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Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved / Re: John 20:23
« Last post by Pig on Today at 07:35:37 AM »
Not sure it has any UR significance but just wondering how y'all might handle John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

I don't know UR yet but:

This is a hard teaching... no even impossible without Christ:

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
2. All sin is against God
3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God.
4. Love is absorbing sin
5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.

1. The primary message of the Bible and the Book of Life is that God alone is God. He is holy.
The essence of original sin is that Eve chose to act instinctively, putting her flesh above the word of God.
The result was more object lessons to say that God is separate/holy.

2. All sin is against God.
When David had stolen a man's wife and had him killed, he then repented saying: Against you alone have I sinned oh Lord. He sinned against God because the wife and the man belonged to God. When people sin against us they sin against God because we belong to God. That sets us free from taking offense.

3. If we take offesne at sin we make ourselves equal with God. He is the offended one, not us.

4. Love is absorbing sin.
Love is the choice we make to not take offense and do whatever possible to not let someone sin against us. If we are slapped we interpret it as an accident. If our stereo is stolen, we give them the TV so that they cannot sin against us. And if we are compelled to bake a cake, we bake two.  Sorry, so easily I am distracted and get to preaching  ;)

5. Forgiveness is repentence for not having loved.
When we realized we have sinned by making ourself equal to God by taking offense, we quickly repent by forgiving. Forgiving has nothing to do with the other person. It is me confessing to God that I have stolen his perogative. And I do what I am able so that the other has no sense of having sinned against me.

6. When we do not forgive, we have not acknowledged God as God.
When we haven't forgiven, we are still playing God, and are still in original sin.

7. The sin which is retained when we do not forgive is our own.
Jesus taught us to pray, Lord forgive me as I have forgiven them. Our sin is retained if we do not acknowlege God as God.
Bible Verses Used to Assert Not All Will be Saved / Re: Isaiah 55
« Last post by Pig on Today at 06:51:11 AM »
I've heard many ET believers use the verse that talks about God's thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways as a way to "explain" ET.  ...

Ok... I haven't explained in any detail how I arrived at the paraphrases, but here goes. This is how I read the second layer of scripture to evaluate if it has anything to do with UR or not.

1   Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You who are without the word, come to the word. if you have not the Son of Man, break him and eat his body (meditate upon it).  Buy heavenly and earthly grace without silver because no one is asking. This riddle uses three different meanings for buy.

Simply come.

2  Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

Why do you spend money for that which is not the body of Christ? and your labor for that which is not fish (the word of God)? Listen to me and think on the Kingdom of Heaven (the good things coming Heb 10:1) and let your soul delight in the incarnate Son of God.

3  Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Hear my voice (though you don't understand) and come to me; and your soul shall live. and I will make an everlasting covenant with you , even the sure mercies of my beloived. 

From this we discern that the sheep hear his voice, and come to him. But who hears the voice of God? The trumpet call? Don't all men hear the final revelation of God?

4  Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people

Christ was given to reveal the Father to the people, and make him a leader and commander. (He guides us in the flesh and spirit... he is Lord).

5  Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

He shall call a people who is not the bride, and people who are not the bride shall be quicken in life in thee because of the Lord your God, and for Christ; for Christ has glorified you.

This is suggestive that there is a bride and those who are called who are not the bride. I don't understand it yet.

6   Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Seek him ToDay.

7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Prepare the way of the Lord by repentance, and return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him and abundantly pardon.

How does one 'return' to the Lord? It is implied that he was once with the Lord. When was this? Paul has correctly deduced from this an/or other such passages, that he was once alive without the law, and then the law came and he died.

    Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Who returns to the Lord?

    Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This does not distinguish between good and bad spirits of men. The spirit of man SHALL return to the Lord.

8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For my purposes and works are not your purposes and works. He has made us gods of the earth, giving us what we want and allowing us to wallow in the pain and suffering we cause. (Ro 1:18ff) Our way is not the Lord's way.

9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the New Teaching of Peace is more exalted than the teachings of the world, so are my works and purposes more exalted.

10  For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

For as the earthly and heavenly grace come down from heaven and are not retracted, but teaches the world and and is fruitful and multiplying, it gives children to Christ, and grace (the body of Christ) to the one who meditates upon it.

11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

12  For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

You shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace (from the New Jerusalem, the new teaching of peace): the place you meet God will break forth in singing, and all the men of the harvest field will hang (put to death) their own works.

Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off.

Out of the cross shall come up the Son of God distinguished by his fruitfulness,  and instead of the cares of the world shall come up the hearing of the Word completed in the spirit.  And it shall become the reputation of the Lord that the fruit of the cross will remain.

Yeah, I know it sounds crazy. But I have replaced words with metaphor and replaced words with correlated ideas from other scripture.   If you don't see the connections, I am happy to answer it.

Does Isa 55 teach eternal damnation?  No. It has several hints of UR.
Welcome.  Be blessed.
Hellbusters Hallow / Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Last post by rosered on Today at 05:52:18 AM »
The real question is what is the objective reality of שאול. But it is all over the OT.

   Hi Bob  ,,       For me ...Death reigned  in the old because  everyone   is  very  dark/ ignorant   of God
 fear of the unknown   , unseen , a low place , the pits
  Death  swallowed up the lives 
  Because Life is "  a presence  thing "  it is all around us ,but  mostly unnoticed or more of," taken for granted ."

 Your quality of Life , I recall when very small child how a death  effected me  personally and how it got into my head   , by a thought that had never entered  my mind before that...
 And how grief and pain become apart of "life " from that point on  .... and how life is fleeting
 And than the   questions , the  thousands of  questions
 Who is God ..   etc.
« Last post by Seth on Today at 05:36:32 AM »
I am 71 years old and was raised in a legalistic hell fire and brimstone environment.  I can't ever remember sitting around a camp fire in my youth and not staring into the flames and trying to imagine what it was to burn forever.  I rebelled against the church in my teens but after years of alcohol abuse and two failed marriages, I gave in and returned to the church.  While I assented  to most of the teachings of my church, I continued to be troubled by the doctrine of hell and everlasting torment of the unbelievers, because that is what I thought the Bible taught.  I prayed continually for my unbelieving family members but was always in fear them dying without receiving Christ and the thought of my unsaved children spending eternity in hell horrified me.  I had heard plenty of sermons ab out prayer and that if we asked anything according to his God's will, He would do it.  I began to ask myself if it was God's will that my family be saved and found plenty of scripture to convince me that it was God's will, so I began to ask God for the salvation of my family according to His will.  I spoke with other Christians and told them that I believed that all of my family would eventually be saved because it was God's will and and I was asking for their salvation according to God's will.  Most listen sympathetically to me, but would always remind me that everyone had a free will and if they rejected God's offer of salvation, there was nothing that God could do about it.  Some even tried to comfort me by telling me that when I died and went to heaven, the memory of my unsaved children would be erased, like that would make me feel better.  Approx three years ago I began my quest to find out what the Bible actually taught about eternal hell.  I was surprised to find a large community within the church that rejected this doctrine.  It's been three years since my journey began and I am happy to say that my eyes have been opened to the truth found in God's holy word, that God loves sinners and that He will not be satisfied until all his children have been found.

Welcome.  :dsunny:
« Last post by Dandelion on Today at 03:57:43 AM »
Hi, Donna,

Glad to meet you. I hope we get to share many, many discussions, together.  :welcome:
Hi Kevinq,

I have little idea what you are speaking of....which means I will learn much from you.

Welcome.....I hope we get to share many thoughts, here.  :welcome:
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