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It really depends on how the son spends his inheritance, right?
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Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.

I agree the message of the Gospel should be delivered the same way.
To the rapist who has no shame
and to the rapist that has bag loads of shame,
and to the immature man with naughty thoughts.
All require the message of Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.

When a believer feels shame is it the adversary messing with their mind
to distract them from Christ.
Or is it a result of the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin.
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Either one of us could have a belief on what Paul immediately felt. But neither of us would deny that Jesus first brought awareness of sin to Paul's attention in their encounter. The first words out of Christ's mouth was "why are you persecuting me?" I have pointed out scriptures where Paul indeed believed himself to be the lesser of the Apostles for his persecution of the church.

It's therefore a completely reasonable thing to do, if this is the model you use for the Gospel message, to say "Why are you molesting children? Why are you murdering people? Why are you raping women? REPENT and be baptized and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

The awareness of sin has always been part of the Gospel message. If nobody has an awareness of sin, nobody has a reason to repent of it. In fact, this is what got Stephen killed. He took them to their own past and showed how stubborn they were traditionally, and how they are stubborn today. Then they killed him. His entire speech was based on their history with disobedience.

Whether or not a rapist actually FEELS shame is neither here or there with regard to the message. I maintain that a rapist who feels no shame after his sin is shown to him is probably a sociopath. But it's clear to me that the Gospel message contains the conviction of it.
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 Seth Says
I never said that shame itself is the answer to sin. The Gospel message Peter preached was REPENT and be baptized.

If a rapist does so without shame, when will he repent?

 Nobody repents of something they have no shame about.

I don't think Paul was ashamed of what he was doing.

The Spirit of God came upon him and he did a complete 180 (repented).

You believe that the Holy Spirit uses shame to bring someone to repentance.

Does the Holy Spirit use shame to help the believer in their walk.
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That's very good Seth! A very good summation! :smile: :smile:

.. :Chinscratch: how to be free to be strong in ones convictions without causing division.. i believe in the 'end' it will be a beautiful tapestry.. a blend of all true convictions..

truths to me, and for me, take two forms.. that which I believe from within, and that which I've learned from an outer source.. It's not that all outer source isn't accurate and can't become an inner conviction or that it shouldn't!.. but I think conviction comes from the first.. when within one's own heart and mind which we think of as from the Lord.. and we surely hope it is! I think often humans think in terms of either, or, when more accurately it is "and"..
         :smile:
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The word "dogma" was used as a response to my comment about how there are certain understandings, or teachings, that are the differences in paradigms of understanding. The word "dogma" is a highly emotionally charged word because it calls to mind Inquisitions and excommunications and church legalism.

But the bottom line, when you really look at what a dogma is, it's a belief that is held by an authority to be without question or doubt (incontrovertible). Putting aside the meaning of authority as with a church official or government, we are all authorities internally as to what we believe, I believe EVERYONE on this board have personal dogmas.

Is Christ come in the flesh? Yes or no? Are you willing to say no? I think not, because you know what spirit says no. If anyone holds ANY belief that they think is absolutely true, then that would be a personal dogma. Nobody would put it that way, because again, the word "dogma" has a bad brand, because of its relationship to church authority and abuses of the past.

I wouldn't use the word "dogma" either, but the issue brought up by Simon was whether we should commit to belief in absolute truths even if such committal necessarily would represent a division, at least in terms of belief. I never said division between people (ie love and friendliness), but if ANYONE holds to an absolute truth, the logical necessity results that he also holds that the opposite is absolutely false. That's a natural division in understanding, and I don't think anything is wrong with acknowledging it, which is why I agree with Jabcat.
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One of the reasons for the confusion of aionios fire I believe can be traced to the manner in which spiritual things are discerned:

And I think the lesson I pull from that is that man's way leads to suffering, while God's way leads to life.

   :iagree:
 
        :Chinscratch: and to my way of thinking, collapse... "judgment begins in the house of God.." ? :Chinscratch:
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Marie, I think a more accurate translation is: "And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 14:11) because even they will be saved at the consummation of the eons.

oh yes! no doubt! I'm thinking it's the memory of the lesson of this life (the futility and folly of wandering away from God).. which memory, I believe is what will rise up "for the eons and the eons" - thanks for the translation, it makes more sense than the memory/lesson rising up (lasting) for an age and an age..
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 Something  spoke this morning  clearly   ,  saying   ,  We have  it  turned  around "
 
 We are not to build  our brothers and sisters up in the Lord  Jesus Christ  ,
  but to build up the Lord  Jesus Christ in our brothers and sisters   !

   wow! that is so true!! yet I never thought about it that way!  :dsunny:


("dogma")

Here is a definition from websters: : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted




   ...did the denominations form by rejecting, rethinking dogma..? But then it's funny how they went and created their own set of dogma.. some old, some new..

One thing for sure.. "hell" is very entrenched! Isn't that odd? A "stronghold" for sure..

I think of untruths strongly held, as strong delusions.. sometimes (usually?) ridiculous! but with enough thread of truth to hold the fabric of it together..?

...the greatest ones in the world: [where did they come from??]

hell (profoundly changes the perception of God! :sigh: )

evolution as to origins (most of the world's strongly held untruths rest on this one?)

death as another dimension of life (imo anyway) -- which makes a place of eternal punishment necessary - i spent some  time years ago investigating the original source in history of fire and the underworld

no reconciliation/repentance possible after death..

law mixed with grace needed

I'm sure there's more.. (just thinking out loud! God bless!)

I suppose we all want a set of truths.. a framework of reality.. I know I do! :)
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Discussions on Universal Salvation / Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Last post by rosered on Today at 08:21:22 PM »
One of the reasons for the confusion of aionios fire I believe can be traced to the manner in which spiritual things are discerned:

1 Cor 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


When we take spiritual (the words of God) and compare them to natural, confusion will always ensue, and also suffering, which I believe the doctrines of ET bring upon the churches. And I think the lesson I pull from that is that man's way leads to suffering, while God's way leads to life.

 
  :iagree:   Bro S !     
 I always wondered why Jesus said Tell no man    . when he went about healing the sick and afflicted   in some cases   and      I know it was opposition 
 
   until He was      to be on that Cross      and after,,, its TELL THE WHOLE WORLD   everything you see  , and heard    !! 
 
  Just really beginning to grasp the power of the CROSS OF CHRIST     :HeartThrob:
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