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Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by Tom on Today at 02:15:18 AM »
Hi Tom,

 Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.

I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.


I agree with you. I think others who suffer for the faith are noble souls, but I wouldn't call them martyrs.
Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by eaglesway on Today at 02:06:08 AM »
I wonder if those who have been imprisoned, tortured, banished, had their children taken from them etc.count also as martyrs.
  both  posts  :dsunny:       we  must learn all   righteousness though faith in His works
 I love that   He only   Jesus only spoke what   heard from Father  and when he told the sons of thunder     that did not know what spirit they were of  ,because they rejected Jesus in that city and wanted to destroy it
 I took this as a warning   to anyone whom would Listen to what the SPIRIT  IS SAYING  , Jesus said I did not come to destroy men's lives but save them     
 Again this is the same ET /destruction   groups that do not know what Spirit they are of   
  and this is Gods command    to save mens lives though Jesus Christ , I do believe that   the Cross  when Jesus said it is finished was   death would be abolished   and judgment  against evil would begin     

  Just as the prophecy  of Isaiah spoke of though the Spirit Gods Spirit also Isaiah 28

17"I will make justice the measuring line And righteousness the level; Then hail will sweep away the refuge of lies And the waters will overflow the secret place.

18"Your covenant with death will be canceled, And your pact with Sheol will not stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place.

 19"As often as it passes through, it will seize you;
For morning after morning it will pass through, anytime during the day or night, And it will be sheer terror to understand what it means."…

 John   12 …

48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;

 the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

 49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

50"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by joeteekay on Today at 01:36:53 AM »
Hi Tom,

 Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.

I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.

A slight change in perspective often changes how we hear.

Jesus is the savior of all who believe.

Eventually all will believe.

At present all do not believe, all are not yet reconciled, all are not yet saved, healed, delivered.

Every knee sahll bow and every tongue confess, wether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father(Phil.2:9-11)

All things will be reconciled to God through the blood of the cross of Christ, whether things on eaarth or in heaven(Col. 1:16-21)

All things will be gathered into one in Christ, things in heaven and earth (Eph 1:9-11)

As in Adam ALL die so also in Christ will ALL be made alive.......Every enemy will be subjected and death will be anulled and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:23-28)

God has shut up all in disobedience that He will hav mercy on ALL........For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS.(Romans 11:32-36)

When I read that Jesus is the savior of all who believe without the context of these other verses(and more) I have picked a verse out of whole cloth(context) and given it my own meaning.

When I read all those other verses as well I see that Jesus is the savior of the whole world (in the fulness of times Eph 1) especially believers(now)

Book of Revelation / Re: The Revelation
« Last post by Shev on Today at 01:32:21 AM »
Fantastic posts, everyone! Revelation is certainly a fascinating book, and even the title seems to have so many layers to it.

Ἀποκάλυψις - Apokalupsis, is a compound composing of "apo" (away from), and "kalupto" (to cover, hide or conceal). So it has the effect of something being taken away to reveal or disclose something else. The beauty of this is that it works on different levels, whether what WW said about the veil and the bride, or the glory of God being seen through our torn flesh as we are chastised and refined into His likeness.

It is interesting to look at other instances of both words, to see how they might tie in to revelation:

Οὐδεὶς δὲ λύχνον ἅψας καλύπτει αὐτὸν σκεύει ἢ ὑποκάτω κλίνης τίθησιν, ἀλλ' ἐπὶ λυχνίας τίθησιν, ἵνα οἱ εἰσπορευόμενοι βλέπωσιν τὸ φῶς.
(No-one lights a lamp and covers it with a vessel or places it under a bed, but places it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light - Luke 8:16)

Μὴ οὖν φοβηθῆτε αὐτούς· οὐδὲν γάρ ἐστιν κεκαλυμμένον ὃ οὐκ ἀποκαλυφθήσεται καὶ κρυπτὸν ὃ οὐ γνωσθήσεται
(So do not fear them - for there is nothing covered/concealed that shall not be uncovered/revealed and hidden that will not be made known - Matthew 10:26)

Λογίζομαι γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ ἄξια τὰ παθήματα τοῦ νῦν καιροῦ πρὸς τὴν μέλλουσαν δόξαν ἀποκαλυφθῆναι εἰς ἡμᾶς. 19ἡ γὰρ ἀποκαραδοκία τῆς κτίσεως τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν τῶν υἱῶν τοῦ θεοῦ ἀπεκδέχεται.
(For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy (of comparison) of the glory that shall be revealed in us. For the eager anticipation of the creation is for the revelation/disclosing/uncovering of the sons of God Romans 8:18-19)

Ὅτε δὲ εὐδόκησεν [ὁ θεὸς] ὁ ἀφορίσας με ἐκ κοιλίας μητρός μου καὶ καλέσας διὰ τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ 16ἀποκαλύψαι τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ ἐν ἐμοί...
(But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called through His grace, to reveal His Son in me - Galatians 1:15-16)

ἵνα τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως πολυτιμότερον χρυσίου τοῦ ἀπολλυμένου, διὰ πυρὸς δὲ δοκιμαζομένου εὑρεθῇ εἰς ἔπαινον καὶ δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν ἐν ἀποκαλύψει Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
(That the testing of your faith, more precious than gold which is destroyed, though being tried by fire, may be found to praise and glory and preciousness in the revelation/disclosure/uncovering of Jesus Christ - 1 Peter 1:7)

ἀλλὰ καθὸ κοινωνεῖτε τοῖς τοῦ Χριστοῦ παθήμασιν, χαίρετε, ἵνα καὶ ἐν τῇ ἀποκαλύψει τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ χαρῆτε ἀγαλλιώμενοι.
(but as you have fellowship with Christ's sufferings, rejoice, so that in the revelation/uncovering/disclosure of His glory you may rejoice exceedingly - 1 Peter 4:13)

Even from this very abbreviated list, it is readily apparent that Christ is revealed in us, shall yet be revealed in greater manifestations both personally and universally, and shall be revealed in great glory, which we share in even as we share in His Spirit within. It is furthermore evident that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be even compared to that glory to come (not even in the same ballpark!), and that though Christ has placed this light in us in a way that sometimes seems hidden, it is not to be concealed forever, as every hidden thing shall be brought to full disclosure, and that glorious Spirit which causes such wondrous yearnings and groanings within us, shall yet raise us up in the full might of His glory after we have suffered a little while.

This great process of revelation, as Jesus Christ is seen more and more through our flesh, which is being torn and burned away by judgment, is for me the great theme of the book of the same name. This book was once an austere and troubling book for me, full of mystery and strange scenes, but though I am still far from full revelation, it has become a book of great joy!

Again, I like WW's point about the bride, and there is an interesting dynamic involved, as the veil which veils the bride also keeps her from seeing the groom clearly, and therefore keeps the groom from being revealed in her clearly as of yet. But we know that this changes day by day, as the glorious passage in 2 Corinthians 3 declares:

Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—  13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.  14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.  15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.  16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.  17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.  18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:12-18)
God will judge the earth and the ancient foundations will be shaken so that Babylon will fall and the city of God exalted which will mean justice, mercy, equitable distribution, fairness before the law,the pursuit of life liberty and happiness will finally be realized.

The arrogant self promoting wisdom from below masquerading as righteousness will be revealed fr the demonic misrepresentation of God that it is by the word of the Lord and the glory of His presence that will cover the earth as the water covers the sea.
Discussions on Universal Salvation / God will judge the world in loyalty
« Last post by Seth on Today at 12:14:41 AM »
The scriptures exhort man to delight in God's coming judgment of the world. Accordingly, the Westboro Baptist Church has made itself infamous for travelling the country "thanking God for dead soldiers" and proclaiming "no hope" for the world in God's coming judgment. Is that the idea? Certainly, they are rejoicing in what they believe is God's judgment, so why is the outcome so twisted? Most Christians hopefully don't revel in other people's misery, especially those they believe are roasting in "hell."

Psalm 96:11-13
Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; Let the sea roar, and all it contains Let the field exult, and all that is in it. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the LORD, for He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness (Hb - enumah).

The Hebrew "enumah" was the word for faith, which they understood to be faithfulness. It means fidelity or loyalty. David, the prophet who was able to look forward and see Christ, is telling the heavens and the earth rejoice for God is coming to judge in righteousness and the people in his loyalty. God is loyal. And, it should be no stretch of the imagination to assert that God would be loyal to his Son's status as "The Savior of the World."
Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by Tom on November 22, 2014, 10:23:12 PM »
I also think there's literal and figurative language in Revelation, but I'm wondering what you mean by "is a martyr a physical martyr or a spiritual martyr?"
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