Author Topic: Unbelief=Sin of the world  (Read 3051 times)

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goodreport

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Unbelief=Sin of the world
« on: October 21, 2012, 06:04:28 PM »
Briefly--
My current POV on SIN of the world and just a very few Scriptures that have influenced my POV.

John 1:29 ...behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the SIN of the world.

SIN(singular)=unbelief

Matthew 1:21  ...call His name JESUS; for He shall save his people from their sins.

sins (plural)= sins committed because of unbelief.


John 16
v. 8 and when He comes, He will reprove the world of sin...
v. 9  Of sin, because they believe not on me.

John 17
v. 20 neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall BELIEVE ON ME through their word.
v.  21That they all may be one; as thou Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:  THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.

John 12
v.  47  and if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 4
v.  42  ... now we believe, not because of thy saying; for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.



Offline CHB

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 07:21:06 PM »
Sin of the world=a singular, one world.

Sins of the people=plural, many.

CHB

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 08:51:08 PM »
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
(which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

The Sin of the world was unbelief.
Every person on the face of the earth no matter what or you he believes in.
Has felt or believed God had forsaken him.

GOD DID NOT FORSAKE JESUS.
It was the man of Jesus in unbelief uttering these statements.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"

Gods answer to Jesus was death.
Jesus answer to God .

IT IS FINISHED!!!

To the Glory of God, Jesus over came death and rose again.

Alleluia The Lamb Of God Slain for the SIN of the world.

Me now weeping.
   

When I first realized that Jesus died for unbelief.
I was free for the first time to believe freely.
It was not a requirement.
I was simply free to believe for no other reason than I believe.
There was no longer a reason for Hell the punishment for unbelief.
Hell completely disappeared from my consensus.
I am FREE  I am Free I am Free I am Free

Offline CHB

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 09:45:12 PM »
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.

CHB

goodreport

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 10:19:53 PM »
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
(which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

The Sin of the world was unbelief.
Every person on the face of the earth no matter what or you he believes in.
Has felt or believed God had forsaken him.

GOD DID NOT FORSAKE JESUS.
It was the man of Jesus in unbelief uttering these statements.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"

Gods answer to Jesus was death.
Jesus answer to God .

IT IS FINISHED!!!

To the Glory of God, Jesus over came death and rose again.

Alleluia The Lamb Of God Slain for the SIN of the world.

Me now weeping.
   

When I first realized that Jesus died for unbelief.
I was free for the first time to believe freely.
It was not a requirement.
I was simply free to believe for no other reason than I believe.
There was no longer a reason for Hell the punishment for unbelief.
Hell completely disappeared from my consensus.
I am FREE  I am Free I am Free I am Free


Thank you for sharing... I've done a great deal of studying on faith, unbelief, believe, etc., and had not SEEN the possibility of Jesus' words on the cross being words of unbelief...   you have given me much to ponder...along with a quote that I had earlier written in my Quotable Quotes notebook by Oswald Chambers "The Christian faith means that the historic Cross of Christ is the pinhole in actual history through which we get a view of the purpose of God all through."

I've learned that God has such unique ways to bring/to draw us to Himself...your personal testimony certainly testifies to His unique ways...  and has opened up for me yet another way to view the cross -- to praise, thank, worship our awesome God... Peace, Mercy, Grace, Love in Christ


Offline CHB

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 01:22:33 AM »
There is a question as to whether Jesus spoke these words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

I don't believe Jesus thought the Father had forsaken him because Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone." Jesus knew why he was here and what was going to happen to him. I don't think Jesus had any doubt as to whether God had forsaken him.

CHB
 

goodreport

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 02:56:56 AM »
Thank you, CHB -

I took all three of your replies to this thread to the Lord and asked Him to show me what it is that He desires for me to learn from them. 

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 03:46:08 AM »
There is a question as to whether Jesus spoke these words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

I don't believe Jesus thought the Father had forsaken him because Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone." Jesus knew why he was here and what was going to happen to him. I don't think Jesus had any doubt as to whether God had forsaken him.

CHB

Of coarse Jesus did not think God would forsake him.

The cross is for us he died for our unbelief.

Every word Jesus spoke out loud was for us.
He did not speak out loud so that God would hear him

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 07:44:16 AM »
All sins everywhere, through all time, by anybody and everybody = the sin of the world.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 09:01:49 AM »
Reformer :thumbsup:
IMO, I think Jesus only felt as though the Father had left him. Jesus knew that hanging on the cross
was his purpose for coming into the world and that the Father was always with him BUT, if unbelief is sin(and it is)
then I don't think Jesus actually believed the Father had abandoned Him. I believe he was surprised at how awful seperation from God would be as he had never experienced it previously. and yes... since scriptures says Jesus grew in knowledge, that meant he learned, which meant he wasn't born with full knowledge.
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

goodreport

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 07:42:11 PM »
Reformer :thumbsup:
IMO, I think Jesus only felt as though the Father had left him. Jesus knew that hanging on the cross
was his purpose for coming into the world and that the Father was always with him BUT, if unbelief is sin(and it is)
then I don't think Jesus actually believed the Father had abandoned Him. I believe he was surprised at how awful seperation from God would be as he had never experienced it previously. and yes... since scriptures says Jesus grew in knowledge, that meant he learned, which meant he wasn't born with full knowledge.
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.

Thanks-- reminded me of:

Heb 2:17-18  NLT
v 17  Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God.  Then He could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.

v 18  Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.


"Not only as God He knows our trials; but also as man He knows them by experimental feeling."
I'm not certain who I am quoting...I sometimes quickly write a quote in my notebook and quickly forget to write the name of the person I'm quoting.





Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 08:41:20 PM »
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.


IMO It was Isaac who found out that he could Sacrifice his only son.
I don't think God Learned the Pain of Sacrifice and Separation.

Using the combined wisdom of all wisdom in the universe, he taught
us and showed us on the Cross, that he new the pain that man has endured
by being separated from Him.
We were with him before the foundation of the earth.
We are now reconciled with Him long past the end of all ends.

The Cross was Love before the foundation.
The Cross is the foundation of Love.
Love is and was and for ever shall be.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 09:52:55 PM »
because "God is love and in him there is no darkness - none."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Online eaglesway

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 10:27:22 PM »
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.

CHB

IMO, The law is "a tutor to lead us to Christ". It makes sin "all the more sinful". It shows forth the fruits of the "sin of the world" (unbelief) by provoking the sinful(unbelieving) nature to life, manifesting "sins" that grow out of "an evil heart of unbelief".
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline CHB

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 10:39:18 PM »
Flesh and law=sin

CHB

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 11:12:17 PM »
Absolutely
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 11:30:39 PM »
Basically, the question being posed in this thread is this:  Is everyone "saved" now?  Is everyone "in Christ" now?  Well for some, this gets obviously heretical RIGHT AWAY!  And to even begin to discuss those questions you first have to define "saved" and "in Christ"... or whatever term you want to put in the quotes.  And does "saved" or "in Christ" mean the same thing? 

I'm not going to attempt to write a book and break it all down.  I have no conclusive answers.  I have come to no conclusions. 
It is something I have been wrestling with for a few weeks now.  I feel like Neo realizing what the Matrix is for the first time.

I know I am a son of God because of the work of Jesus the Messiah.  I am a believer.  I know I have His Spirit within me.  I know God is Love.

Here are a few thoughts I've had [not all originating from me, but a conglomeration of things I've read and heard from other believers]:

1.)  We need to get out of this mindset of "us" and "them".  The "haves" and the "have nots".  Those who have rejected Christ and hurt me and rejected me and so need to burn in Hell, and those who haven't rejected Christ and haven't hurt me as much, who I have to love anyway, who will make it to heaven.  Such a mindset is not peace.

2.)  Certainly and without question, something happens upon belief and realization of God's Love manifested in the Finished Work of Jesus the Messiah... we receive the Spirit and adoption as Sons... while the rest are still children.

3.)  Finally, this just isn't logical:

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.  But if you do not believe that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, then the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world doesn't take away the sin of not believing He took away the sin of the world! 

OR to say it another way:

Jesus paid the penalty for all sin, for all people, for all time, on the cross.  But if you don't believe that He paid the penalty for sin, then the sin of not believing He paid the penalty for sin, is not paid for!






 

« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 11:45:56 PM by Jeremias »

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 11:45:07 PM »
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should metanoia, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."



« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 12:09:22 AM by Jeremias »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 11:48:01 PM »
I can't remember where I heard this:
"When you get to heaven, you'll open your eyes, breathe a sigh of relief and say, "ahh, I made it."
Then you'll look around and get agitated saying, "HEY! What is he/she doing here? They don't belong."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 12:25:33 AM »
14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died the significance of that statement CANNOT be overlooked!!!; 15 and he died for all as in adam all die so in Christ all we be made alive, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one NO ONE, including believers and unbelievers according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, (why is this "anyone" suddenly thought to be believers only?  Paul has been saying NO ONE, ALL, why suddenly does "anyone" just mean believers???  If ALL have died, and we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh, well then what should we recognize them as??????  he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 what is the ministry of reconciliation Paul?that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them <--- this is what God did, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 this is a continuing sentence explaining what God did ---->For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Three things need to be addressed here:

What does the word "might" mean?

What does the word "reconciled" mean?

Why doesn't Paul say "you must be born again"?

I dunno man, the stuff I'm writing in red is scaring the crap out of me!  If they won't kill us for saying there is no Hell... they will certainly try to kill us for saying this.  I am like Neo puking.  Can this really be?

Please be kind, I am just thinking this through out loud. 

that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them   PEACE!!!!  GOD HAS DECLARED PEACE WITH MEN!!!!!!    PEACE!!!!!!!!

« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 12:45:34 AM by Jeremias »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 01:02:53 AM »
Jeremias, I see it like this;

I don't believe all are saved now.  Paul said "not all are of the faith", and there are many more scriptures about that.  All haven't yet been given the faith to believe unto salvation, all haven't as yet been spiritually re-born from above.   However, I think there are kind of 2 "sides to it". 

First "side", God sees the end from the beginning, and He established things in the heavens even from the foundation.  From the foundation, the Lamb was slain.  It was God's Plan.  For all.  Since God is outside of time, at the "end of His view", it has been accomplished.

Secondly however, He has ordained that it be walked out within time, in our earthly element, for a purpose [you know, those things we spend so much time trying to figure out :)].  So what He has declared in eternity, has "not yet been fully completed/received for us in our current experience of evil".   Currently there are still friends of God and enemies of God.  God has reconciled Himself to all through the cross, but He hasn't as yet given the all faith to believe so the all will as yet reconcile themelves to God (although God does all the initiating and accomplishing - in His timing).  So IMO, the bottom line is this;  what God has declared, is, in His timeless view.  But we're in time, and for us, things happen in an order ("each in his own order" or turn).

So, there is an elect, those called and chosen to be the ekklesia (called out ones) set aside during this period for a purpose and by God's intent, given the faith to believe in this lifetime [Sons, Saints].  Then the rest, all the rest of humankind, will be brought to Him kneeling and confessing [believing, when they're given the faith to do so] that He is Lord - each in his own turn (taught by Paul). 

One line;  the ekklesia/elect are predestined, all the rest are destined - as God will be All in All.   :2c:

I honestly don't have a clear view of why God chose to do it this way.  But IMO, it's God's Plan of the Ages - the few now, all the rest later.   :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:33:54 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 01:38:58 AM »
Jeremias, so, as I really believe the scriptures unfold what I wrote above (or at least most of it  :mblush:), I guess more conversation might be "so how does the finished work of the cross fit in there"?  There are probably books to be written about that, but a little I'd suggest is, outside of time it is completed.  And for believers reconciled to God through faith in Christ and His work on that cross, legally it's finished, i.e., spiritually reborn - a child born into the family (although there's still the work re: the soul, shaping of the will, going on into maturity, growing in grace and knowledge, etc.).  Still, even though in time we're still walking that part out, there's a higher plane and reality within which we can dwell).  I believe Paul knew his spirit was at rest and totally in God's hands, having been reborn on that road to Damascus, even though he still struggled with the flesh and needed to look to and trust God for His daily strength and grace as he matured and "ran the race, finishing the course". 

Anyway, you'll probably have some good thoughts on the finished work of the cross here...It is finished, but what exactly is finished since we're still clay on terra firma, and as believers, how can we experience that finished work in faith, grace, hope, and joy.......  Blessings.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:35:25 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

goodreport

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 02:44:14 AM »
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.

CHB

IMO, The law is "a tutor to lead us to Christ". It makes sin "all the more sinful". It shows forth the fruits of the "sin of the world" (unbelief) by provoking the sinful(unbelieving) nature to life, manifesting "sins" that grow out of "an evil heart of unbelief".

Thanks Eaglesway.  What are your thoughts on

1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY,   Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???

and,  I thought about Jesus' words on the cross "Father forgive them they know not what they do."

Online eaglesway

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 04:52:39 AM »
Paul says many things that moderate our absolute reckonings :o)

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)

Christ shined on Paul, but not until after He knocked Saul off his high horse :o) I think Saul was a zealous and ambitious young Pharisee on his way up the ladder, blind in spirit, veiled by the god of this age.
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Offline sheila

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 05:46:04 AM »
I'm with you on this Jeremias :thumbsup:  if the firstfruits are holy so too the remainder....He is not

  a respector of persons.  by His will He called out a remnant to testify and wittness....those that

  were blind to it while here on earth..have their eyes and ears opened when their spirit returns unto God

   the prostitute on the street,addicted to drugs..has a wonderful free gift laidup for her. so too,the drunk

  the insane, the offscouring and rubble of the people.

    Jesus said 'Look..the  harlots and taxpayers[despised] enter into the Kingdom ahead of you  He has

 many many faithful angels in heaven that are quite capable of teaching them[for the children of the

 resurrection are like the angels,the sons of God]. they minister up there as flames of fire..to those

  who inherit eternal life.