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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by Tom on October 31, 2014, 08:27:59 PM »
So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:

"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?

Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20  For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged.  :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:

I think there is some confusion about the judgment of the nations and the judgment of individuals before the great white throne. I think those who died before Christ are not in the body of Christ, the chosen ecclesia, who meet him in the air when we're snatched away to be saved, from the coming indignation, for eonian life to minister in the celestial realm, who are mostly those of us of the nations with some Jews such as Paul and his companions. I think the judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats (kids), as to whether they were friends or adversaries of Israel, will come at the beginning of the millennium, and the adversarial nations will be subjected to "chastening eonian" (kolasin aionion) figuratively with "fire eonian." I think the judgment for individual unbelievers before the great white throne will take place at the end of the millennium when they will be condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." I know this has been mentioned before, but I don't think "chastening eonian" applies to "the second death-the lake of fire" because mortals condemned to it will be dead, and scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons, which indicates they must be supernatural creatures not subject to death. Scripture says souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't see anybody being chastened in "the lake of fire" except those creatures not subject to death.

"Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left. "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world. For I hunger and you give Me to eat; I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in; naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.' "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink? Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee? Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?' "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.' "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers. For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink; a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.' "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?' "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)

I think the information under the chart on the following webpage gives a good explanation of who, why, and when the "just" are judged.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by Seth on October 31, 2014, 08:21:52 PM »
Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.
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Word Studies / Re: 10th hour, 6th hour in John
« Last post by joeteekay on October 31, 2014, 08:11:55 PM »
Very Impressive Chart WW. I guess in regards so Deena's qustion it would be during the the Roman opression period that the times are applicable and that would agree with Tom's assesment.
 :2c:
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by micah7:9 on October 31, 2014, 08:09:26 PM »
I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.

Yes, I agree, ".....the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith."
I can almost also agree, ".... the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" the "just" I believe are yet carnal, and that carnality will be burned up.
Yes, " but my  :2c: would read, ....fire is representative of Grace, and it is the proud who resist the fire.
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by Seth on October 31, 2014, 07:10:30 PM »
I agree but but I think the fire for the LOF is for destruction not for building faith. For me, the "just" if they are to be in the lake of fire, are actually "ungodly men" who Peter said were reserved for destruction. I agree that fire is a symbol of judgement, but I would say also that not all judgments take the same form. Some fire is representative of Grace, and some for resistance of the proud.
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by micah7:9 on October 31, 2014, 06:59:33 PM »
I believe it was clarified that it's not a IN the fire situation. There is to be a judgment, now my  :2c: is that the elect/chosen are being judged now...for those who have ears to hear, by FIRE.
1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
That judgment is FIRE, my  :2c: is that all judgment is FIRE.  The L of F is the FINAL judgment by FIRE. This is all a spiritual work. 
Joh 5:29  and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.


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Word Studies / Re: 10th hour, 6th hour in John
« Last post by WhiteWings on October 31, 2014, 06:48:13 PM »
See attached picture.
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by Seth on October 31, 2014, 06:31:27 PM »
In my opinion, if the just are to be in the lake of fire, then they weren't really just. They were most likely having their own righteousness. If we look at the parable of the sheep and goats, to me the description of the goats epitomizes who is in the LOF. Same with the description of who is "outside" the gates.
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FAQs Regarding UR / Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Last post by micah7:9 on October 31, 2014, 06:23:41 PM »
So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:

"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?

Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20  For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged.  :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:
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Word Studies / Re: 10th hour, 6th hour in John
« Last post by Tom on October 31, 2014, 05:15:17 PM »
I think the 10th hour is 4pm, and the 6th hour is noon.
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