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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by eaglesway on Today at 11:49:29 AM »
Hi WW,
   I was just making a comment about the difference between sheep and goats as types in scripture. Also, I would disagree that sheep can be translated "just as well" as goats or cattle. My reason for that is that the purpose of translation is to communicate the mind of the speaker from the language being trasnslated into the language being read- not to include "all possible meanings" of a particular word, thus obscuring the original.

IMO the speaker, being the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, is speaking of sheep in a positive light and goats in a negative light, for the express purpose of making a distinction, a distinction that is naturally important, since it is the Holy Spirit making it.

Thank God He is redeeming all :o), but nevertheless- there is a reason for the distinction, as it pertains to life in Christ, or it would not have been made.
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 09:41:01 AM »
Sheep can be led.
Goats also. Nomads had goat flocks for millenia.

Anyway that was not what I was talking about.
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Welcome Central - **FIRST POST MUST BE MADE HERE / Re: Hi There :-)
« Last post by eaglesway on Today at 09:11:26 AM »
The Greek "ekklesia," accurately translated "ecclesia," originally had a secular connotation. An example of that can be seen in the attachment. You can see the AV (Authorized Version or King James Version) translates it the same as the YLT (Young's Literal Translation) in that verse.

ekklesia may have had a secular connotation among the Greeks, but I don't believe it has a secular connotation in the scripture.

Eph 1:19-23 That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church(ekklesia), which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Jesus is Head over a spiritual body, the heavenly assembly- not a secular one.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church(ekklesia) of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Thayer's Greek 1577

ἐκκλησία, ἐκκλεσιας, ἡ (from ἔκκλητος called out or forth, and this from ἐκκαλέω); properly, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; so used
1. among the Greeks from Thucydides (cf. Herodotus 3, 142) down, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating: Acts 19:39.

2. in the Sept. often equivalent to קָהָל, the assembly of the Israelites, Judges 21:8; 1 Chronicles 29:1, etc., especially when gathered for sacred purposes, Deuteronomy 31:30 (Deuteronomy 32:1); Joshua 8:35 (Joshua 9:8), etc.; in the N. T. thus in Acts 7:38; Hebrews 2:12.

Strong's Concordance

qahal: assembly, convocation, congregation
Original Word: קָהָל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qahal
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-hawl')
Short Definition: assembly

Esther 8:11 Wherein the king granted the Jews which [were] in every city to gather themselves together(qahal- קָהָל),
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In order to be reconciled, imo, the being must be sentient. There are other verses that must be considered. The gathering together of all into one in Christ, as has already been shared, there is no "things" in the greek. It is simply 'pas'.

In someplaces the translators added "all things", or ""all men, or they translated pas into "everything"- with no consistency it seems to me. I really don't care how far into the creation(flies, mosquitoes, etc.) the restoration goes, but really, I think the emphasis of the scriptures is on sentient beings.

I don't think plants will be resurrected. I don't think every chicken or bird or rodent or roach will be resurrected, but that is just my opinion :o) The earth was made for man, for us to dwell in at at God's pleasure. As a result of the fall, corruption and chaos entered in. As a result of the new creation- all chaos and corruption will be undone. I have confidence that whatever we will be, and the scripture clearly says, "We do not yet know what we will be", the creation within which we dwell will be awesome and wonderful and beautiful- as iour God has already shown us in this corrupted creation which, nevertheless, declares the glory of God.

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork".

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse".
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by Seth on Today at 08:47:48 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".

 :thumbsup:

Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by eaglesway on Today at 08:38:12 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 08:26:28 AM »
A little more about goats:

I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)

GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT


While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.

Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A  kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.

Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.

So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.


Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 07:16:15 AM »
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery....
True. But
a] Jesus is a shepherd with divine healing powers.
b] Put out of misery means dead. Not burn them alive.

Quote
but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Lot's of translations are not very exact. For example, to my best knowledge, when we read about a sparrow the Bible itself writes about a little bird.
Jesus is said to be a lamb. But if you look up that word (even in a regular lexicon) it means something like small domestic animal kept by people. In other words when we read sheep it could just as well mean goat in most (all) cases. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goats. People always seem to thing goats represent the demonic forces or something like that. But the reality is that God also accepted offerings of goats on His altar. But He was quite picky because under no circumstance He accepted, for example, pigs.
Just search for goat in the Bible and see how often they are mentioned. Just as worthy animals not as something bad. They even got sacrificed during Passover.

Exo 12
5 A flock animal, a male without blemish, a yearling, shall be to you. You shall take from the sheep or from the goats.
6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.

Anyway, I can PM you a free book that tries to figure out Jesus was the lamb or goat of God. No really conclusive answer but the book shows that in many cases sheep can just as well mean goat.

Back to the sheep on the right and goat on the left. If think it can also be read as sheep on the right and YOUNG sheep on the left.
Old sheep are wise. Wise as having good knowledge of God's things. Young sheep need teaching. There is a thread on this somewhere on this forum. Again no conclusive proof. Simply because certain words has such a wide range of meanings, nothing can be proved with them.

But what all of the above proves is:
a] It's possible goat can be young sheep.
b] Goats are not God's way of saying something is utterly evil. It's church that gave goats that meaning.

 :2c:
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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by WhiteWings on Today at 06:54:55 AM »
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
There is a difference between not being chosen and being eternally lost. Ever noticed a group get resurrected and the next group gets resurrected 1000 years later after His millennial kingdom.



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Judgement and Punishment / Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Last post by Seth on Today at 04:54:14 AM »
i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....

Yes exactly. And the reason they get worse is for the problem to become more obvious and the desire for salvation will be born. Once repentance occurs they enter into the city and receive life. It's the same for everyone. This is how I see it.

In fact according to Romans 7, this is why God gave the law, for sin to become exceeding sinful and then the sinner will see it and desire a savior. This is why we need to not go back under the letter, because it's not for salvation but for the revelation of the problem. The Holy Spirit (water of life) is salvation from sin.

:dsunny:
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