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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Literalism and the Salvation of All.
« Last post by eaglesway on March 30, 2015, 11:34:15 PM »
In my journey to a full assurance of faith concerning the ultimate reconciliation and salvation of all, I began as a literalist from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background.

The thing that arrested me, after being presented with the UR paradigm from the scriptures was this.

There are a lot of scriptures that overtly declare that all will be gathered into one in Christ, subjected to Christ, reconciled to God through Christ, etc.

Those verses, Eph 1:9-11, Col 1:15-20, 1 Cor 15:22-28, Romans 11:31-36, John 12:32, Rev 21:5, when looked at together, were an inescapable network of understanding for me.

When viewing Phil 2: 9-11 integrated within the context of those verses.....

"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

.....it was no longer possible for me to conclude that God would cause all to bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Christ to the Father's glory- just before casting them into the lake of fire for eternal torment or annihilation. It became apparent to me that either those verses were all true in context with one another and without exception, or the scriptures themselves were without a measure of intergrity that qualified them as the "word of God/logos". God cannot, "reconcile all", "gather all things into one in Christ" and become "all in all", if multitudes are tormented forever or annihilated.

A true literalist does not have the option of deciding which verses are literal and which verses are not. Even the metaphors of scripture, the prophetic images and the parables, must integrate with the entire body of the scriptures, without contradiction. Any apparent contradiction provides a reason to press into further understanding, into deeper ground, until the paradox resolves, opening up into a new paradigm.

The scriptures interpret the scriptures, and if their integrity is not absolute, than they are of no value whatsoever for foundational truth and doctrine.

According to Paul, God will become all in all.....

1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet........28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Clearly, after every knee has bowed all, including the enemies who have been subjected, on earth, under the earth, in heaven- God will be ALL IN ALL.

......... For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen(Rom 11:36)


Clearly, Jesus declared this Himself, from earth,

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

and from heaven,

Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end".

This unavoidable conclusion led me to investigate the seeming paradoxes between the views of ET/ED/UR by studying the translation issues surrounding "hell/sheol/gehenna", "olam/aion/age/forever/everlasting", with the help of writers who had gone before(Jukes, Hanson) and a good lexicon, the resolution of all the seeming objections were resolved.

The keys to unlock the matrix of the wisdom of God, "the mystery", have always been there- they have just been obscured by the foibles of men. The scriptures, properly translated, taken in full context with one another, provide the Great Resolution :)

Eph 1:9-11 In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Col 1:19,20 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.

Whatever the process, whatever the mists obscuring some of the details, 'seen through a glass darkly" or not, the scriptures make it clear that God will become ALL IN ALL, and that this was His plan from the beginning. No true literalist can deny it, once presented with all the evidence.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:19-21

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Rom 11:31

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22
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Word Studies / Re: Hell
« Last post by marie glen on March 30, 2015, 11:33:49 PM »

I always find it interesting that it was Josiah - the Man Child - who finally desecrated Topeth...a very symbolic act.

   ! absolutely! I never noticed that! ..thanks!  :gsmile:

Marie, things are so mixed up - you mention the names of a couple of pagan gods, but did you know that God not only told us not to worship them, but He told us not to even mention their names?  In my writings, instead of giving the name of some pagan god or other, I use this formula:  [pagan god, name deleted by command of God].

..that's a good way of your doing it..  :smile:


 Yet, I note that in the KJV, which many people almost seem to worship, the names of any and all pagan gods are transliterated, but the name of the True God is just rendered as LORD.  That's mixed up.

     :Chinscratch: hmmm, that iS a bit curious now isn't it..! :o
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men like to come up with a lot of 'understandings'  and 'put God in a box' where they may 'comprehend' Him...and think they

  have it all figured out. The problem when they do this.is that the light gets brighter and brighter...and there is

 nothing concealed[unseen] that will not be revealed.

   Imagine! we silly humans thinking we can comprehend and figure Him out! or put Him in a box we can then feel we understand all there is to understand about Him
        :LH:

   There is nothing hidden/concealed/unseen that will not be revealed/we can not judge by the appearance of our eyes..before

  the time He reveals "our life" which is hidden[unseen] in Christ.

     :thumbsup: :banana:
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Sis, what I was referring to is the added words in 1 John 5:7 in popular versions thanks to pressure from the Roman Catholic Church on Erasmus to try to produce something to verify the Trinity. Earlier Greek manuscripts didn't contain those words.

"6 This is He Who is coming through water and blood and spirit--Jesus Christ--not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood. And the spirit it is which is testifying, for the spirit is the truth, 7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, 8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing." (1 John 5:6-8 Concordant Literal New Testament)

"6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness , because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:6-8 King James Version)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Remember that Strong's is the concordance of the King James Version. I prefer the Keyword Concordance at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament, which "doesn't always flow as smoothly," as you say, because it's purpose is to be literal and concordant. I read the King James for years before giving it up for the sake of accuracy. There are words in it that have been intentionally changed or added to promote the doctrine of orthodox theology which contradicts the truth of scripture. So I gladly sacrifice smooth flowing language for the sake of truth. You get used to the Concordant Version after awhile and appreciate having a more accurate translation. Regarding your reference to "sheol," it's the Hebrew correspondent of the Greek "hades." I'm not sure why you're "suspicious" of "unseen." Here's some information that may be helpful.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheSoulAndTheUnseen.html

I quite agree! the idea of `soul` as inherent immortality is, imo, not supported in God's Word, and is the foundation of the 'hell' doctrine.. and therefor is a real world of trouble!!

I do love my new Concordant version NT, but still use other versions as I like to read what I'm studying or reading more than once, in more than one way.. but this may be not ideal for a new believer, who is not well acquainted with the notorious inaccurate (word) translations! (And how sad is thAt! whether humanly intentional, or demon misdirected, or both - we will know for sure, for "nothing shall remain hidden")

I've been known to paraphrase and mix versions (to be most understandable) when discussing God's word.. using words like agelasting, while explaining the inaccurate translation; and using death or the grave, instead of hell or even hades. I have a persistent image of the place of the dead as the grave, and the tombstone is the head of the bed..   :laughing7:
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2 Cor 5:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

"The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it"

Therefore walk as children of the day :o)
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Beautiful! :dsunny:
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#19 By Walter Lanyon
 
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
With this overshadowing comes the peace that passeth ALL. An osmosis - absorption - a blending; into the ONE takes place and there is no longer question and answer, problem and solution.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" becomes a reality. There is no limitation - no questioning whether the desire is good, bad, or indifferent - for from this elevation the desire is the shape of the idea sent straight from the heart of God, and is made alive by the pulsating heartbeat of the universe.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" yet are you desireless, free from wanting and ready to move into a place of substance, out of the place of things and yet in the midst of them all. You are suddenly One. There is no more you and your problem, there is only you. You pass easily through the crowd of beliefs.
The Light universal keeps shining. As it intensifies, it absorbs the shadows of human belief; nothing matters, yet, everything does. It transform the Temple-body into a tenuous substance, through which it can shine forth, - assuming any attribute of God at will. Healing is not, then, some wonder projected through human thought, but rather the enveloping of the Golden Shadow. It is a natural blending with LIFE which rules out the narrow confines of health and strength in humankind. I AM suddenly submerged in a sea of LIFE - eternal, golden, and all redolent with the LOVE of God.
For the first time, the mystical becomes the intensely practical - the only real thing you have ever known. Sight becomes a capacity to peer through the dense midnight of thought, by means of the Light which projects its Golden Shadow from the "Mind which was also in Christ Jesus" and which you realize is the mind that is also in you.
No longer will you compromise with this power and put it through a thousand and one beliefs concocted by the mind of man. Instead, you permit it to take shape and form, even as the air takes the shape automatically of any vessel, yet never congeals or becomes set in that form, but lasts only for the moment of the duration of the desire.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" - it is a carte blanche releasement of HIS Love, and it has to be received naturally and not as some special dispensation. It is as though the Golden Shadow has cleared away all obstruction between you and His Love, and you can hear, and really HEAR what is being communicated to the earth plane; now you can really know the full dimensions of His Love, and that all manifestation will take place, independent of your thought and without any effort.
As a sudden heavy rain falls upon a parched desert and is instantly absorbed, so does this descent of spirit come upon you. It instantly changes the nature of the desert and the very seeds already there begin to stir. Something is to take place - "the desert is to blossom as a rose" - because of the downpour of His Love, and because of the Recognition. You are being conditioned to a new dimension.
The Golden Shadow is the Golden Fleece which you have sought for so long and which has been guarded by the Gorgon, with her snaky locks of human devices, ways and means. Upon whomsoever this Golden Shadow rests, something - a quickening, takes place - without effort, and without any of the old ideas of healing and helping. It is entirely impersonal and natural and has nothing at all to do with human thought. Nothing can stay it, nothing can project it; it is a natural movement or urge in the mind of God passing through the temple-body (man) casting the Golden Shadow of Love and doing the things called "miraculous" by its revealing Light.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." Heaven and earth are full of thee - full, pressed down, and running over - there is not one empty vessel left, - even the borrowed ones are full. The Love of God keeps flowing until everything is satisfied. And all the while the Golden Shadow keeps revealing the intensely practical angle of it. It is not a mystical intangible thing, but something to be experienced and something to be handled with the hands and something that causes the wine of inspiration to flow through the body-temple with the rush of a pure mountain torrent. Health is absorbed into the LIFE of GOD, which knows no limitations.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." You must be ALIVE to participate in this benefit. You have to come out of the tomb of human thinking into the clean, fresh and almost fierce tides of LIFE. You have to be ALIVE in the recognition and the instant response to HIS Voice.
To human thought His word is almost unbearably stimulating, breaking its limitations. The Spirit refuses to be longer held in the narrow confines of the letter. The grandeur, the magnificence of pure Spirit leaves you speechless and bereft of all thought. "Let the earth keep silent before me and renew her strength" - the body, the temple, the earth of you is experiencing the renewing of self-revelation.
You have entered a new mansion where there are "singing masons building roofs of gold."* "Beauty, then is the destiny" ** which begins to shape itself and put to flight the FATE of human thought.
Yes, "thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desires of every living thing." Right now - stay there a moment.
"Not to desire is to have." Can you hear? Walter Lanyon
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Word Studies / Re: Hell
« Last post by Lazarus Short on March 30, 2015, 02:09:47 AM »
Marie, things are so mixed up - you mention the names of a couple of pagan gods, but did you know that God not only told us not to worship them, but He told us not to even mention their names?  In my writings, instead of giving the name of some pagan god or other, I use this formula:  [pagan god, name deleted by command of God].  Yet, I note that in the KJV, which many people almost seem to worship, the names of any and all pagan gods are transliterated, but the name of the True God is just rendered as LORD.  That's mixed up.
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Word Studies / Re: Hell
« Last post by Shev on March 29, 2015, 09:04:51 PM »
Hey Marie Glen - I like your comment on Molech, as I think that false god is very symbolic of the hell misconception. His altar Topeth was in the Valley of Hinnom, which became translated Gehenna in Greek, which in turn became part of the English mistranslation and misconception when it was translated as hell.

I always find it interesting that it was Josiah - the Man Child - who finally desecrated Topeth...a very symbolic act.
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Word Studies / Re: Hell
« Last post by marie glen on March 29, 2015, 08:48:16 PM »
...amen... (to all of the above). I am thinking 'hell' was bound up in mankind's old king/priest order of things.. and every city had its 'god'/baal ...yet behind it perhaps, was all the esoteric type things.. the idea of initiation and ascending levels of so called enlightenment (and initiation).

..maybe from the beginning, it was an alternate belief.. did Cain bring an inferior offering because he secretly believed the `live on` lie the adversary had used in Eden?

I think there was an esoteric belief the universe sprang forth from fire.. the spark of life?

...the absolute and true origin of the hell myth is one of those side issues i like to try to chase down every so often.. (obsessed w/ seeing the whole picture? :dontknow: )

"Pagan roots" is, without a doubt, imo, absolutely true.. I think very pre-christian and i equate it with Canaan's baal, Molech.. but don't know if that's accurate or not..
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