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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by lostnbroken on September 21, 2014, 06:56:09 PM »
i understadn the scriptures you sited yet it appears i was or became entangled into the law of sin and death again through willfully sinning...i fully believe an know that jesus die don the cross for all sins but when i chose sin over him-even if it was not conscientious for some of them-i did not realize i had turned back to my own attempts at securing my salvation instead of simply trusting in him from the beginning..if god is the one who grants repentance an did have been praying of him to help me an did have been doing this for some time an he has yet to move in my heart then his spirit has not been there...i sinned many times an felt no conviction for doing them...how do you discern guilt from true conviction? i am not sure why or how i was "awakened to my spiritual state except the hs does convict not only of sin but also of judgment....it was not until i was made to realize-either through  coming out of the denial i was in or he perhaps did touch me in that moment, did i even know that some of the things i had done were very wrong...many other things i had done that i knew were sins i had asked for forgiveness either before i did them[very wrong] or right afterwards and yet did not stop them...when this happened i felt overwhelming grief and was totally crushed for what i had done and i began right away praying for him to please forgive me , to renew a right spirit in me and to change my heart and mind..i had not stopped doing this an din the very beginning i fully expected in faith that he would do just that-i was looking for a profound transformation and dramatic experience which would tell me i was indeed forgiven and accepted ...nothing happened...i was also trying to do in my flesh also  without realizing that he wills us to do what is right...i had not fully grasped the concept  until now...but if he is not working in my heart and willing me to do what is right and i am unable to feel him or hear from him, i do not know what the next step can be  without him...i can read many scriptures and i can pray and even praise him fo rall thats good, but unless he comes to change me and ot help me, then i see why hebrews says it is impossible to bring someone back to repentance and lay a foundation again for starting over...only he can make it possible and he has not for now...because he has not moved in my heart to repent  after all  of this time and i have prayed sought [like esau, with many tears] to find him, i am in this place of "limbo" waiting on him...in the meantime i am tormented day and night and having nightmares of judgment and th elof and though i get frightened by them..other times i feel numb-it have to maintain a numbness for my family's sake because when i give over to the fear it causes me to lose it...badly...if the bleief in this eventual reconciliation is true that is awesome but it means facing much torment and severe pain for ages until then...why would it take that long to accomplish what he can do in moments? why must it be prolonged? i understand the penality of crossing the line with him and having to face those dreaded consequences...i want to warn others to not go down this road..there is no way back once you push him away and offend his spirit of grace...what i posted above about the difference for those who receive "kolasis??] punishment is very different for apostates who receive timoria? of extreme wrath and i have heard if this happens then even the apostate cannot be saved even if the others can be...if you can help me to see beyond this and it can help...i often think about the prodigal son who fell away when he deliberately left the father to pursue a life of sin but eventually came to his senses and returned...when jesus taught this parable, the son was the one who chose to return [no hint that god caused him to repent] and even after he had done so much wrong and was dead was able to be restored...why tell such a parable and then for all of the apostles to teach if a child of god turns away  into a life of deliberate sin but eventually comes to their sense and seeks to return, it is now impossible???paul, peter, james and john all seem to make this very clear....lastly if i had indeed committed blasphemy  because fo the condition of my heart, then it would explain why he left and is still gone and why he will not restore me now...i need someone to help me break all of this down and help me to see if it were simply a matter of trusting again or having faith, i have been doing this...i need "concise" help in sorting through all of this...i have faith an dbeliev his word, but all of his word and unless he moves in my heart to change, nothing else i can do will make any difference...
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by Tom on September 21, 2014, 06:21:03 PM »
"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by Tom on September 21, 2014, 04:12:21 PM »
timoria- from hebrews makes it clear that i have no hope at all...i chose to sin instead fo following jesus and this word is clear that there is a punishment without any mercy of god who hates those of us who fall into this category....he really does hate me .....i have tried ot fin dmercy and find none at all...

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

Stop believing Satan's lie!

God doesn't hate you!

God loves you so much that he sacrificed his only-begotten son who was sinless to die for you that you would be saved from sin and even death.

You are dwelling on guilt because you misunderstand the purpose of sin and are doubting the power of God. The power of God roused Jesus Christ from the dead! And Jesus Christ was not only resurrected but immortalized! The same thing will happen to you someday.

Everything comes from God for an ultimate purpose including sin because it is through our sin that we realize that we need God to save us from it. Just believe in the power of God to save you from sin, and you will have peace. If you believe Satan that you are "lost and broken" forever because God can't save you from your sin, then you will continue to anguish. All you have to do is believe God.

Satan is controlled by God. Just read the book of Job to see that.

God created evil.

"Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make all these things." (Isiah 45:7).

We experience evil to humble us.

"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." (Ecclesiastes 1:13).

Satan is God's chief messenger of evil, and he is a liar (John 8:44). Don't believe his lie that you are "lost and broken" because you were saved when Christ died on the cross for you. Stop suffering for your sin because you have been justified.

"Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24).

You have been saved by the grace of God that is a free gift not because you're worthy but because God loves you.

"God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Just believe God!

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil002.html
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FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #9

For anyone who might be interested.

Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a link to a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html   

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/

THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
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Lounge / Re: Deu 4:24 for Jehovah thy God is a fire consuming--a zealous God.
« Last post by micah7:9 on September 21, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »
Micah..this is in reply to your post #106....  I think there is a real danger for the saints to be corrupted through flatteries........

   that is the very thing I have mentioned when I spoke of 'but we are the elect"..and all you lowlifes are going to burn in hell forever

  ..or even in UR..burn in LOF ...........Israel was corrupted through flatteries..as being  a people for special possession..by God

   spiritual pride arrogance is a corruption through flattery[as if anyone had a reason to boast..since all have been concluded in sin]

   Satan will sift..attempt to draw out..any propensity of pride,arrogance or conceit in us......

   

"Micah..this is in reply to your post #106..." ? :sigh:? :sigh:
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Jabcat says... (sorry, have not quite worked out how to quote someone's post when there are several quotes in there )...Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above.  I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word).  So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law.  So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).
[/quote]

I understand your angle and like it!  :winkgrin:
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by lostnbroken on September 21, 2014, 10:49:55 AM »
timoria- from hebrews makes it clear that i have no hope at all...i chose to sin instead fo following jesus and this word is clear that there is a punishment without any mercy of god who hates those of us who fall into this category....he really does hate me .....i have tried ot fin dmercy and find none at all...
48
I go with #2 with the added comment that God can forgive at any time but the requirements for blood are for the Law specifically.

Agree on #2.

As for the requirement of blood, I could see how that might be the case - with Jesus fulfilling it.
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So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."

His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..

At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.

 :thumbsup:

May we keep marching!

 :thumbsup:




Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.

The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".

I appreciate your respect for the cross.  I believe there are things miraculous about it.   I do believe "it is finished" has a (maybe not THE, but at least A) meaning of "paid in full", as in a business transaction of that day.  I.e., Law fulfilled, price paid. 

Although I agree in principle with much of it, I view the conclusions you come up with about the scriptures/letter/Spirit from a bit of a different angle than you describe above.  I believe this reference primarily means the letter of the Law, not the scriptures in general (written Word).  So I see this saying, Jesus is Spirit and we are to worship in spirit and truth - He has fulfilled the Law, is our Savior and Redeemer, so we no longer operate according to, are under, or teach, the Law.  So our relationship with Him now is based on the new covenant, grace and the work of the cross, not works of the Law (Spirit not letter [Law]).
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Jabcat said "there's more power involved and more of the miraculous accomplished at the cross than just an example provided."

Yes to this. So much accomplished..."...if all that Jesus accomplished was written down, the whole world could not contain the books.."

His cross is the fulcrum our struggles are designed to continually swing us towards. Every path in the bible begins with the cross and every path leads there. All the verses of promise and blessing stem from it, while those of judgement and wrath push us toward it..

To lead us to his cross is the bible's primary job..All of the other uses of scripture, although valid,  are subsidiary, subservient and orientated to this task..

At the cross is our freedom, our peace and our rest.

The cross is the real New Testament; "This cup is the new testament...."(Luke 22:20).

Sometimes, to our detriment, we label and treat the latter 27 books of the bible as if they were the New Testament, when they are not.

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new testament--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The New Testament is not something written. It is an act of pure love, and is based on the promises of God and his ability (not ours) to fulfill them.

The writers of those 27 books are divinely inspired to describe the actual New Testament for us, and they point to it for us, but their words are not an addendum of laws and regulations to it. There is no addendum to the cross: "It is finished".

A few people arrive at the cross quickly and unexpectedly and receive its rewards instantly, like the thief who died alongside Jesus...but for the majority of us, it is a gradual, troublesome march to find the grace that is there - grace that changes everything.

May we keep on marching!
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