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Hi Charlie.  You may find this useful;

excerpt - "While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime.      We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ.   If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age.   There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries"'s-beliefs-regarding-universal-reconciliation/
I understand I think what you're getting at.  I believe some of these things are such "hard sayings" for our finite humanity, what we think is our "logical" mind can't understand or accept.  Thus, so many reject and "know better", or turn away from the truth and even the faith, "knowing better".  Which of course leads to shipwreck of faith and destruction - for self, and sometimes for others.

My view on such deep things is so surface, sometimes I just have to go back to what the scripture says and sort of leave it at that, with "I don't know why God chose to do it like that but He did" - so I need to trust Him.  That everything He does has a reason and is perfect ("in Him is no evil") - whether I can see it or understand it or not.  So the thing I think of here is, I wouldn't say he "couldn't forgive without", but that He "chose to do it with", i.e., the atonement.  Don't have the ready reference, but Jesus purchased us, paid the price.  By His stripes.  I believe He is the atonement.  Exactly why and what all God was thinking, I don't know.  I just believe it says He did and is. 
Welcome to tentmaker :o)

While I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ has secured salvation for all men, I would disagree with the statement all men are saved they just dont realize it yet- because the scriptures say otherwise.

Saved means "healed, delivered, made whole"(sozo-grk).

If faith is realization, then one must realize in order to receive- by grace are you saved through faith.

That healing is not accessible to those who have not believed, or realized, or been "gathered into one in Christ".

As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive-but each in his own order(1 cor 15)

As yet those who are in Adam have not been made alive- but they shall be.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- but they have not all done so yet.

I actually dislike the word saved because it has been so tied to ET doctrine that I think it has lost its original meaning and always has "from hell" attached to it in the mind. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be healed works better for me".

Christ has died for all, but until they realize it, they cannot receive the benefits of it, which is being saved/healed/restored- incorporated in Christ. The benefit is deliverance, healing, wholeness, restoration--- salvation is union with God through Jesus Christ. Becoming partakers of the divine nature, grafted into and abiding in the vine.

To me, salvation is experiential, not theoretical. It may be in the bank for you, but you cant have it till you get your name on the account.

Also, when explaining the salvation of all to other Christians, I think it is important to stay consistently in tune with the language of the scriptures.

..The sacrifice which has granted us all the remission of sins..

I've begun to think it's possible it's the fallen creature itself who requires a sacrifice.

Let's keep thinkin' about that :)

"According to the book of Exodus, Moses came down from Mount Sinai not only with the Ten Commandments, but with a long list of sacrifices that were required for righteousness before God.

Examples abound. The first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis 4 when Abel offered portions of a lamb to God as a sacrificial act. In Exodus 12, we read of the first commanded animal sacrifice in the scriptures. There we find Israel commanded to sacrifice a yearling lamb and to sprinkle blood on the doorframes to ward off the angel of death that was to visit Egypt. Most of the ink in Leviticus was used in prescribing the number and types of sacrifices required by God. Even in Jesus' life we read that there were appropriate sacrifices made for him after his birth: "They offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons'" (Luke 2.24). And as an adult, it is clear that he participated in the Passover festival, which included sacrificing a lamb at the Temple (Luke 22)."  - Home Church Network Assoc.

I get what you're saying.. God cannot possibly let sin (imperfection) go.. one little taint changes the universe.. ..but that isn't what I was going to say! - He cannot 'let' sin.. that He cannot pardon a sin without a replacement.. without payment.. atonement..  (I had better wording but forgot it!) :Chinscratch: the wages, result of sin is death, an unchangeable law and fact..?
There are also four accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, and He did NOT say to the onlookers, "You're all going to Hell," but instead said, "Forgive them, Father..."

Amen. I always wondered why Lord Jesus would say "Forgive them, Father" if he knew they were all going to be tortured for eternity anyways

      :rolllol: :LH:   :smile: haha! no kidding! (aka, absolutely!)
Hi Charlie Brown,

Great first post.  I agree that UR changes the way that we look at those who are unrealized.

Actually the change an the way that the world is viewed is one of the strongest reasons to believe in UR.

We are able to love world just as God loves the world.  Before UR it was not that easy. 

Great post.  How and when did you first start to realize UR?

What was that I didn't hear you?
Welcome Charlie Brown II      :welcome:

  I love your post !  Feeling exactly the same,
  and learning daily !!! :icon_flower:
Welcome, CB II!  I like your inclusionistic attitude toward the "unsaved."  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu:
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