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Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by RonnyTX on Today at 05:13:56 PM »
(snip)"The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in any passage of any correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I agree.

The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I disagree. Example? "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him." 1 John 4:16 King James Version. Now the KJV is not a perfect version,yet it quite correctly says,that God is love. :-)

To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.

Ronny to JBerton:
I was taught in the local church and used to believe,that only the King James Version was a 100% correctly translated Bible. And I believed to read in another translation,was sin or the next thing to sin. And why would I  want to read in such anyway,when I already had,the one and only true Bible?! :-) Or so I was taught to believe,in the local church I grew up in. But then,God showed/taught me better. :-) And it took me at least 2 trips to the local library,to actually pick up and take home,a non KJV  of the Bible,that they were giving away. And when I got it home,I let no one see it or see me reading in it! And lo and behold,as I read in it,I saw that it also contained the gospel of Jesus Christ and many other truths of
God. Was it a perfect translation? I'm sure it wasn't. But God used it,to help and teach me. So,God uses even nonperfect translations of the Bible,both in saving a lost person and in continueing to teach them.

Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever." (snip)

Ronny to JBerton:
Yes,some Bible translations do speak of hell and a hell,that is eternal. And yes,many preachers and teachers teach that. And many of us sit in the pews and believe that,because we have also been taught in church to believe,that to hear our preacher/teachers words,is the same as hearing directly from God. That's not true;but then many are brought up in local churches and taught to believe that such is true.

Just thinking,I need to get back over to my own house and pick up that translation of the Bible,that I found years ago,at our local library. The one,that they were giving away for free. As best I remember,it has writings in the margins sometimes,that shows a different way a word could be translated. The first cope of a Bible,that I remember seeing,that did that.
(snip)But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all?  As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy.  Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.(snip)

Ronny to Raider:
This has got me to just thinking here,about when I was born of God and God showed me mercy. :-) And I didn't even know I needed such,for I was a local church member,who truly believed,that I was already a Christian. Yet I wasn't. No,I was a lost sinner and God showed mercy to me. God poured out His love,grace and mercy upon me. :-) God let me know that I was lost. God compelled me to go to a man, who simply read some scripture to me. And as he did,I knew that God was there and God that was holy. And in contrast to that,God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness. God let me compare the two and that was the goodness of God,that led me to repentance. :-) And when I repented/agreed with what God showed me about myself,the love of God began to pour out upon me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind,of three crosses and I knew on that center cross,was Jesus Christ and that He was there for me, there taking my sins upon Himself. So God proved to me directly,just how greatly God did love me. :-) God showed and proved that too me,in how God saved me,in how I was born of God. And then I simply prayed and thanked God,for what He had just done for me. Then I went and told others,what God had just done for me and indeed,I could do no else. :-) And then the desire of my heart,was that every person have the same type of relationship with God,as I then had. God gave me that desire. :-) Then much later on,I was rereminded of the scripture that says,God shall give us the desires of our heart! :-)

So,before I was born of God,I was a criminal/sinner. Yet God had mercy on me. :-) And I didn't go out and search for God,for I didn't even know I needed to. I thought I was already a saved Christian. No, God came and searched me out and saved me. Which is how I know,that what God has done for me and for some,before all is said and done,God will do for all. :-) For it is by Gods love grace and mercy,that us criminals/sinners are saved/born of God and in that way,put back in a right relationship with God. It is all God's doing and that,because God/Jesus Christ is love! :-)
.....because many fail to rightly divide the word[sword of His mouth] they err and condemn to eternal destruction

  those whom God worked redemption for..all of mankind. God showed in the scriptures through His dealings with Israel

  how when they disobeyed He would bring a nation more wicked against them for correction/discipline and lead them

 to repentance/return to Him. And after,would destroy that very nation.

    when Adam and Eve disobeyed in the garden..eating from the tokogae.....evil become part of which they were to

partake and have knowledge of...culminating in God judged. However,even during God's judgement at that time

He spoke of the woman's seed that would overcome the serpent/evil....and death.

   The Revelation of Christ concludes with the new deathless state,free from all evil/wickedness and its having

  been consumed of God in the consummation of His restorative work. God with us!=reconciliation of all men.

  the writer of the op makes out God as a what I say,not what I do.........he thinks God is like himself.

   Isaaih 57  the righteous perish and no-one ponders it in his heart,devout men are taken away and no-one understands

  that the righteous are taken away TO BE SPARED FROM EVIL.those who walk uprightly enter into peace,they find rest

 as they lie in death...

   God made man upright,but he has sought out many imaginations.....


By a pastor-theologian who won't even sign his own name, how intellectually courageous.

It amazes me how many people who disagree with UR so vehemently spend sooo much time and effort in writing articles and tomes disagreeing with it. I would never invest my own time and thoughts in something I disagreed with so strongly. I would get on with my own life. I don't really care about what they think. I have already come to my position after much consideration, prayer, study and God's dealings. Why would people imagine I would change my position after reading their opinion. We each must walk our own road. I don't know why people even feel the need to post other peoples anti-UR opinions. They don't mean anything and have no power over the truth we already believe.

I think God is big enough and capable enough of reconciling his own feelings and emotions without my carnal opinions and imput.

I love these bananas

 :banana: :banana: :banana:
Why Christian Universalism is Wrong

By Pastor-Theologian
Posted on January 10, 2012

The Nature of God: Loving and Just

Universalism prefers to emphasize God's love at the expense of God's wrath.  This view does injustice to the wrath of God since God's wrath is seen as part of God's glory.  For example, when God reveals himself to Moses in Exodus 34 he reveals not only his compassion and his covenant faithfulness, but also his judging of the sin of the people.  To minimize God's wrath one must also minimize God's compassion, his covenant faithfulness, and his forgiveness, all of which are also seen in this divine revelation.

To say that God must practice the same forgiveness he enjoins upon us overlooks two key notions: (1) God does forgive those who come to faith in Christ, and (2) it holds God to an impossible standard in that it expects God to sacrifice one aspect of his character at the expense of another.  To say that God's love and grace will supersede his judgment and wrath is to establish priorities in the attributes of God that Scripture does not support.

It is true that 1 John 4:8 and 16 use a predicate nominative subset construction to state that God is love.  Note, however that Hebrews 12:29 uses the same construction, in the context of a discussion of God's judgment against not just humanity but the entire created order (quoting the prophet Haggai) do emphasize that "God is a consuming fire."  This means that if God is "love" as part of his essential nature, then God must also be a God of wrath and judgment, too, as part of his essential nature.

God's moral attributes are tempered by his non-moral attributes.  That is, God's love must be an infinite love.  Likewise, his justice or his wrath, or his truth, must also be infinite.  The Westminster Shorter Catechism (WSC) expresses this correctly: "Q. 4: What is God? A: God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth."  Each of these eight attributes is governed by the three states of infinity, eternality, and immutability.  With regard to this issue, both God's holiness and his justice are infinite and eternal, not just his love.  To give one priority over the other is to do injustice to the character of God as he is revealed in Scripture.  To alter these priorities to suit our own fallible notions of morality is to fashion a god simply to suit our own likings.

If one can say that we must subordinate divine justice to divine love why can we not do the opposite and subordinate divine love to divine justice?  While this is what the universalist accuses the traditionalist of doing, their accusation falls short of the mark.  The traditionalist recognizes that both God's love and God's judgments are attributes of God.  Since God is simple (in the philosophical sense) he must possess both of these attributes as part of his essential nature.  To subordinate one to the other in either direction is to throw God's nature out of balance and thus make God less than the God he has revealed himself to be.

The fact is, many of the arguments inherent in universalism revolve around the human notion of fairness which not only compels God to act solely in accordance with human understanding, it also overlooks the all-knowing justice of God by which he can judge each person in absolute righteousness since he knows all things including the human heart (John 2:24-25; Heb. 4:13).  It also ascribes to God an attribute absent in scripture.  While the Scriptures repeatedly describe God as "just," "righteous," and "holy," nowhere do they describe God as "fair," as we understand fairness.  So the EU, since he cannot see divine retribution as anything but unfair, applies human categories of fairness and then accuses God of injustice for his "righteous judgments."

But why is God unloving simply because he does not save all?  As B. B. Warfield has illustrated,[15] we might be rightfully angry with a doctor who could save everyone but didn't, but we would not necessarily be angry with a judge who refused to show mercy.  Indeed, we recognize that no criminal has the right to expect mercy and for us to demand mercy for them is overthrow the very idea of justice.

Though God has presented himself in healing terms (Isa. 53:5; Mal. 4:2), he does not present himself as such when it comes to salvation and condemnation.  Instead, he represents himself as a judge (e.g., Gen. 18:25) and Jesus claims the same authority of judgment for blessing or condemnation for himself under the Father's authority (John 5:26-29).

John 5:26-29: "For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."

The implication in this passage is that the judgment is final and there is no change in destiny.


 :dontknow: Answers, please  :Chinscratch:
Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 09:15:34 AM »
You know what the thing is LS. ALL info is in the Scriptures. Many translators messed up (on purpose). That means you basically have to re-translate the whole Bible and explain/prove what I translate it that way.
An atheist sees nothing but contradictions in the Bible. 
Catholics sees all sorts of Catholic stuff while a Protestant sees not even a Catholic hint in the Bible.
An UR sees God laying out a salvation plan in every verse while the ET only sees God shoveling more coals into the fires of hell.
A Messianic like me believes non-Messianics will never understand the Bible while the anti-Messianics believe I'm putting the Law before Jesus or something along that line of thought.

So your book, like all books on the topic, will only be of use to those who are already doubting. Or the rare person with an open mind.
Christian Life / Re: Need Help On Understanding This
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 08:48:48 AM »
The Jewish religion wasn't always monotheistic. (that started long after Jesus died)
It's not that they followed false gods, but more like they believed God had 2, can't find a good word, attributes/appearance. They believed in the invisible God that absolutely nobody ever has seen. But also a visible part that manifested Himself among man. For lack of better words binity that had a visible and invisible counterpart. Along that line of thought when we read about God's Right hand, it isn't about God at all. To simplify, God=Father=invisible, right hand=Jesus=visible

But what about the larger mass of OT Hebrew people?
My guess is that they knew little about God, just like present day Christians. But as I had to take a guess the average Jew either modern or ancient knows more about God than Christians.

coming Messiah? Who he was? What he was to do for them,etc?
AFAIK that believe was a in a state of flux. They believed in two Messiah's a suffering one and a conquering one. Not unlike Christians. Christ the Lamb that is butchered. Christ the Lion that kills all enemies.
What, imo, went wrong in spotting Jesus the first Messiah was that in their teachings He would be perfect flawless teacher that perfectly keeps and explains the Law. Jesus did just that, but when He lived they had so many additional Laws they no longer were able to see Jesus was explaining/reteaching the Law instead of constantly breaking it.
Christian Life / Re: Need Help On Understanding This
« Last post by Seth on Today at 07:31:19 AM »
Not sure if I know much about the household teachings of what to expect from the messiah, but when Jesus said "think not that I have come to destroy the law" it seemed to indicate to me that the expectation was that he would deliver them from all the ordinances, but in a certain way that he denied. But I think it's a peek into what they desired from the savior.
Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by Lazarus Short on Today at 05:08:42 AM »
JBerton and WhiteWings, you are both entirely correct.  However, what I am doing at present is only one aspect of the book I envision.  I have already written a short essay (you may have seen it somewhere in the Tentmaker forums) in which I kick out the "props of Hell."  I will probably expand on that, and have other things to say, also.  Actually, what I am posting about "no mention of Hell" will surely be attacked as a logical fallacy.  I'm just trying to cover all the bases and leave no "out" for Hell believers.
Christian Life / Need Help On Understanding This
« Last post by RonnyTX on Today at 01:09:37 AM »
I can't remember a lot of this being taught on,in the church I grew up in. That is,what the Old Testament Hebrew people knew of the Messiah,who we know,by the name Jesus Christ? I know they were taught,that He was to come. I remember Job saying,that he knew his Redeemer lived and that he would see him. But how many years and what years are we talking about,for the Old Testament Hebrew people? I know their temple and Jerusalem,was destroyed in 70ad,by a Roman army. But at about what time is it said,that God first called Abraham? Wondering too,what would the average Hebrew person back then,have been taught and known,about the coming Messiah? Who he was? What he was to do for them,etc? And I know some of them knew God personally,by what God did for them. But what about the larger mass of OT Hebrew people? What did they know about God,in a personal sense? Did God reveal himself to many people back then,in a personal sense, in a highly personal way?

Just a lot of questions and wonderings,because like I say,I don't think all that much was taught about this,in the church I grew up in. And sad to say;but I was just thinking recently,that there is surely a good part of the Old Testament,that I've never even read. And I was thinking,I surely do need to read such.

What's got me thinking about all of this now,is a question that's come up in another group. Some people wondering or saying,just what did the Old Testament people know,about Jesus Christ?

One other thing I've just remembered and need to look up again;but that's some scripture in the New Testament,that says the gospel was took to Abraham.
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