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Christian Life / Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Last post by gregoryfl on July 30, 2015, 03:33:02 PM »
Shalom Shev,

I think I can understand your concerns and questions about this. I am one who uses the Aramaic text as my primary text for study (perhaps I am the only one here who does so), and from my experience, as much as I personally love to look at the Greek as well (although not fluent in it at all), a study of the Aramaic has yielded many insights for me into why different Greek texts read the way they do. While WW is primarily writing regarding Hebrew, those same idioms hold true with Aramaic as well, and we do at least have copies of it to study from.

I am not sure how much the moderators would want to see any discussion that might be misconstrued as a bashing of those who believe in Greek originals for the 1st century writings, so hopefully what I am writing is acceptable. What I try to bring to this message board is how the Hebrew and Aramaic both give us glimpses into various aspects of Universal reconciliation. I see it much more clearly in the Hebrew and Aramaic than I can in the Greek, personally.

My personal stance is that it is important to use EVERY available resource to get the most complete picture. So, for example, although I primarily study from the Aleppo Codex of the Hebrew Tanakh and the Mosul edition of the Aramaic Pecrapta, I also find it valuable to compare these with the Septuagint and other Greek sources. I encourage others, who primarily rely on the Greek sources of the 1st century writings, to also, to the extent they are able, make use of the Aramaic Pecrapta as well.

As to God being 'Omni'lingual', I wholeheartedly agree.  :thumbsup: He has never been limited to language. Having said that, and I know I am biased when I say this, because of my background and culture, but I very much love mining the riches of the Semitic languages of Hebrew and Aramaic, and trying to find ways to express those riches in English.

Ronen
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Welcome Central - **FIRST POST MUST BE MADE HERE / Re: Dr David Bentley Hart
« Last post by ed on July 30, 2015, 02:32:28 PM »
:welcome:

Well I hope he capitalizes on it.

Can't watch the vid, at work.

Happy trucking!

Here is a good page I came up with on a google search.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/essential-readings-on-universalism/

The 179 Responses to Readings in Universalism at the bottom are interesting.  One of the posters is D.B.Heart............Don't know if that is the guy or not, but he knows his stuff.

Nope, confirmed, he is having a very nice conversation on that page.

Ctrl+f D. B. Heart and you can follow it very nicely.  Good reading.

I'm a fan.  :)



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Welcome Central - **FIRST POST MUST BE MADE HERE / Dr David Bentley Hart
« Last post by Mike Bell on July 30, 2015, 11:58:50 AM »
David Bentley Hart the eminent theologian has "come out" as a Christian universalist. I have included the youtube link to his excellent lecture "is hell forever"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dOsKzh7Kyw      He is very much an intelectual and lots of it is difficult for a truck driver like myself to understand but his main point seems to be that if god created the world knowing that even one person would spend eternity being tortured then creation was a tragedy.

Mikie
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Christian Life / Re: I still go to church, do you?
« Last post by Caffus on July 30, 2015, 07:04:25 AM »
I understand Id like to at least try another church..I actually found a UR believing church recently near me by doing searches on the net. But, my husband seems to like were we are. I'm still praying for them and I believe in time they will come to understanding UR.
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How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"
"So, your religion is merely a fire insurance?"
"Where does the Bible state, believing in Hell is part of salvation"
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I liked the responses so far. There are a few who quoted the following part from the article.

"We are speculating," he said of definitive discussions surrounding heaven and hell. "No one knows.""

How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"
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Christian Life / Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Last post by Shev on July 30, 2015, 02:50:35 AM »
Greek is such a precise language that I believe God used it for the NT. Just an opinion.
The fact that Greek is a more precise language doesn't make it more suited than Hebrew.
The NT is for a large part quoting OT stuff. When quoting Hebrew things in Greek it's impossible to translate the whole meaning. Unless footnotes were added etc.
And losing that meaning, for me speaks against Greek.

Quote
Hebrew authors were writing Hebrew ideas in Greek words
It goes beyond that according to scholars in the Hebrew/Greek field. If the Greek is translated back into Hebrew without reordering words, the result in most cases is perfect Hebrew.

Quote
Hebrew authors were writing Hebrew ideas in Greek words
I wrote this earlier; if we agree the underlaying thoughts are Hebrew doesn't that mean we should avoid thinging the Greek way? And only use the the Greek lexicons to figure out the matching Hebrew word? Because afterall, Hebrew thought is based on Hebrew words. And  as I tried to show with idioms and last few posts with 'hidden' meanings and words having a mental and physical meaning, Greek is just unable to show us the depth of the mind of the writer/translator.

And that's not just a minor thing. It's the basis for a doctrine. :Chinscratch:



http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3b.htm

I understand what you are saying WW, but Hebrew is not the same thing as Spirit, which is why I think God can ordain Hebrews write in Greek for a result He desires. The problem with saying the whole NT should be in Hebrew is we have no way of knowing which would be Hebrew and which Greek. Luke appears to have Greek as his primary tongue, so therefore we should definitely have at least Luke and Acts in Greek, according to that logic. Paul was clearly multi-lingual, and his letters were to Greek speaking churches. Can we really say it would have been better for Hebrew letters to have been sent to those churches? Would not Paul have done so, if it were better, and a 'basis for doctrine'?

Another example if the Septuagint, which is as example of Hebrew definitely translated into Greek, and which is regarded as much more stilted as a result. The NT does not have this same stiltedness, flowing much better in Greek.

I guess, to repeat myself, I would just state that all your questions could apply to those who sent out Greek epistles. You say Greek is "unable to show the depth of the mind of the writer/translator". Well then, why did Paul dare to send out Greek epistles, if they were going to veil the depths of what he was trying to say? Why not rather command the churches to all learn Hebrew?

My contention is not anything against Hebrew as a wonderful language that has been used by God, but rather against the NT all being originally written in Hebrew. I can't see how that would be so without the NT resembling the Septuagint, which it does not in the slightest.

Ultimately, the thoughts that matter are God's, and He does not limit Himself by language. I would hazard to call Him 'Omni-lingual!'!!!
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FORUM GUIDELINES and Admin Posts / Re: FORUM MAINTENANCE
« Last post by TechHelp on July 29, 2015, 11:26:07 PM »
Thank you all for your kind words!  :girlheart:
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Christian Life / Re: The New Testament was written in Hebrew (not Greek)
« Last post by joeteekay on July 29, 2015, 05:10:47 PM »
Thanks WW. Very enlightening.
I found the link you supplied very helpful.
http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3b.htm
 :declare:
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AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html   
   

I can not watch the youtube, but this book is very good.

Thanks for posting.
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