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Humor-Poems-Songs-Movies / Re: Tell Me The Story of Jesus
« Last post by jabcat on November 28, 2014, 06:50:08 PM »
 valley of Jehoshaphat.....lake of fire.....judgment.
Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by rosered on November 28, 2014, 05:45:44 PM »
  Wow! Thanks JOE!!  and John for expounding    on this
 Love studying on the 7   Spirits Eyes !      seven eyes on ONE STONE /JESUSCHRIST   Listen to what the Spirit is saying to the  churches being 7  or the fulness of
Zech  3 …8'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you-- indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch. 9'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"
   Do you think its the  white stone and  new name in Rev 3  ?
There sure is a difference when you   compare  between   the two types !!! :thumbsup:
 Gods will be done on earth as it is in Heaven  :cloud9:
  I found this interesting to  bro

this is the same description in Isaiah 6 Isaiah Becomes a Prophet
6 In the year that King Uzziah died [C 740 bc], I saw the Lord sitting on a ·very high [L high and exalted] throne. ·His long [L The train/trailing part of his] robe filled the Temple. 2 ·Heavenly creatures of fire [L Seraphim; C the word means "burning ones" and points to purity, power, or judgment] ·stood above [or attended] him [Rev. 4:6–9]. Each creature had six wings: It used two wings to cover its face [C as a shield from God's awesome glory], two wings to cover its ·feet [or body; C indicating humility; "feet" can be a euphemism for genitals], and two wings for flying. 3 Each creature was calling to the others:

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord ·All-Powerful [Almighty; of Heaven's Armies; T of hosts].
    His glory fills the whole earth."
4 ·Their calling [The sound/noise from each one's voice] caused the ·frame around the door [doorposts; threshold foundations] to shake, as the Temple filled with smoke.
Rev_4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev_5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

  There is sooooo  much to learn     I am amazed every day!!!! 
Book of Revelation / Are these dead works from dead people of the dead church ?
« Last post by rosered on November 28, 2014, 05:39:51 PM »

 I am  curious to what Jesus means when He calls the Church of  Sardis /red ones . The name "Sardis" means "escaping ones" or "those who come out"   you  have a name but you are  dead  ?
  Like they are sleeping   and there is a  verse that Paul also warns about some " sick and sleeping in the  church/ escaping ones " , those whom accepted Jesus Christ
 and Hebrews 6  mentions     leaving behind those    carnal baby   things  and repentance  of dead works /deeds   and  press on  into maturity     being the seven  EYES    Spirits   in the Seven  Churches     Isaiah 11
 Are they the red spots in the Love Feasts ,  the WHITE ROBE  GATHERING , they appear Holy before men and have a  good reputation   as ALIVE  , but Jesus says  you are dead to MY FATHER/GOD         , not Our Father ?
 Saying this because its Jesus own words that says   If they change they will be given  White to wear as a covering  and   judges this  church  this is His judgments    and if   they receive   His Righteousness

Does this still apply to us to this day ?   
Revelation 3 Expanded Bible (EXB)

To the Church in Sardis
3 "Write this to the ·angel [messenger; see 1:20] of the church in ·Sardis [C the capital of the Roman province of Lydia in western Asia Minor]:

"The One [C the resurrected Jesus] who has the ·seven spirits [C referring either to angels or to the "sevenfold Spirit"—the Holy Spirit portrayed in his perfection; 1:4]

 and the seven stars [1:16] says ·this [ these things]:

 I know ·what you do [your works]. ·People say [ You have a name/reputation] that you are alive, but really you are dead.

2 Wake up! Strengthen what you have left ·before it dies completely [or which is about to die

I have found that ·what you are doing is less than what my God wants [ your works are incompleted/unfulfilled before my God].

 3 So ·do not forget [L remember] what you have received and heard. Obey it, and ·change your hearts and lives [repent].

 ·So you must wake up, or [L But if you do not wake up,]

 I will come like a thief, and you will not know ·when [L at what hour] I will come ·to [upon; against] you.

4 But you have a ·few [few people; L few names] there in Sardis who have kept their clothes ·unstained [unsoiled; undefiled], so they will walk with me ·and will wear white clothes [L in white], because they are worthy.

5 Those who ·win the victory [overcome; conquer] will be dressed in white clothes like them.

And I will ·not [never; C an emphatic negation] erase [wipe out; blot out] their names from the ·book [scroll] of life [Ex. 32:32–33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1],

but I will ·say they belong to me [L confess their names] before my Father and before his angels. 6 Everyone who has ears should ·listen to [hear; obey] what the Spirit says to the churches.
  Have your name blotted out   is the same as not being His ?
 Because your name is on the lambs book of Life      for it to be blotted out   by Him   correct?
Lounge / Re: Happy Thanksgiving!
« Last post by RonnyTX on November 28, 2014, 04:03:36 PM »
Happy Thanksgiving to all my brothers and sisters in the USA and the world because we all have a lot to be thankful for.

Ronny to Tom and All:
Amen and Happy Thanksgiving to all! :-)

Sis has her oldest and youngest boy here now and their wives. The older boy has 3 kids,8,5 and 3 years old and the younger boy,he and his wife have a little boy,who is around 4 months old now. :-) Got to see him last night and he sure is growing! :-) Told his parents,they must by using Miracle Grow on him! LoL

I went to one of those special Thanksgiving sales yesterday evening,at our local Walmart. First time I've ever gone to one of those and it was a madhouse! (ha) :-) First hint that it was going to be,was when I pulled into the large Walmart parking lot and it was already filled up, just before 6pm! So,had to park across the street,in the Lowes parking lot! Good thing most of the traffic was turning in at Walmart or I would of never make it,across that 4 lane road! (ha)

Got into our Walmart and went in the wrong side of the store! The main aisle just packed with people and carts! Couldn't get anywhere,so back out and in another door! Better down on that side. :-) Never did find,two of the things I thought to get;but did find the cheap watch, that I wanted! :-) LoL Had a cheap one before and it still lasted for several years! :-)

Got back to Sis's house and our other sister and her husband was here. And so glad their daughter,her husband and their two kids were here as well! Haven't seen them in a long time and it sure was good,to see them again! :-)

8am now,this Friday morning. I was up at 6:30;but no one else up at that time. Sis and her oldest boy,sleeping in the living room in recliners. Time to go see,if anyone else is up yet?! :-)
The lake of fire is only spoken of in the context of corrections upon the rebellious in the age to come.
Not so. It's just the first time it's called by that names. Which is one of many. Lot's of things had/have several names/descriptions. (Jesus has 200+)

Exo 30:19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it.

- There always needs to be a witness of a verse/concept. Without it a verse/concept can be considered as not existing.
- A very large part of Revelation is following the pattern of the daily Temple service.
- Revelation uses many things (altars, incense, etc) found in the literal Temples.
- All animal sacrifices were washed with its water. -> Animals of the clean type.

Combine that with all the names and meanings that were linked to the laver, water and brimstone it's imo without any support it's only for unbelievers. Unless you count (high) priests among the unbelievers. It was even only used for the happy few. The average believing Jew never used it. They just baptized (mikvah) themselves in the living water of rivers.

Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by eaglesway on November 28, 2014, 07:00:22 AM »
the presbuteros of God is scattered throughout the scripture.

1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Zech 3:6 And the angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.

Amos 3;7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Psalms 82:1 God stands in the assembly [of the representatives] of God; in the midst of the magistrates or judges He gives judgment [as] among the gods.(Amplified)(Elohim judges the el in the assembly of the elohim; or the Alimighty judges the mighty in the assembly of the mighty)

There is a sense available from many sources in scripture that God reigns in council. This is His pleasure, and a privilege for those who ascend(by grace and election) into His presence. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.  "The one who overcomes will sit with me on my Father's throne"...."will inherit all things"

Paul made it clear, imo, that he exercised authority in the presence of God, from the "throne room".

These 24 elders are like a select group, elect, chosen, to the council of God in the inner court, but they are also symbolic of the presbuterion in any assembly in any generation, those who draw near to the throne of God, those to whom He gives "charge over my courts", those who walk among the stones of fire..... as in,...

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant

As you get closer to the throne, there are the souls under the altar, the 24 elders that surround the throne(casting their crowns before Him)- imo these all represent Pauls Philippians statement

Phil 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that or which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

When John and James Mom asked the Lord Jesus to put them at His right and left(as the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth, the two olive trees) He replied that that was not His to give but was for them to whom it was appointed/predestined. I think the 24 elders and the souls beneath the altar are like that, and I think in every generation God has those who stand in His councils by election and those who don't.

IMO these are pictures of the throneroom, the heavenly innermost court, the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus where all spiritual blessings abound" -  in the earth in the now for disciples to see how the veil is torn and how the ecclesia ar manifested as the tabernacle of God under the headship of Jesus. Like, "The Bride 'coming down from out of heaven'" even as Jesus said, "I am the bread of life that comes down out of heaven".
Book of Revelation / Re: Souls Under the Altar
« Last post by joeteekay on November 28, 2014, 05:49:29 AM »
From WW post #63

John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.

My comment:

I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the  7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm.  Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO


  Hi Joe    I thought about this for a  bit and considered  them to be the watchers  and of the Ancients   in Daniel they ate the ones determining  King Nebuchadnezzar

  sentence   watchers      Strong's H5894 - `iyr   the guardians   watchers   scriptures  in Daniel 4
  Hebrews 11;2  And by this there was a testimony/witness  concerning the ancients.
 here is some of the scriptures concerning them

Dan 7:9   I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
  thrones cast down

lDan 7:13   I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
lDan 7:22   Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here are the remaining matches.
Job 12:12   With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
Psa 77:5   I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Isa 23:7   Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.
Isa 51:9   Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
 Rev 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  Just really do not know ,
  I did noticed some   it was for the testimony of Jesus being the new  testament and the     Word of God being of the old   testament ,
        but thought it was interesting

Hello Rose and all,

I have given more thought to what I posted about the Elders mentioned in Revelation (Unveiling) and to your thought about the watchers.

Rose, I found your reference to the word watcher (s) very intriguing  It is found in only 4 verses, 3 in Daniel The one in Jeremiah is not the same word in Hebrew so that one is not relevant.  So the concordances offer little to go on or to associate that with other scriptures.

IMO elders and watchers are not the same thing.  The elders mentioned in the Old Testament always referred to people, not spirit beings.  They were typically folk who had wisdom from a long life  and experience and were on councils or in senates to make decisions.  Hebrew word H1419 and H2205.

But the watcher(s) appear to be spirit beings who are from heaven (Dan 4:13, 23) quite different than elders.  What is their role and purpose?  However I tend to agree with you when you state that they are to ones determining (looking over?) King Nebuchadnezzar.

This story about King Nebuchadnezzar is amazing.  It is a miracle that the kingdom would be restored to Nebuchadnezzar after 7 years since it would be "normal"  for a general, satrap or a strong usurper to take over as ruler and have the deranged king put to death. Obviously, God was preventing this from happening.  Possibly the watchers were involved in this process and also possibly God  had Daniel installed as the temporary sovereign.

So IMO the watchers are spirit beings who are not well explained to us in scripture. Could they be Michael, Gabriel, other Messengers?  Maybe, but not likely?

When I look at the word watcher (H5894) in the Hebrew/Aramaic, it looks very much like the Hebrew word eyes H5870.

Watcher =  (H5894) עִיר     Eyes  =  (H5870עַיִן

If this is so then the word eye(s) has an interesting association to the verses in Revelation 4 and 5 where eyes are mentioned.

Rev_4:6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev_4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev_5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Perhaps these eyes (watchers?) can go to and fro throughout the earth according to God's purpose.

The word Ancient is an interesting study too.. Rose you mentioned Dan. 7:9, 13 and 22 where the Ancient of days is found. Here in Daniel Ancient is translated from H6268.  Once again, the only place this word is found is in the book of Daniel in 3 verses.

All translations I have looked at translate H6268 as Ancient except for the CLV, which translates the word as Transferrer in English.

Either way I believe the Ancient of Days in the 3 verses in Daniel refers to God the Father.  How so?  Dan. 7:13 and 7:22:

Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

In verse 13 the son of man (Jesus Christ) is coming—not to the earth, but to the Ancient of Days ( Father in heaven)—with the clouds of heaven. Yes, it's a vision but a vision of a future event described in Rev. 4:11 and  5:12-13.

Christ receives all power and all authority and with Him are the resurrected saints.  No longer is Satan the god of this eon (Rev. 12:9).

Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

I put a lot of stuff in this post and probably covers much more than the original post by Jabcat sought concerning "souls under the alter"

Perhaps this post should be more appropriately put into word studies?  :dontknow:

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