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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Re: Psalms 55 Hell?
« Last post by jabcat on Today at 04:10:15 AM »
Many, perhaps even most Christian Universalists believe there is a place for corrective punishment after death.  Sheol means "the unseen state, the realm of the dead".  "Hell" is from an old English word, hel, which means covered over [hidden].  It's just that this place is not seen as eternal, it's seen as lasting for an age, until its purposes have been accomplished - every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  Also, re: the specific scripture.  It seems possible David was praying that his enemies be punished by sent to this underworld/unseen place while alive, as said, quickly and without preparation?  Blessings.
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I don't kno what the "UR belief" on the LOF would be. To me it is standing in the unapproachable light/fire of God in His presence and in the presence of all His holy messegers(Hebrews 12 assembly) until every hidden thing is brought to light and every veil is consumed. Not sure if this is typical of UR or what the "typical UR belief on the LOF would be. I have heard so many differing views on it in this forum. My view is explained briefly at             www.Hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm

I thought the UR interpretation of the LOF is that it is meant to purify, not torture or destroy
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Christian Life / Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Last post by Searching_For_The_Truth on Today at 04:06:35 AM »
Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

Amen, that is the best way to put it
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Christian Life / Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Last post by jabcat on Today at 02:57:57 AM »
Here's Gary's view.  I've looked at the issue, and here's where I've settled;  making it almost impossible to be saved by legalism and works, while damning most people to hell for eternity is a ditch on one side of the road.  IMO, on the other side of the road is a ditch where "everyone's already saved, they just need to realize it, wake up, live like it", etc.  Isolated scriptures and alternate POV can "make the case" for either one.  To my current understanding, although I certainly don't understand all there is to know about it (understatement:), I believe the consensus of scripture is included in the following -

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/tm's-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/msg95116/#msg95116

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings [INCLUSION]. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Re: Psalms 55 Hell?
« Last post by Seth on Today at 01:24:14 AM »
Wouldn't it stink for death to come upon you so suddenly as to throw you into the grave and be buried alive?
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Arguments Against Universal Salvation / Psalms 55 Hell?
« Last post by Searching_For_The_Truth on July 23, 2014, 11:39:27 PM »
I am wondering if the following verse implies that Sheol and Hell are the same thing.


Psalms 55:15
 KJV
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.


Let death come deceitfully upon them; Let them go down alive to Sheol, For evil is in their dwelling, in their midst.
- New American Standard Version (1995)

Let the hand of death come on them suddenly, and let them go down living into the underworld; because evil is in their houses and in their hearts.
- Basic English Bible

Many other translations for the verse can be found in http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-55-15/

I thought that Sheol was supposed to be the grave. Then how can people go to the grave alive? Unless Sheol is meant to be Hell. I would appreciate your feedback

God Bless
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What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.

I wonder the same thing at times. I have reached the conclusion that they feel the way they do because they were taught the ET belief while growing up. From my experience, it is harder for new believers (and believers who were previously from a different faith) to accept the ET doctrine than it is for people who have been taught that their whole lives. Also, many believers try to put their own personal feelings aside and accept the Bible for what it says regardless of how harsh it may seen.
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Christian Life / Re: 'In Christ'...How?
« Last post by gregoryfl on July 23, 2014, 11:22:38 PM »
If no one else objects, then I will get to work on this. Although I will draw much on the Apostolic writings for this subject, I will also be drawing on the scriptural foundation they had in their day, the Tanach, because parts of it are essential to understanding this from the whole counsel of God.
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What I find interesting is this: How can anyone love, worship and adore a Being Who eternally tortures people in fire.
The only reason I can find is that if they don't love, worship and adore this Being they fear they too will meet the same fate.
So fear is what drives them. They don't have a sincere love for this Being. Rather it is born out of fear.

Such a Being is to be loathed, spat upon, and rid from the universe.
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: The Eons in the Sacred Scriptures
« Last post by Tony N on July 23, 2014, 11:10:25 PM »
I believe the chart is accurate. However, I think the rapture will occur on the 7th trumpet (at the end of the Great Tribulation).
Hi,
One of the reasons I brought up this point about the eons is I have some friends who believe the flood of Noah's day was just a localized flood in the Mesopotamian valley.
But if this is the case, Why would God have Noah take over 100 years to build a massive ark? Instead, God could have had him save all that time and just taken about a week to walk all those animals over the mountain range to the east. The birds certainly could easily have flown over those mountains to safety. But no amount of common sense will cause them to give up their position. They have made up their minds and that's that.

And since there were at least two eons we know of in the Old Testament, we see each eon was ended by a world-wide cataclysm. The world-wide flood had to have been a world-wide cataclysmic event. But even this is not enough to sway them. They believe God will save all. I just find it interesting how intractable people can be. I don't hold it against them. It's just interesting, that's all.
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