Author Topic: The lost son and lost sheep parables  (Read 1478 times)

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Offline UniversalSceptic

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The lost son and lost sheep parables
« on: December 27, 2014, 09:39:34 PM »
How do ETer's twist these two parables to fit with the Hell doctrine.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 09:48:16 PM »
ET view:
The lost sheep was never found. The sheep refused to follow the shepherd. The sheep died before it was found by the shepherd and lost it's chance of salvation. The lost sheep was saved but the the other 99 sheep were eaten by wolves while the shepherd was away. And then the formerly lost sheep died of grief because all his friends were dead  :laugh:

Many lost sons never return home.


My view is that those parables are not separate but lets call it a big salvation teaching.


That one sheep couldn't find the flock. Perhaps didn't even tried too. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.

The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on its fate.

The prodigal son sort of rejected his father. He chooses to be cut off. The way he spends his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road completely destroyed him financially. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No, he was extra happy when his son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.


Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So no matter how many things Father lost on the wide road; He'll eventually finds them again.

So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be acceptable. But when when all those facts are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....

A Savior is born!  :banana:



1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 10:06:14 PM »
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.

Offline UniversalSceptic

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 11:00:55 PM »
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.
How can they justify the 100 sheep though as a small minority of mankind.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM »
They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
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Offline UniversalSceptic

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2014, 03:15:48 AM »
They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?

Offline Tom

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2014, 04:08:58 AM »
I think "the lost son and the lost sheep" both show that God loves all and that none will remain lost forever. I agree that those who don't believe Colossians 1:20 assume the parables are concerning the "flock of believers." I think they all believe only some who are lost will be found (saved), but I think, depending on who you're talking about, some believe all were never intended to be saved and others believe God is not able to save some because man's so called free will overcomes God's will which is crazy. That's Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Universalism.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3,4)

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

Scripture does not say those who are lost suffer torture in fire forever, only that unbelievers will experience the second death (Revelation 21:8), but death will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). So nobody is lost forever because all those who are dying will eventually be immortalized.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Those who believe in torture in fire forever are simply deceived by orthodox doctrine supported by forgery in the translation of scripture. All is out of God being operated through God's will, and all will literally return into God (Romans 11:36). God's ultimate plan is to be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28), and that will be accomplished at the consummation of the eons.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2014, 09:02:27 AM »
About the flocks....

I believe the 2 flocks, my flock and that other flock, are the Northern and Southern Kingdoms.

Judah and Benjamin make up the Southern kingdom. All other tribes make the Northern kingdom. The Northern kingdom never returned from exile. Jesus was part of the Southern kingdom. His flock.

Jesus also said the other flock/kingdom will eventually listen to His voice and the two flocks have one shepherd. North and South gets reunited. Isa 11:12

So my view is that salvation is only for the people that are part of the two (reunited) flocks. Jews.  :eek:

The other Northern flock is huge because it was 10 kingdoms. When Jesus lived the other flock was pagan to the core. Simply because it was assimilated in the nations it never left. But still Jesus claimed that flock will be reunited. I think that flock is best known as Gentiles. Modern day Jews, are searching for the lost 10 tribes in history records, linguistic research but also through things like DNA. The short conclusion is that those 10 tribes have spread the globe. Mostly concentrated in the Christian nations. A large part of Christianity (the other flock) was born/originates from Europe. The people of Europe founded America and took Christianity with them. But even the native Americans show 'traces of Jewishness' before the first colonist set foot on their soil. Similar story for Australian. So while the lost tribes may look as a setback for God because He lost a huge part of His people it seems to have turned into His advantage big time because the other flock has grown to massive size.

The thing with mixing people is that they start to share blood(lines) and then ancient adoption laws come into play. Of course everyone without as single drop of Jewish blood is accepted into the flock if he/she becomes a Bible believer.

I don't have divine insight, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if right now a vast part of the world is part of the two flocks. And the remaining sheep are free, even invited, to join the united flock.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2014, 10:17:57 AM »
They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?

IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.
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Offline Seth

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 06:33:23 PM »
They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?

IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.

 :iagree:

Offline sheila

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2014, 10:41:05 PM »
  I agree with ew on what he has presented.   but I do see another perspective of how it could be an et vs ur.  if you consider all in Adam[son of God/sheep of His]  sent out of

  the garden d/t self-indulgent[partake of tokogae] and   seeing them far off...went forth to meet them[reconcile to Christ] prodigal's return thus being all men concluded in the

judgement...all men concluded in the parable..lost son[lost in Adam] found in Christ...just as we have all bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall we all bear the image

  of the incorrupt.

     ps.  99 righteous....there is none righteous..no not one!..so..the 99 sheep are found 'righteous' only in that Christ has them in His care[laid down His life for them]

Offline rosered

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 02:11:40 AM »
 :goodpost:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Eduard

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2014, 02:51:44 AM »
They say that God will save only believers who repent or that he will only save those in His flock and not the rest. They also twist other passages to say that All actually means just "all believers" or that God is the Savior of all men, THAT IS, of those who believe.

It just depends how you're reading these passages. When I had the fear of ET I could never see these passages that spelled out UR, I think there are many believers in this situation.  :2c:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2014, 04:58:57 AM »
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.

But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11

In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.

I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.

Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline UniversalSceptic

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2014, 07:37:39 AM »
They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?

IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.
But there is one critical different. When the prodigal son comes back, the other son is resentful. That to me symbolizes the anger of the "elect" towards an unreprentant sinner who is allowed to enter Heaven. After all, the Pharisees walked around passing judgement on others and I see it so much on youtube. Religious people love to pass judgement on atheists, and Universalists.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 08:39:28 AM »
I don't see the older brother as ETrs myself. I see it as a child of God who gets religious, self-satisfied and self righteous- could be ET or UR or whatever. The prodigal, to me, would be any ambitious young believer who bolts with his/her inheritance in order to go "start their ministry" and winds up iin the ditch.

Gentiles were without inheritance, as Paul states, "Separate from the household of God, outside the promises, without God in the world". So I don't believe the prodigal symbolizes the Gentile church either.

Altho there ARE many deeper themes to be plumbed in the parable, I think it is a mistake to try to make everything speak to UR. I think their are UR people in the prodigal son and UR people in the older brother- Likewise for ETrs some in the prodigal, some in the older brother. We all stray at times. We all think we are ready for something we are not ready for sometimes. To me, the prodigals problem was PRESUMPTION and IMMATURITY. He went off like a loose cannon and got learned. Or you could even say 'burned" LOL, like in his own lil lake of fire where he got wise and humble and willing to wait and serve "Everyman will be salted with fire" :o)

In my view, some of the parables are 'wisdom parables' touching on universal themes of life and the journey into the kingdom of God, or out of it.

There are enough simple, bold, clear statements in the word declaring the salvation of all, that I don't need to work to hard to press anything into the mold if i don't feel like it fits- but that is only my opininion.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline dajomaco

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 03:37:53 PM »
Walking the narrow path.
One prodigal walks the path of self-destruction.
One prodigal walks the path of self-righteousness.
The middle of the path is the way.
Narrow as the edge of a sword.
Neither looking to right or the left.
The line between self-destruction and self-righteousness is humility,

May I walk in humility with Jesus. I hope so.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »
 :thumbsup:
Walking the narrow path.
One prodigal walks the path of self-destruction.
One prodigal walks the path of self-righteousness.
The middle of the path is the way.
Narrow as the edge of a sword.
Neither looking to right or the left.
The line between self-destruction and self-righteousness is humility,

May I walk in humility with Jesus. I hope so.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 07:27:03 PM »
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.

Yes, that is correct, as the Revelation states that God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations, IIRC.  The interesting thing to me is that the goat nations do not seem to be rejected from the commonwealth of the Kingdom.  They may well have a different status, but ALL are God's, otherwise God cannot become All in all.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 07:34:23 PM »
Where in Revelations does it say God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations?
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2014, 10:35:29 PM »
Where in Revelations does it say God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations?

Oops!  Matthew 25:32-33.  My bad.  :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Eduard

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 10:02:20 AM »
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.

But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11

In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.

I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.

Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted  :dontknow:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline rosered

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 04:36:27 PM »
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.

But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11

In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.

I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.

Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted  :dontknow:

  I agree with you that many are still "stuck in Babylon "    that being prisoners   
Remember that  Israel was  for 70 years that to me is symbolic of    a lifetime  on the earth
 
 Every knee will bow /surrender     and tongue confess JESUS IS LORD!!!
 THE CROSS   made Him the   power of GOD  to  be  the   MASTER of the dead and the living    till God be all in all  :HeartThrob:
 LORD of lords and KING of kings   the   TOTAL AND    COMPLETE AUTHORITY   /HEADSHIP
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #23 on: Today at 03:59:06 AM »
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.

But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11

In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.

I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.

Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted  :dontknow:

Yes, they are ignoring a lot of things. The nature of God. The many scriptures that testify to messiah redeeming all. The incongruity of the idea that God would destroy most everyone He created, much less torment them forever.

I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
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Offline bushy

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Re: The lost son and lost sheep parables
« Reply #24 on: Today at 09:57:06 AM »
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."


It does seem like it but there are people that seem more compassionate than me but will not have anything to do with checking out the truth of the salvation of everyone. Like most of my own relatives. I guess it's just not the right time yet.