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31
Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Hidden in the mitzvah
« Last post by lomarah on September 20, 2014, 07:29:24 PM »
 :thumbsup: Working things out for our eternal good. That's what I have to keep at the forefront of my mind or else I find it easy to despair. He has me praising Him for the (future) destruction of sin and death quite frequently nowadays so that I won't be tempted to give up. I am SO looking forward to that day!
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by Tom on September 20, 2014, 07:07:42 PM »
"Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary, for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials. Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand. Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace; with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one. And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by sheila on September 20, 2014, 06:45:42 PM »
I would like to remind you..lostandbroken...that Paul spoke of certain men that would rise up in the church after he was gone..

  that would NOT treat the flock with tenderness..you have  examples in the writings you posted,imo.

  Acts 20;29 I know that after I leave savage wolves will come  in among you and not spare the flock. Even from your own

  number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember

  that for 3 years I never stopped warning you night and day with tears....now I commit youto GOD AND THE WORD OF HIS GRACE

  WHICH CAN BUILD YOU UP...............see.....who tears you down? if not the false shepherds/wolves....but Jesus said feed

 my sheep...build up..in the grace of God..........Jesus had the spirit without measure...that is GRACE WITHOUT MEASURE
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by ed on September 20, 2014, 06:28:16 PM »
i feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

Originally Posted by The Church Fathers


Hi lostnbroken,

Could you give the link so I can look at the whole argument?

________edit__________

Found it.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/there's-an-article-that-states-that-early-chruch-fathers-were-not-universalists!/

:dsunny:

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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Hidden in the mitzvah
« Last post by sheila on September 20, 2014, 05:59:05 PM »
 :thumbsup: Ronen..I had noticed that with the law regarding a bull that gores..and related that to 'the beast' and our Father's
 l
  keeping the law in the spirit of love for us. when being led of the Holy spirit I had two wittness visit me in the night,and tell

  me...but Sheila,man is not responsible for sin.....I had been grieving about the coming judgement of God on the earth.

we being responisible for sin..it's all our fault..etc  my reply to them was 'what? you mean it's not all our fault?"

 This was

  the beginning of me learning about the judgement of God to deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption into

 the glorious freedom. the beginning of me learning of the righteous judgement oof God[not man's in-part,confused judgement

of error.]

   knowing that He made 'arrangements' to protect /preserve our lives before this exercize in good/evil" ever began..and that He is

 very conscientous in His nature of love..and has limited any permanat damge to our lives in the eternal realm..though temporarily

  we both see and suffer from evil/corruption... Father's  ability to make it work out for our own eternal good....and write in our

hearts and minds..the surpassing excellence of His ways..is a lesson well learned and,establishes in righteousness.
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by Tom on September 20, 2014, 05:56:35 PM »
i feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

Originally Posted by The Church Fathers

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:12 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:1213).

Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just is your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:125:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

As for Ignatius of Antioch, if he was indeed a student of Apostle John, then we should revise our opinion and should accept that early church fathers including the apostles actually believed in Eternal Torment!

I think you should study the word of God instead of the "church fathers."

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

I was raised in the Roman church, and I've studied church history. The doctrine of torture forever in fire was established to control people with fear. It is a lie based on forgery in the translation of scripture. Twelve times in the New Testament "Gehenna" is intentionally mistranslated as "hell" to deceive people into thinking they will burn there forever. Gehenna will be used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death in the next eon. Souls die, are not immortal, and therefore cannot suffer torture in fire forever. The concept of forever or "eternal" is also based on intentional mistranslation of the Greek "aion" and its variations which all indicate a period of time not infinite time. What you call "eternal torment" is simply a lie perpetrated by the church. You need to realize we are saved by the grace of God, and eventually all will be reconciled to God through Christ. Stop dwelling on church doctrine that will do nothing but perpetuate your perception of hopelessness. Read Paul's epistles to learn about the grace of God because we are living in the era of grace now. Church doctrine will mess with your mind because it is a distorted evangel propagated to maintain the worldly power of the church not to give you peace with the expectation of salvation. It is based on saving yourself through works, but nothing you can do will save you. And nothing you have done can keep you from being saved if you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins and was raised from the dead by God.   
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by rosered on September 20, 2014, 05:47:03 PM »
Quote
i feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

 I believe  what everyone here is trying to say  ever so gently     without being harsh   Lostnbroken

  is  please do not let your  feelings  dictate     your heart  , though you feel  these    things of  judgment and   forsaken of God ever so strongly   
 
 Can you really trust yourself   and  about how God feels about you ? 

 In all honesty I do believe you have it turned around
 You must trust in God     to how he  feels about you ,    He is no respecter of persons   
 If you have children  you know exactly what I am saying   , can you love one without the other  or do you do   everything for one and   let the other fend for  itself ?
 
 His children are of two natures  disobedient and obedient       , yes that simple
  are they always  obedient or disobedient   , I would  have to say  by  our own nature    in the natural or even spiritual one  , we do     find ourselves    doing    both  ways  at one time or the other 

 But  as a parent  you never stop loving them     
  please    consider this much .


  I am   very simple   and struggle   just like everyone else     
 
 and Hope  in  Jesus  you find some peace      to get though this time , its just a trial of faith   and you  can overcome though Christ 

 :HeartThrob:
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by Tom on September 20, 2014, 05:32:02 PM »
Don't let Satan con you into thinking you're not saved.

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

"if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved" (Romans 10:9)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
39
Judgement and Punishment / Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Last post by lostnbroken on September 20, 2014, 05:25:36 PM »
i feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

Originally Posted by The Church Fathers

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:12 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:1213).

Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just is your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:125:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

As for Ignatius of Antioch, if he was indeed a student of Apostle John, then we should revise our opinion and should accept that early church fathers including the apostles actually believed in Eternal Torment!
40
Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: Hidden in the mitzvah
« Last post by rosered on September 20, 2014, 05:11:33 PM »

 
  Thanks so much Ronen   for that treasure of truth   :thumbsup:
 
 I was searching the Psalms like crazy lol    to compare the      eye and tooth to a set free slave      :footmouth:   
 
 lormarh you are right !!     keep them coming brother    , they can be a benefit to us all   :HeartThrob:
 
 Even Seth comment  helps   us all to  a view    we may not ever see in the Lords ways   
 
 I use the word allowed  As Gods Wisdom      is  profoundly changing us all       and about those trees        lol     and  let  this be a lesson to you     children !!
 
 Yes David was  a beloved  one    a man after Gods own heart     , but suffered in ways    while in the earthly   realm     and it  allowed him to know  his   own soul/life  was  always needing Gods      help and approval   , for me  David acknowledged    God in all his steps      and that is trusting  Him to the ends of the world
 
Gods  Blessings to    you and all today
 
 
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