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FORUM GUIDELINES and Admin Posts / Re: Forum Maintenance
« Last post by joeteekay on December 17, 2014, 05:14:26 PM »
Hello,
I was unable to get on the forum for the last few days. Was this maintenance, a glitch or was it hi-jacked?
 :dontknow:
32
So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

Ronny to Farlsborough:
I believe it's a combination of the two,as best I understand,what you're saying.

With me,God first had to let me know,that I was lost. That I was not in a right relationship with God. So how can any person be brought to God,until they first are let to know,that they're not in a right relationship with God? Now we can tell people,that they're lost,not in a right relationship with God;but then,only God can truly tell a person that,so that they know such is true.


After God,let me know I was lost,then God simply led me to a person,who read some scriptures to me. And as they did that,I knew it was not only this man and myself who were there;but I also knew and was caused to focus on,that I was in the presence of God,holy God. So God let me see myself and my sinful selfrighteousness and that in comparison to God and God's holiness. And as the scripture well puts it, that was the goodness of God,that led me to repentance. :-) That is,God caused me to see,what I needed to see,both about myself and God. And I agreed with all God showed me. So yes,God drove me to repentance and yes,it was a painful thing for me. And oh yes,you could easily put it,that it was God refining me. And God did that for me,for my own good. :-)

Just as soon as God had brought me to repentance towards God,the love of God,began to flow out upon me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind,of three crosses. And I knew on the center cross,was Jesus Christ. And I knew He was there for me,that taking my sins,upon Himself. :-) That was how God saved me,that was how I came to see my sinfullness,agree with God about that and it's how I came to know, of God/Jesus Christ's,great love for me. :-) Now as I see it,what God has done for me and for some others, God will do the same,for all people; :-) but the timing for that coming to each person,being at the time of God's choosing.

After I was born of God,I slipped back into some of my old ways of thinking,that I was better than some people. And God again,burnt that selfrighteous sinfullness out of me. Now that,was not an easy thing,to go through;but God did such for me,for my own good. And later on,God did the same for me,when I came to hate a particular person,because they had terribly hurt someone,who I dearly loved.

So the thing is,God continues to correct/refine us,after we are born of God. Sometimes those refinings, are painful,very painful;but,they are God's gift to us and always,for our own good. And sometimes God refines/teaches us,in much more pleasant ways. :-) But either way,it is God doing such for us and for our own good. And whether it be in this age or the next,I can't but see God doing the same,for everyone. For God will put into us all,that which we need and God will take out of us all,that which needs taking out. And the taking out part,sometimes that means a burning out,a refining in a lake of fire,to get out of us, that which needs getting out. So however God chooses to do that,in my or any person's life,such is always for our own good and because of the love of God/Jesus Christ,for each and everyone of us! :-)
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"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
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Just trying to see how many are from Canada... I'm in southwestern Ontario


Ronny to URPilgrim:
Good to see y'all,from up north. :-) And was just telling my oldest Sis last night,if I lived up north,I would be sure to turn into a frozen popcicle,before the first winter was out! :-)

And just wanted to stop by here too and comment on that quote in you sig box.

"If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!"

And just saying,Amen to that! :-)
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Amen

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
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 Hello  Farlsborough,
 
  I believe the problem is everyone wants a quick easy and solid answer  and there is none .
 
     God deals with each one of us  differently .

 :iagree: :iagree:
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Jesus cursed the out of season fig tree
« Last post by sheila on December 13, 2014, 08:25:20 PM »
there is a time and season for every purpose under heaven...a time to live and a time to die.[law covenant/death] Grace covenant/life
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Jesus cursed the out of season fig tree
« Last post by dajomaco on December 13, 2014, 07:33:12 PM »
wow. That seems like a strong perspective to me, tho I had never considered it.

But I have often considered the hurt that is expressed, the sting of death as an emotional piercing of Christ's heart, "He came unto His own and His own received Him not"....."Jerusalem, Jerusalem"......the selection of Barabus over Him, when all He had done was heal, deliver, enlighten.

This same piercing sorrow is expressed in many places in the OT by the prophets, such as Hosea's dilemna with Gomer and other parables as well..... perhaps all looking forward too and culminating in the rejection of Messiah by His beloved Israel.


I think the greatest temptation we can have toward anger that leads to sin.
Is when a Loved one betrays us.
When the one we Love knowingly falsely accuses us.


Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
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FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #63

DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."

RESPONSES:

Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam … ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.

Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.

Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.

"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.

If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.

I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"

If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"

If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God
the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.

My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is
similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.

James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.

Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians 15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
40
So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Subscribers to UR have described a process of fiery refinement, and God is pictured (and shadowed/typed) as a furnace, but doesn't scripture seem to indicate that this something for believers? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two? Because one seems to be "only through Christ", and one doesn't, but the one that does seems to fit a picture of fiery refinement less well...  :dontknow:

Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death."

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

Scripture also says the dead know nothing.

"For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

So I think the judgment before the great white throne is when unbelievers will be corrected.

I think the problem is that folks confuse what scripture says about the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet with that of the mortals.

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)

The important thing to remember is that death will be abolished.

"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)

Then all mankind will be saved from death.
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