will come after Jesus' return, when believers will have received their glorified bodies. Most of what is achieved in this life is likely to be destroyed.

3) Separate ourselves, engage minimally in culture and let the pagans take care of themselves. Our job is to secure our own calling and salvation, and study the Word, with the aim of "winning the race" and being fit to receive our roles as servants and judges in the next age. Nothing significant from this world will last. The job of redeeming creation is almost all to be done in the next age, and what we expect is for this world to be at crisis point when He returns.


...and everything in between!

I can think of problems with each of them, and good points (and scriptural support) for all of them. I'd love to know whereabouts the forum members here fall on this  :Chinscratch:

I think "the role of believers" is simply "love your associate" (Leviticus 19:18; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14). To do that well I think we should be ready to explain the source of love that flows through us to our associates by sharing the truth of the word of God with them. God chose believers before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4), but God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10). I think it's a good idea to know about the latest scientific evidence of God, like DNA, to defend the faith against atheists, and we should know about how the intentional mistranslation of scripture is used to support the deception of orthodox doctrine so we can help overcome the irrational fear of torture in fire forever and console those who have lost unbelieving family and friends with no expectation of seeing them again. I think it's all about simply being a willing channel of God's love.
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Word Studies / Re: The 5 branches.
« Last post by rosered on December 18, 2014, 08:52:49 PM »
 :goodpost:
 
   Jesus  Christ the name and   righteous Branch  whom was a servant and King 

Acts 4 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
 
  Romans 3 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:


 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


 29 Or is God the God of Jews only?

 Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also


, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.


 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
 
  I love it that God made sure though faith  in the works of the law and   in Jesus Christ  everyone gets a fair    shake  :HeartThrob:
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Bible Threatenings Explained / Gnashing of teeth does not suggest torture
« Last post by Seth on December 18, 2014, 08:46:43 PM »
This might be a topic having already been discussed but, the famous phrase "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" has usually been understood to mean that there is a "conscious literal torment" in literal fire. I always assumed the same when I was in ET. But when Christ uses the phrase "gnashing of teeth" I submit that it does not suggest a gritting of teeth due to physical pain or torture. Rather, the term is a figure of speech meaning to be mocking, or to be set against. Here are more examples from the OT:

Psalm 35
16 Like the ungodly they maliciously mocked; they gnashed their teeth at me.

Job 16:9
God assails me and tears me in his anger and gnashes his teeth at me; my opponent fastens on me his piercing eyes.

Lamentations 2
16 All your enemies open their mouths wide against you; they scoff and gnash their teeth and say, "We have swallowed her up. This is the day we have waited for; we have lived to see it."


In Christ's parables, he says that there shall be "gnashing of teeth" in the "outer darkness." But, Christ himself also says that "men love the darkness" and they do not come into the light, for fear that their wicked works will be exposed. I believe that when anyone is cut off from the blessings of Life (the Spirit) "gnashing of teeth" is an expression for the way that the carnal man is set against God in his nature. I believe that the Prodigal Son gnashed his teeth against God's way for a while in his own actions, his sin, not literally because he was being tortured.

Paul warned "God will not be mocked." Another way of saying that is that God will not allow people to gnash their teeth at him by trodding under foot the son of God through willful sinning. I believe that God's method to deal with that, is to allow the sin to naturally bring them to a low place and thus to lead them to repentance.
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Word Studies / Re: The Holy Spirit is also an angel.
« Last post by WhiteWings on December 18, 2014, 08:29:34 PM »
You make a lot of assumptions Tom.
I didn't write or mean anything trinity related because I don't believe in a trinity.
Neither did I write it's a creature.
Neither did I write HS is literally the wind. You may click the link to get a better understanding.
Not all messengers are the same. Like all cows are animals, but not all animals are cows.

I think wind in many cases being symbolic for HS is well established in the OT. And in the NT the HS is the messenger between groom and bride.
That Psalms is in rhyme format is also well accepted. Ps 35:5 is no exception.

Wind is certainly associated with life. Just check Gen 6:17

So, I stick to my  :2c:
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