Author Topic: What were you before UR?  (Read 1591 times)

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Offline legoman

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What were you before UR?
« on: June 16, 2009, 08:14:20 PM »
Hi all,

I'd like to do a somewhat informal poll.  What were your beliefs before UR? For example:

- Arminian (God wants to save everyone but unfortunately some people won't choose Him)
- Calvinist (God only loves His chosen and specifically chose the rest for eternal torment)
- Open theist (God wants to save everyone, and is operating everything, while respecting our free will, to acheive the best possible result - the future is NOT yet written in stone)
- Other

Myself I would have been Arminian with some dabbling in Open Theism, but to be honest I didn't critcially examine my beliefs too much, because I couldn't quite square them away.  I pretty much just trusted God would work it out... sometimes I would think if I prayed hard enough God would listen to me and save my heathen friends.  Most of the time I didn't really think about it at all cause it made my head hurt.

I am really curious if there are any former Calvinists here.

Peace.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 08:26:39 PM »
Other.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 08:29:00 PM »
Other.

Other - being Athiest?

And are you UR now, or still athiest, or both?  :winkgrin:

BTW There are no wrong answers here.  :Sparkletooth:


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 08:40:12 PM »
Do you accept doubtonist as an answer? :thinking:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 08:42:09 PM »
Do you accept doubtonist as an answer? :thinking:

LOL.  That would fall under "other", I guess.  But I would need a definition for full marks.


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 08:52:45 PM »
Roman Catholic.
One thing about that is that I never knew about the rapture.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 09:00:52 PM »
Do you accept doubtonist as an answer? :thinking:

LOL.  That would fall under "other", I guess.  But I would need a definition for full marks.
It's hard to write down things that you don't know.....
I started with nothing.
Now I think there very well could be something.
But I also think that's just because of self-hypnosis.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Doc

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 10:47:35 PM »
I was some form of Calv-Arminian, dispensational futurist, pre-trib pre-mil rapture. That's what I was raised with. Then God began to show me UR, and I then began to question everything doctrinally.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sven

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 07:50:13 PM »
Quote
I am really curious if there are any former Calvinists here.

I almost became Muslim, I still have a strong fatalism, I never did believe in hell, but annihilationism was for me the most rational doctrine.

martincisneros

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 07:55:55 PM »
What did I believe before UR?  The same thing I believe right now.  I'm still Word of Faith.  Perhaps 10 times more/worse now than before because of the Concordant translation.

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com

Shadow

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 08:09:12 PM »
I reluctantly believed in ET, I have not arrived at UR yet,and have reclassified myself as an agnostic theist (I came to the realization when I joined CARM, that I could no longer deny the inevitable, I was no longer a christian, if indeed I ever was one, I have also changed my status on forums I joined as a christian, to non-christian), as I cannot accept the ET doctrine under any circumstances, I am hoping that UR is the truth, that one day I'll have the confirmation thereof, my main problem is I am unable to see an all loving God who loves mankind unconditionally

I will keep searching, maybe one day things will be better than they are right now.......

And I don't believe annihilation is so bad, I'd rather not exist, than be in heaven if there is such a thing as an everlasting hell, but malachi 4.1 seems clear that the wicked will no longer exist

Quote
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:20:57 PM by Shadow »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 10:18:06 PM »
I reluctantly believed in ET, I have not arrived at UR yet,and have reclassified myself as an agnostic theist
Every big journey starts with a little step.
You are still doubting but in a certain way you are not. Your journey is away from ET and towards UR.
Even deciding to make a journey is reclassifying yourself.

Quote
(I came to the realization when I joined CARM, that I could no longer deny the inevitable, I was no longer a christian, if indeed I ever was one, I have also changed my status on forums I joined as a christian, to non-christian), as I cannot accept the ET doctrine under any circumstances,
I know it's just my own human reasoning but I look at it like this.
God created everything. Dicatated 3000 pages of Bible to explain His plans and His feelings toward certain/all things.
If God sees Himself as the superior loving being but almost none (UR) see it that way; I would think that God rather would have that people don't believe He exists than having His loving character twisted to the exact opposite He tried to explain in the Bible.
I wonder what a hateful warrior-god looks like when a loving Father-God tortures 95% of His childeren in a ET type of hell.


Quote
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Lots of fire in that verse. But literal fire? And.... the root and branch will be burned up not burn forever.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 10:52:57 PM »
willieH: Hi Lego... :hithere:

Cool thread!  Sorry if my portion is too long, read what you will, it is my personal journey to the SALVATION of ALL (ur) ...which actually could be a book not just a post... (after all, I AM 63 years old --  :laughing7:)

So here it is --  :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:

My journey began in the SDA church, ...moved out of it after a few years because God revealed to me His ONENESS (SDA's believe in the "trinity")... It marked that even though I didn't know it at the time, ...I was willing to leave fallacy behind as I sought the truth...

After which I wandered in and out of 7th Day churches for a while...

Went to the Seventh Day Church of God for a few months, and though it had many sweet people, it was more like a funeral service than a Celebration...  :pitiful: soon we left there,

Had affiliations for a short time, with Assembly of God... and grew weary of the "tongues" thing which appeared to be their central attention... and (I don't "judge" them, just was uncomfortable with them), but IMO -- distracted from CHRIST and brought attention to themselves --

My mom & sis attended the Salvation Army, and my wife and I began attending their services, and were well recieved in spite of the knowledge that we played music in "bars"... and stayed there for close to 20 years, until we grew so VERY  tired of the "trinity" and distasteful "Hell" teachings... (never could get it in my heart that GOD would DO such a thing to His precious and created beings)

One day... through all this, alone and by myself (wife was at work) I came to God amidst His nature (overlooking the Spokane River), and tearfully confessing my weaknesses, and lack, I asked what this vagabond journey of mine was all about... No answer came out of the sky... but one DID occur in my heart...

Without really knowing why, ...I placed my Bible on the ground, opened up to 2 Peter 3:9 and said to Him... "If I had ONE WISH Lord, it would be that YOU get YOUR WISH, as it is WRITTEN here... that when all is said & done, that NONE perish... and that ALL come to Repentence... including me..." 

To this day, I believe that the ALIGNMENT of the HEART with the TRUTH of UR, is that which CALLS one OUT of BABYLON... for it SEPARATES us from ALL other believers... regardless of denomination, and resultingly, ...we become the objects of PERSECUTION and REJECTION ...BY... the PEOPLE of GOD, just as the JEWS (CHRIST's own PEOPLE) persecuted and REJECTED Him... continuing...

I went home, and almost INSTANTLY, different verses began to "pop out" at me, as if they had never been there before (which of course, they were!  :mblush:)...

I went on the internet and began to discuss this with others at a discussion site called "the Mars Hill Forum"... Suggesting to them, that Hell was not a truth, and that ALL would be saved eventually in the Masterful Plan of the Almighty, which is PERFECT...  to which, immediately (by these "so-called friends") I was promptly entitled a heretic... and began to be shunned by them...

Afterwards sentimentally, touching the first base that my wife and I had touched, we went back to the very same SDA church in which we began (in spite of their postional teachings of Annhilation, trinity, and their "prophetess" -- EG White)

After a short time, again we moved on... and have now been "unchurched" for many years... I do not forsee involvement with any more "churches", even though I love all those within them, dearly...

My beliefs having expanded in many ways, and the unlearning of several things occuring with that as well as new revelations along the way...

I never swallowed the "millennium" thing... even in the churches I went to... And as I said, have been riding on the "YHVH is God alone train", almost since my walk's beginning.

Never believed in the "Rapture" either... Unlearned "Hell"...

 :idea2:  Here are some of the revelations I have had since gaining the revelation of UR, (which probably most will disagree with -- oh-well): 

(1) God's Foreknowledge is His Sovereignty, which reveals His Children IN the Knowledge of G & E -- and progresses as the History of Mankind as noted BY HIM -- BEFORE it BEGAN -- ALL "choices" of men are predetermined to BE made as they are made.  We are about HIS AGENDA and REACTIVE to Him, not the opposite which the church proposes... Him dealing with OUR AGENDA and REACTIVE to Us...  :rolleye: 

GOD "foreknows" ALL... therefore ALL occurs according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of those events and choices     -- Rom 9:11 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Matt 26:24 --

(2) That GOD's "reward" is the Service He ordains in us    -- Matt 25:23 -- Luke 22:26 --

(3) That Salvation is HIS calling and work ALONE, and is NOT ASSISTED by us in any way -- He deals out the Faith, which is AUTHORED by Him, which is then nurtured by His WORD, which encloses the child in His Loving and Saving arms    -- Heb 12:2 -- Rom 12:3 --

(4) That it is in hearing TRUTH that His [called] "Sheep" are KNOWN by Him    -- John 10:27 -- Matt 7:23 --

(5) That HE is working ALL THINGS both negative and positive -- Jer 18:4 --  as He "creates" the knowledge in His Children which are MADE in His image (that image, along with all other things, also REFLECTS the "knowledge")       -- Gen 3:22 --

(6) That ETERNITY is not a "from NOW-ON" proposition, rather that it ALWAYS IS --

(7) That TIME is a "classroom" of sorts... in which we gain YHVH's "Knowledge of G & E" --

(8) That the current forms of Christianity compose BABYLON, from which God calls His PEOPLE (called ones) OUT    -- Rev 18:4 --

(9) That NO WORK of GOOD is authored by ANYONE but CHRIST (the WORD of YHVH)    -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 --

(10) That FREEDOM is created in men, by the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST -- In them... and that the WILL of man is that which ENSLAVES him to sin    -- Gen 2:16-17 -- Gen 3:6 -- James 1:14 --

(11) That the Children of God have ALWAYS BEEN, for He IS ALL in ALL -- (not needing or requiring "TIME" and it's manifestations, in order to BE WHO and WHAT He IS)   -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 --

(12)  That the book of "Revelation [revealing] of JESUS CHRIST" is symbolic and Spiritual (NOT at all literal) as it so names itself -- Rev 1:1 -- and that it speaks of CHRIST as revealed to HUMANITY in general as well as to each INDIVIDUAL.  (In other words -- the 7 "churches" are in the course of each human being, as well as present in the course of the History of man.) --

(13) That "satan" as proposed as a "BEING" is the creation of the imagination of MEN... and in fact is nothing but the ADVERSITY which translates to the ability IN MEN to DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD, and thereby exposing EVIL as a reality, and part of the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH --

(14)  That THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE in which we are each IMMERSED (baptism), and in which CHRIST was tried    -- Rev 3:18 --

(15)  That The GOSPEL when it is presented IN TRUTH, is exclusively PEACE for it is named to be such... which contains ABSOLUTLY NO "news" which is NEGATIVE... For PERFECT LOVE, "casts out" FEAR and TORMENT    -- 1 John 4:18 --

(16)  That "CONTEXT" is the demand of Theological and RELIGIOUS men, and though it does have value, the WORD of GOD is NOT enclosed by this demand... it is FREE to teach, and its PRINCIPLES can stand IN and OUT of CONTEXT...  NO command concerning the THEOLOGICAL demand of "CONTEXT" is found in the WORD --

:hithere:   ***   ***   ***   I said I would add further comments, here are a few   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:


(17)  That there is NO COMMAND to teach "HELL" in the Bible -- and there are NO EXAMPLES of it being taught by the Apostles whom CHRIST instructed to teach "whatsoever He COMMANDED":

Matt 28:20  TEACHING them to OBSERVE all things whatsoever -- I HAVE COMMANDED YOU...


If in fact they were "commanded" to teach HELL, ...where are the accounts of the "TEACHINGS" they did?  :dontknow:

None in the book of Acts which is the "Early" account of GOSPEL going out to the world, nor is there ANY mention of HELL in the writings of Paul & John, nor is there SPECIFIC teaching of HELL in ANY of the other letters written to the Christian community by the Apostles...  :dontknow: ...if THEY (who HEARD Him first-hand) did not "teach it", ...why should we?  :dontknow:

(18)  The GOSPEL is about PEACE... it is named so -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- and GOD is named so as well -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2 -- not to mention the entire PLAN and its result is PEACE -- Col 1:20 -- so WHERE does all the communication of NEGATIVITY within the spreading of the "GOSPEL" find its birth?  Torment, Fear, Dread, ...what GOOD NEWS is in these?  :Chinscratch:  What "PEACE" is in these?   :dunno:

:omg:  Men (Christians) who are FORGIVEN their sins (in which they did NOTHING, other than to confess themselves and CHRIST) Are bringing a program (they call the "GOSPEL") which ASSIGNS other than PEACE to other men! (torment, fear, dread) Whattupwidat?  When Scripture says that LOVE in its PERFECT way, CASTS AWAY such things, and those who FEAR are not made PERFECT!  When will "Christians" wake up?

(19)  The JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... CHRIST plainly noted this, yet His "followers" have designed a different observation than these stated WORDS of the Savior... proposing it to be AFTERWARD... As if JESUS "didn't MEAN what He said"...  :mshock:  What part of NOW is so hard to understand? 

Do we not accept that NOW -- in THIS DAY -- is the "DAY of SALVATION" ...or that NOW is the "ACCEPTED TIME" in which we shall be "ACCEPTED"?   IMO this is just more observation which is blocked by RELIGIOUS items, still remaining in the "closet" of the mind/heart!

When JESUS stepped OUT of the TOMB... from DEATH to LIFE... did we all not ALL step out WITH HIM?  Why teach the things of DEATH -- which include FEAR and TORMENT? 

If I am pointing a GUN at you, thereby THREATENING YOU... are you not held in FEAR's grasp by my act?  Is LOVE present in MY ACT?  Is it PEACEFUL?  Is it GOOD NEWS?

Teaching MORE (severe) FEAR and/or TORMENT to come, ...is different in WHAT WAY?   In WHAT WAY is PEACE found in this "teaching"?  In WHAT WAY is LOVE present in this "teaching"?   :JCThink:

And if PEACE is NOT FOUND... WHEREIN is the GOSPEL really taught?  :dontknow:  ...at least, please THINK about it...  :thanks:


:hithere:  ***    ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:


:hithere:  ***    ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:

(20) -- "CONTEXT" -- Now here is an Unbiblical demand OFTEN made by "theologians" and students of the WORD

That GOD's COMMANDS and INSTRUCTION are certainly valuable WITHIN its particular CONTEXT and the applications OF that CONTEXT are in part dictated by the presence of that COMMAND or INSTRUCTION, certainly does not BIND and IMPRISON that teaching TO that "CONTEXT"...

MAN has developed by RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY, the FALSE demand of "CONTEXT"... God's WORD states:

Isaiah 28:9-10 --  Whom shall He teach KNOWLEDGE?  and whom shall He make to UNDERSTAND DOCTRINE?  them that are weaned form the MILK and drawn from the breasts... For precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, HERE a LITTLE, ...and THERE a LITTLE.

This verse is suggesting there are PRECEPTS embedded in various parts of His WORD which are PIVOTAL and which are PROFITABLE and which are found in DIFFERENT AREAS of it...  If GOD's WORD were meant to have STRICT CONFINEMENT of these PRECEPTS, then why do they appear in other areas? And in different "CONTEXTS"?

The Apostle Peter SPOKE the WORD, and created a NEW CONTEXT using information found in TWO DIFFERENT "CONTEXTS", and COMBINED the 2 ideas TOGETHER... Acts 1:20 is part quotation of Ps 69:25 and part from Ps 109:8!

Acts 1:20 -- For it is written in the book of PSALMS, -- (1) --Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein -- (2) -- and his bishopric let another take

(1)  Psalms 69:25 -- Let their habitation be desolated and let none dwell in thier tents

(2)  Psalms 109:8 -- Let his days be few, and let another take his office

Why did PETER's words appear as a WHOLE NEW portion and "CONTEXT" of GOD's WORD -- Acts 1:20 -- which was gleaned from TWO completely DIFFERENT chapters and CONTEXTS, if we are to STRICTLY keep "in CONTEXT" that which we "quote"?

I'll tell you why!  Because TRUTH is FREE... it is NOT imprisoned by the demands of MEN who study it...  It has value and stands IN and OUT of the CONTEXT it is found within.  "Thou shalt NOT KILL" is not CONFINED to Ex 20:13 or Deut 5:17 -- it can be applied and quoted as TRUTH in Any case, scenario or application.

I do not advocate that the CONTEXT in which a TRUTH appears does not incorporate that TRUTH... I say that the "TRUTH" is not IMPRISONED by that context...

carry on!  :cloud9:

:hithere:  ***    ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:


When it comes "down to it", the GOSPEL is simple -- GOOD NEWS!

That's it for now... as I might recall them, ...I'll add other observations to this list... there IS more, just can't bring everything to the "top of my head" at the moment...  :mblush:

:Peace:

...willieH   :mpardon:
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 11:33:43 PM by willieH »

Offline Doc

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 11:22:49 PM »
I find myself (under my current understanding) agreeing in the main with those points Willie. The only thing I might modify a bit is number 8, to include all forms of religion as part of Babylon.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline willieH

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 03:53:10 AM »
willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

How you been doin', man?  :dontknow:  Hope, very well!

A comment on your comment... just food for thought...  :grin:

I find myself (under my current understanding) agreeing in the main with those points Willie. The only thing I might modify a bit is number 8, to include all forms of religion as part of Babylon.

Are GOD'S People in ALL RELIGIONS? -- Maybe so...  :dunno:

I know ALL are "His people" in the end, but are the "CALLED" -- called from Buddhaism or Islam or Scientology or Mormonism? -- Again, ...Maybe so...  :dunno:

(For the moment at least) I see God is calling "His People" out of the system of Babylon which is VERY ACTIVELY via ALL forms of Media and missions, ...predominantly bringing a defiled version of the GOSPEL -- His message to the world... impersonating GOOD NEWS with BAD... disguising it by witnessing such as:  "God's LOVES YOU with a love that is beyond understanding" (which is TRUE, and GOOD NEWS), and once interest is gained in the listener, ...the FEAR of "HELL" is soon lowered upon them (which is FALSE and BAD NEWS) ...as the clincher!  :rolleye:

James informed of this: 

James 3:9-10  Therewith [the tongue] bless we God even the Father,  and therewith CURSE WE -- men, which are made after the similitude [likeness] of God... out of the SAME MOUTH proceedeth BLESSING [GOD loves you with a love beyond understanding] and cursing [ET -- unending torment of HELL] My brethren, THESE THINGS, ...ought NOT be SO.

Is not the teaching of CONDEMNATION, cursing?  Is not the teaching of TORMENTS, cursing?  Yet in general, whether ET or ANNHILATION, ...THIS is found next to CHRIST as the CENTERPOINT in their varying messages... teaching it to be JUST, and MERCIFUL, because a HOLY God is doing the "tormenting", and because we "deserve" such torment, because we DISOBEYED His commands, and SINNED... and are WITHOUT EXCUSE...  :thumbdown:

Every ONE that LOVE removes from this HARLOT system is ONE MORE that is bringing the TRUTH of GOOD NEWS to the world...  still amounting to FEW, and relatively INVISIBLE by comparison, but JESUS said this would be so -- Luke 18:8

Even then, removal is only the beginning of the process... UNLEARNING all the cursing is yet to be done in many which have "come out of her"...  You can take the man "out of the church", but it is yet another matter to take the "church out of the man"...  :help:

Actually, outside of believing that JESUS CHRIST is Lord and Savior, I don't find much agreement with ANY Christian churches or their memberships...

JESUS pointed out that MANY would come IN HIS NAME, saying that He was CHRIST, and decieve MANY... Matt 24:5 & 11

I don't think that Islamics, Buddhists, Shintoists, Scientologists, etc, ...are bringing (as) defiled a message to the world, for they are NOT coming in the NAME of CHRIST... Neither are they decieving MANY concerning Him... with such as HELL or ANNHILATION...

CHRIST didn't mention other "religions" much... But He often mentioned problems in those who were professing to FOLLOW Him... or His Father, YHVH --  :dontknow:

Yes, these various religions are indeed bringing a FALSE "RELIGIOUS" message, as are ATHIESTIC scientists with their EVOLUTION version of RELIGION...  but this is not near as DEFILED as those who have been CALLED to know CHRIST in this day, yet not only wallow in the HARLOT systems (Rev 17:5), but PERSECUTE the TRUTH... and REJECT it vehemently... Often RIDICULING it... talk once with Matt Slick... see the kind of "candy" you get from him... :rolleye:

Rev 17:8  shouts of the RELIGIOUS system which grew out of Rome and intermingled paganism, [WAS] ...then was PROTESTED [IS NOT], and yet, though this "protesting Christian" entity recognizes NOT the authority of ROME, ...she follows most of her precepts [YET IS] in one variation or another...

Notice in Rev 17:6, John speaks of ADMIRING this entity... Why?  Because it was carrying the name of CHRIST upon its banner... and would encompass 1/3 of the human race in vast numbers...

BABYLON is called "GREAT" in the WORD -- Rev 17:5 -- Rev 18:2 -- possibly because even though it is about DEFILING the truth of GOD, it still bears the name of the SAVIOR, which whether used profitably or not, is GREAT... and full of WONDER... and power...

At this time, I do believe BABYLON as spoken of in Revelation, is about the Christian church in general...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :coolsmile:
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 10:13:06 PM by willieH »

Offline Doc

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 04:04:33 AM »
I understand your point, and it's a good one. I think maybe I was thinking of the four beasts.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline legoman

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 04:37:05 AM »
Wow, good points Willie.  You wrote a lot of things that I sort of had been thinking, but I haven't seen it all laid out before.  Helps to see it all out in print.

Still not sure on points 13 and 14.

And point 17 is excellent.  We are NOT commanded to teach HELL.

On the contrary, we are commanded to teach that God is the savior of all men!
1 Tim 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.


By the way, I spent a few years in the Sally Anne (Salvation Army) as well.  Here is my sordid church history:

United Church
Maranatha
Salvation Army
Non-denominational (New Life Christian)
Lutheran
Anglican
Roman Catholic and currently still there.  I'm not RC myself, but my wife is.  Its not a strong hell and brimstone church, hell is rarely mentioned.  The priest focuses on the love of God - its all about God's love, so I can live with it for now.


Offline rosered

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2009, 05:43:29 PM »
 
  That was a great post Willie  :thumbsup:
 and good thread/question  Legoman ......
  some great posts guys!!!!  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
 for me , before UR .....
  I wondered through the valley of the shadow of death most of my childhood /life
 I Had heard about God  from very small , but never really knew Him personally till ........   the Lord decided to make Himself known /presence /Spirit  entering whithin  my being  and keeping 
a peace there that was NOT ever there before His visit . , I dont boast of it , because  the Lord has left as well , leaving me as empty  as I was  before He Came to proclaim  His child /seed
 
  that fear was over whelming , teaching me to trust in Him and not  anything or anyone else   especially in  myself  :mblush:  the school of hard knocks , learn you will !! :sigh:
 
  my sister Shelia told me of UR  about  7years ago maybe
  she brought many things  to the table   to eat  for the spiritual man/ mind
  that might grow stronger and  more  gracefully  in Spirit and truth
 
  even this site and whatever the Lord uses  to teach us His Truth /Life
 
 
 as far as  them teaching fear  with  /torment  I would say Jude   says this well ,
 
  Paul on the other hand  says [it takes both Hands of GOD to do the job right] 

  these examples   of faith , hope and LOVE !!
 
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober
Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:  Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.   

 Jesus Christ is this better thing for us open and  made known ..and perfect  :happy3:
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 


 Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 


 Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 


 Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 

 Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 


 Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference


 Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 

 Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 

 Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:48:52 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2009, 09:58:05 PM »

Sorry that I cannot answer according to your list,  before UR I was in spiritual prison and spiritually dead.

While I won't exaggerate my physical condition on this earth based on that, I now see people, myself and God  based upon life and not death.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2009, 10:09:30 PM »
When it comes "down to it", the GOSPEL is simple -- GOOD NEWS!



No need for a Tug -O- War on that one,  agree 100%      :trampoline:





Offline willieH

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2009, 10:22:54 PM »
willieH: Hey Pablo...  :laughing7:

Como esta?  :laughing7:

When it comes "down to it", the GOSPEL is simple -- GOOD NEWS!

No need for a Tug -O- War on that one,  agree 100%      :trampoline:

 :thumbsup: ... :mthumbsup: ... :boogie: ... :gthumbsup: ... :2thumbs:

...willieH  :happy3:

Offline willieH

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2009, 10:48:41 PM »
willieH: Hey!   :cloud9:

:hithere:   ***   ***   ***   I said I would add further comments, here are a few   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:


(17)  That there is NO COMMAND to teach "HELL" in the Bible -- and there are NO EXAMPLES of it being taught by the Apostles whom CHRIST instructed to teach "whatsoever He COMMANDED":

Matt 28:20  TEACHING them to OBSERVE all things whatsoever -- I HAVE COMMANDED YOU...


If in fact they were "commanded" to teach HELL, ...where are the accounts of the "TEACHINGS" they did?  :dontknow:

None in the book of Acts which is the "Early" account of GOSPEL going out to the world, nor is there ANY mention of HELL in the writings of Paul & John, nor is there SPECIFIC teaching of HELL in ANY of the other letters written to the Christian community by the Apostles...  :dontknow: ...if THEY (who HEARD Him first-hand) did not "teach it", ...why should we?  :dontknow:

(18)  The GOSPEL is about PEACE... it is named so -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- and GOD is named so as well -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2 -- not to mention the entire PLAN and its result is PEACE -- Col 1:20 -- so WHERE does all the communication of NEGATIVITY within the spreading of the "GOSPEL" find its birth?  Torment, Fear, Dread, ...what GOOD NEWS is in these?  :Chinscratch:  What "PEACE" is in these?   :dunno:

:omg:  Men (Christians) who are FORGIVEN their sins (in which they did NOTHING, other than to confess themselves and CHRIST) Are bringing a program (they call the "GOSPEL") which ASSIGNS other than PEACE to other men! (torment, fear, dread) Whattupwidat?  When Scripture says that LOVE in its PERFECT way, CASTS AWAY such things, and those who FEAR are not made PERFECT!  When will "Christians" wake up?

(19)  The JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... CHRIST plainly noted this, yet His "followers" have designed a different observation than these stated WORDS of the Savior... proposing it to be AFTERWARD... As if JESUS "didn't MEAN what He said"...  :mshock:  What part of NOW is so hard to understand? 

Do we not accept that NOW -- in THIS DAY -- is the "DAY of SALVATION" ...or that NOW is the "ACCEPTED TIME" in which we shall be "ACCEPTED"?   IMO this is just more observation which is blocked by RELIGIOUS items, still remaining in the "closet" of the mind/heart!

When JESUS stepped OUT of the TOMB... from DEATH to LIFE... did we all not ALL step out WITH HIM?  Why teach the things of DEATH -- which include FEAR and TORMENT? 

If I am pointing a GUN at you, thereby THREATENING YOU... are you not held in FEAR's grasp by my act?  Is LOVE present in MY ACT?  Is it PEACEFUL?  Is it GOOD NEWS?

Teaching MORE (severe) FEAR and/or TORMENT to come, ...is different in WHAT WAY?   In WHAT WAY is PEACE found in this "teaching"?  In WHAT WAY is LOVE present in this "teaching"?   :JCThink:

And if PEACE is NOT FOUND... WHEREIN is the GOSPEL really taught?  :dontknow:  ...at least, please THINK about it...  :thanks:

(20) -- "CONTEXT" -- Now here is an Unbiblical demand OFTEN made by "theologians" and students of the WORD

That GOD's COMMANDS and INSTRUCTION are certainly valuable WITHIN its particular CONTEXT and the applications OF that CONTEXT are in part dictated by the presence of that COMMAND or INSTRUCTION, certainly does not BIND and IMPRISON that teaching TO that "CONTEXT"...

MAN has developed by RELIGIOUS THEOLOGY, the FALSE demand of "CONTEXT"... God's WORD states:

Isaiah 28:9-10 --  Whom shall He teach KNOWLEDGE?  and whom shall He make to UNDERSTAND DOCTRINE?  them that are weaned form the MILK and drawn from the breasts... For precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, HERE a LITTLE, ...and THERE a LITTLE.

This verse is suggesting there are PRECEPTS embedded in various parts of His WORD which are PIVOTAL and which are PROFITABLE and which are found in DIFFERENT AREAS of it...  If GOD's WORD were meant to have STRICT CONFINEMENT of these PRECEPTS, then why do they appear in other areas? And in different "CONTEXTS"?

The Apostle Peter SPOKE the WORD, and created a NEW CONTEXT using information found in TWO DIFFERENT "CONTEXTS", and COMBINED the 2 ideas TOGETHER... Acts 1:20 is part quotation of Ps 69:25 and part from Ps 109:8!

Acts 1:20 -- For it is written in the book of PSALMS, -- (1) --Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein -- (2) -- and his bishopric let another take

(1)  Psalms 69:25 -- Let their habitation be desolated and let none dwell in thier tents

(2)  Psalms 109:8 -- Let his days be few, and let another take his office

Why did PETER's words appear as a WHOLE NEW portion and "CONTEXT" of GOD's WORD -- Acts 1:20 -- which was gleaned from TWO completely DIFFERENT chapters and CONTEXTS, if we are to STRICTLY keep "in CONTEXT" that which we "quote"?

I'll tell you why!  Because TRUTH is FREE... it is NOT imprisoned by the demands of MEN who study it...  It has value and stands IN and OUT of the CONTEXT it is found within.  "Thou shalt NOT KILL" is not CONFINED to Ex 20:13 or Deut 5:17 -- it can be applied and quoted as TRUTH in Any case, scenario or application.

I do not advocate that the CONTEXT in which a TRUTH appears does not incorporate that TRUTH... I say that the "TRUTH" is not IMPRISONED by that context...


:hithere:  ***    ***    ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***  :hithere:

...carry on dear friends...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 11:32:54 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2009, 11:44:32 PM »
willieH: Hi Shadow... :hithere:

I reluctantly believed in ET, I have not arrived at UR yet,and have reclassified myself as an agnostic theist (I came to the realization when I joined CARM, that I could no longer deny the inevitable, I was no longer a christian, if indeed I ever was one, I have also changed my status on forums I joined as a christian, to non-christian), as I cannot accept the ET doctrine under any circumstances, I am hoping that UR is the truth, that one day I'll have the confirmation thereof, my main problem is I am unable to see an all loving God who loves mankind unconditionally

I will keep searching, maybe one day things will be better than they are right now.......

And I don't believe annihilation is so bad, I'd rather not exist, than be in heaven if there is such a thing as an everlasting hell, but malachi 4.1 seems clear that the wicked will no longer exist

Quote
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


Who is "ALL" that do WICKEDLY?  ALL men are so classified:

Psalm 14:1-4 -- Rom 3:10-12

Shall we thereby deduce that "NONE" of the "ALL" shall "any longer" exist? 

Or, ...is it the VESSELS of DISHONOR (which performs "wickedness") is NOW revealed here, ...with the VESSELS of HONOR, yet to find REVELATION?

Rom 9:21-23

YES, our deeds in the realm of TIME are destined to be NON-EXISTENT forever... but the precious CHILD in each of us which is ALSO in the Potter's Hand... is destined to find the JOY and GLORY of the FATHER, forever...

Jer 18:4

The "marring" is part of the process dear sister... NOT the destiny...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What were you before UR?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2009, 03:48:33 AM »
 :cloud9: Same thing I am now.......son of God in the making.......revelation of an aspect of God's nature brought more of the mind of Christ and the mind of Christ is not a denomination or a label of any kind, even one that looks "good". Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor