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Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 06:28:54 AM »
To be reconciled you need two.
God has reconciled himself to man
Man had tried to get reconciled to God'

Man can believe that there is no God,
 for man to reconcile with a God that doesn't
exist to that Man it would be absurd. 

This man was born with the stain of Adams sin.
He needed to be reconciled to God and was thru Christ.
Now reconciled. He can ENTER in to a reconciled relationship
with God.
 If he doesn't believe in God he logically can't enter into
 the relationship that God saved for him.
 God saved that relationship for him and God.

God knows he has no reluctance to Loving  that man.

That man doesn't and can't believe to enter.

 unless.

   How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g] 


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 07:19:44 AM »
The only thing is, we are not here just speaking of the ignorant, the debilitated, the offscourings. We are also speaking of the adversaries, the knowingly wicked, etc. Who is teaching the angels who are bound in chains(jude 6), in what age will their hostility be turned into adoration? By what means? The anti-Christ and the false prophet- are they just symbols- or historical figures?

Regardless of whether or not one holds to Revelation as 100 percent symbol, type and allegory- there are plenty of witnesses in the scriptures, even the testimony of our Lord, that there will be an unpleasant alternative to aionian zoe for those who reject the son of God.

It would be better that a millstone be wrapped arund your neck and you be thrown into the sea, than to stumble one of these little ones.

believers enter aionian life, those who reject the testimony of the son of God go into aionian pur/fire and aionian kolassis/correction.

Among the things we are delivered from when we are "saved", is the fear of death and the fear of judgment. IMO, The testimonies are too many to be ignored. There is great reward in serving Jesus in this age and the next, and great loss in this age and the next for standing against Him.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:26-31)

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment(aionian kolassis), but the righteous into eternal life."(aionian zoe)
(Mat 25:44-46)

To me, this is olam ha ze and olam ha ba. Olam is the word the greeks transliterated into "aion" from the Hebrew/Aramaic. Olam being not "age during" but "beyond the veil" or "the other world".

Those who go into the life/zoe of "the world to come" or punishment/kolassis in"the world to come"

Those who go into kolassis to find many or perhaps hopefully few stripes awaiting them in the form of "exposure of the secrets of their hearts" before the "one who sits on the throne" when the "tribunal is convened"- and of  this record is already kept in the conscience of every person, to be read in the presence of the Lord and the assembly of the holy ones. The one who dwells in unapproachable light will shine in such a way that every heart will be revealed and every adversary consumed, and for some, as I read the Lord, it will be a very unpleasant experience initially- altho we kno that all tribulation is for the moment unpleasant, but in the end, "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness".

The benefit of coming under the blood of Jesus is a new and living way "into the holy of holies" and the intercessions of our high priest and sin reckoned with as long as we continue in the faith and abide in the vine. That blood has already paid for the sins of all.

(IMO)It has not already been applied to every doorpost, the death angel has not yet passed over all, because it is applied when we bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Jesus. Otherwise there would be no imperative to "warn the evil man of his way". We know that as in Adam all died, so also in Christ will all be made alive, but each in his own order- first Christ, then the first-fruits, then those who are alive at His coming, then comes the end-after the last adversary, death, is nullified that God may be "all in all". As long as there is death there will be adversaries. As long as there are adversaries there will be kolassis- until every knee has bowed and until the anakephalaiomai(summing up Eph 1:10) and the apocatastasis(times of restoration of all things (Acts 3:21).

So, since God knows the secrets of the hearts, there will be many "offscourings" who will rejoice to see His face and throw off their chains. Ther will be many who say "Lord, Lord, didnt we teach in your name and prophesy and do many mighty works?" and He will say depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

Why into that PARTICULAR FIRE? Because it is the one reserved for those who knew but did not do, and those who did for their own glory- like the devil and his angels. A more intense purging is needed for those who have seen the light of Christ but refused His heart of compassion.

This is all just my opinion of course, we see through a glass darkly.



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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2012, 09:17:18 AM »
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY,   Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.

I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:24:35 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2012, 09:24:20 AM »
Jeremias, I see it like this;

I don't believe all are saved now.  Paul said "not all are of the faith", and there are many more scriptures about that.  All haven't yet been given the faith to believe unto salvation, all haven't as yet been spiritually re-born from above.   However, I think there are kind of 2 "sides to it". 

First "side", God sees the end from the beginning, and He established things in the heavens even from the foundation.  From the foundation, the Lamb was slain.  It was God's Plan.  For all.  Since God is outside of time, at the "end of His view", it has been accomplished.

Secondly however, He has ordained that it be walked out within time, in our earthly element, for a purpose [you know, those things we spend so much time trying to figure out :)].  So what He has declared in eternity, has "not yet been fully completed/received for us in our current experience of evil".   Currently there are still friends of God and enemies of God.  God has reconciled Himself to all through the cross, but He hasn't as yet given the all faith to believe so the all will as yet reconcile themelves to God (although God does all the initiating and accomplishing - in His timing).  So IMO, the bottom line is this;  what God has declared, is, in His timeless view.  But we're in time, and for us, things happen in an order ("each in his own order" or turn).

So, there is an elect, those called and chosen to be the ekklesia (called out ones) set aside during this period for a purpose and by God's intent, given the faith to believe in this lifetime [Sons, Saints].  Then the rest, all the rest of humankind, will be brought to Him kneeling and confessing [believing, when they're given the faith to do so] that He is Lord - each in his own turn (taught by Paul). 

One line;  the ekklesia/elect are predestined, all the rest are destined - as God will be All in All.   :2c:

I honestly don't have a clear view of why God chose to do it this way.  But IMO, it's God's Plan of the Ages - the few now, all the rest later.   :2c:
I think that's because things conflict if looked at it from a different angle.
a] Not everybody is saved right now because God's plan of the ages is still in progress.
b] Everybody is saved because God planned salvation for all and nothing is able to stop or even slightly delay that plan.

Maybe the best way to phrase is: "We have a 100% guarantee of being saved. Each in his own order."
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2012, 09:29:15 AM »
Anyway, you'll probably have some good thoughts on the finished work of the cross here...It is finished, but what exactly is finished since we're still clay on terra firma, and as believers, how can we experience that finished work in faith, grace, hope, and joy.......  Blessings.
Confusion due to a bad translation. It's finished ===> Paid in full.
The debts of sin, past, present and future, were paid nearly 2000 years ago.
The payment is finished. Not God's plan of salvation. That plan ends at "Father is all-in-all".
 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:09:56 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 11:04:00 AM »
Good comments Tony.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2012, 11:12:24 AM »
BTW when I write plan I don't really mean plan. I just don't know a better word.

Plan sounds like a possibility instead of an absolute.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2012, 01:23:24 PM »
Good comments Tony.   :thumbsup:

Agreed!  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

goodreport

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2012, 03:38:17 PM »
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY,   Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.

I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.


Thanks WW
 


« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 03:54:32 PM by goodreport »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2012, 03:39:16 PM »
With man, a plan is just a possibility.
With God, it is an absolute.

"Man makes his plans, and God laughs."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY,   Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.

I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.


Thanks WW... some more food for thought... opposite interpretations/applications to various real life situations... I wonder why?
Why????? I can only guess.
I think they wanted to serve God the best way they could. Gradually more and more laws got added. Interpretation got more and more strickt. Just to rule out every possibilty of breaking His command. But that simply got out of hand.

I compare it to the police force. Police is to serve and protect. Double the police force and it gets even better. But at a certain point in gets to much. It turns into a police state.

So my guess is they kept "improving" until the opposite of the original goal was reached.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2012, 07:03:21 PM »
right...just as the Gospel of the salvation of all mankind has been turned into eternal torment for the most

  in the churches.  it is due to the 'sin' in the flesh..that is what taints it.

   If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing

  holy? no..but it defiles the Holy.  the letter of the law...that kills destroys......

  then you have Jesus..that Holy thing..and a woman that touched His garment..and became clean...

   and there you have the Spirit of which there is no law against.

  the law was written for the lawless[those without love to constrain their loveless acts]..not the righteous/spirit

  or Love..love has no such constraints..nor can it be regulated by law..for it fulfills and exceeds it through

  the essence that it is.

  when you findyourself judging law against the righteous..you find yourself condemning an innocent man

 LOVE CONSTRAINS LAWLESSNESS.........BUT LAW CAN NOT CONSTRAIN LOVE[mercy]

  LOVE/grace IS AS STRONG AS DEATH[ministry of=LAW COVENANT]

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2012, 07:14:49 PM »
If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing

  holy? no..but it defiles the Holy.  the letter of the law...that kills destroys......
(Rom 11:16) And if the first fruit is holy, the branch is also. And if the root is holy, the branches are also.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2012, 07:48:35 PM »
Offscourings; are the scum or dregs of that, which has been purified.

So, since God knows the secrets of the hearts, there will be many "offscourings" who will rejoice to see His face and throw off their chains. Their will be many who say "Lord, Lord, didnt we teach in your name and prophesy and do many mighty works?" and He will say depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

IMO people who are loud and out spoken about there hate for Jesus and his followers.
These are the people who only see the scum and dregs of that which has been purified.
When they see him who has been truly purified and see his face they will rejoice.

They will rejoice!

May God richly bless us to be his face to these people TODAY.

I pray


Offline lomarah

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2012, 08:12:34 PM »
right...just as the Gospel of the salvation of all mankind has been turned into eternal torment for the most

  in the churches.  it is due to the 'sin' in the flesh..that is what taints it.

   If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing

  holy? no..but it defiles the Holy.  the letter of the law...that kills destroys......

  then you have Jesus..that Holy thing..and a woman that touched His garment..and became clean...

   and there you have the Spirit of which there is no law against.

  the law was written for the lawless[those without love to constrain their loveless acts]..not the righteous/spirit

  or Love..love has no such constraints..nor can it be regulated by law..for it fulfills and exceeds it through

  the essence that it is.

  when you findyourself judging law against the righteous..you find yourself condemning an innocent man

 LOVE CONSTRAINS LAWLESSNESS.........BUT LAW CAN NOT CONSTRAIN LOVE[mercy]

  LOVE/grace IS AS STRONG AS DEATH[ministry of=LAW COVENANT]

Amen!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline sheila

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2012, 08:41:01 PM »
and so too,even all the fruit..which He demands[they are the fruit of the hands of God and Christ..even

  the salvation of All men]  and this is ALL THE FRUIT...WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN.........

    walk live by faith and hope in what is yet unseen/but very much a reality in the spirit


Offline lomarah

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2012, 09:45:42 PM »
 :dsunny:


(Wow WW, love love love the new avatar!!)
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2012, 11:56:45 PM »
Very good points being made here by all.

In my personal life, I feel like I am having a season like none I've ever experienced before.  God, who is MY FATHER, is helping me see His non-human, "other", Amazing Love for me, and for people.  I have seen signs and a couple wonders.  I don't know why this is happening.  But I feel like I am being stretched beyond my limits with regard to Love.  Like He is showing me His love for me, and showing me how He loves others too.  All these words like, amazing, astonishing, wonderful, mind-blowing... they just don't explain it.

I think a big problem in this whole discussion is how we define "saved" (and similar terms).  We are bringing all kinds of biases and definitions to it.  Then we are trying to understand scripture (the NT) that 2/3 of which was written in a language which no-longer exists anymore and is easily mis-interpreted and mis-translated.  I'm not saying we should toss it away.  Not at all!!  But we're trying to use the scriptures and match it up with our biases and definitions.  Toss in a good bit of old fashion human fear and what do we have?  How about 41,000 Christian denominations!!!!!  Toss in some more good ol fashion human survival instinct and we have crusades, religious wars and untold innocents caught in the crossfire.  Ugh.

All of this is motivated by a HUMAN-NEED to determine... who's in and who's out.  The good and the bad.  The Christians and the non-Christians.  This kind of thinking is destructive!!  (I am preaching to myself as much as anyone else hahaha  :doh:)

Who is "saved"?

I was saved 2,000 years ago by Jesus the Messiah.  His life, His death, Him Resurrected.  I believed it when I heard of God's love for me as demonstrated through His Son Jesus.  God did something for me that I COULD NEVER DO FOR MYSELF.

Isn't the message of the Gospel really this:  God has saved the world!!  Believe it!!

Example:

My wife cooks my favorite dish and plans a beautiful romantic dinner because she loves me.  But if I'm convinced that she is doing all that stuff because she is secretly planning to murder me after I fall asleep at the end of the night, will I want to eat the meal, relax with her, enjoy her company and intimacy??

Is Christianity at large representing a God who is Love or a God who people should be afraid of?  Are we willing to look at ourselves and our biases truthfully?  Are we willing to lay down the mantle of determining who's in and who's out and what each group looks like or is "supposed" to look like and just Love people the way God Love's people?  Think about that.  God Loves people in a way the "in" crowd of the 1st century NEVER DARED DREAMED HE WOULD!!!

We need to be messengers of Peace!!  Love!!  Reconciliation!!  "Dear friend, God has made peace with you even while you may hate Him.  You need do nothing.  He has made Peace.  He has done it all.  He loves you so much.  Accept the fact that He Loves you.  If you do not believe me, ask Him.  He will show you."





« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 12:02:48 AM by Jeremias »

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2012, 02:57:51 AM »
 :iagree: I believe .Preach it bother.

Offline lomarah

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2012, 03:12:25 AM »
Very good points being made here by all.

In my personal life, I feel like I am having a season like none I've ever experienced before.  God, who is MY FATHER, is helping me see His non-human, "other", Amazing Love for me, and for people.  I have seen signs and a couple wonders.  I don't know why this is happening.  But I feel like I am being stretched beyond my limits with regard to Love.  Like He is showing me His love for me, and showing me how He loves others too.  All these words like, amazing, astonishing, wonderful, mind-blowing... they just don't explain it.

I think a big problem in this whole discussion is how we define "saved" (and similar terms).  We are bringing all kinds of biases and definitions to it.  Then we are trying to understand scripture (the NT) that 2/3 of which was written in a language which no-longer exists anymore and is easily mis-interpreted and mis-translated.  I'm not saying we should toss it away.  Not at all!!  But we're trying to use the scriptures and match it up with our biases and definitions.  Toss in a good bit of old fashion human fear and what do we have?  How about 41,000 Christian denominations!!!!!  Toss in some more good ol fashion human survival instinct and we have crusades, religious wars and untold innocents caught in the crossfire.  Ugh.

All of this is motivated by a HUMAN-NEED to determine... who's in and who's out.  The good and the bad.  The Christians and the non-Christians.  This kind of thinking is destructive!!  (I am preaching to myself as much as anyone else hahaha  :doh:)

Who is "saved"?

I was saved 2,000 years ago by Jesus the Messiah.  His life, His death, Him Resurrected.  I believed it when I heard of God's love for me as demonstrated through His Son Jesus.  God did something for me that I COULD NEVER DO FOR MYSELF.

Isn't the message of the Gospel really this:  God has saved the world!!  Believe it!!

Example:

My wife cooks my favorite dish and plans a beautiful romantic dinner because she loves me.  But if I'm convinced that she is doing all that stuff because she is secretly planning to murder me after I fall asleep at the end of the night, will I want to eat the meal, relax with her, enjoy her company and intimacy??

Is Christianity at large representing a God who is Love or a God who people should be afraid of?  Are we willing to look at ourselves and our biases truthfully?  Are we willing to lay down the mantle of determining who's in and who's out and what each group looks like or is "supposed" to look like and just Love people the way God Love's people?  Think about that.  God Loves people in a way the "in" crowd of the 1st century NEVER DARED DREAMED HE WOULD!!!

We need to be messengers of Peace!!  Love!!  Reconciliation!!  "Dear friend, God has made peace with you even while you may hate Him.  You need do nothing.  He has made Peace.  He has done it all.  He loves you so much.  Accept the fact that He Loves you.  If you do not believe me, ask Him.  He will show you."

Tabernacles! It's amazing isn't it?? Has He put His intense love for someone in you, is that what you are experiencing? He did that to me (and my friend, He's done it to her quite a few times though, she's more "seasoned" lol) and it's amazing!! (This is one of the reasons I have been so frustrated with all of what is going on in my life with the fear of rejection, etc, because He has already shown me so much, I feel like I should be beyond all of this. I've just been going through a rough patch, lots going on right now with friends and family, lots of abandonment issues and things. It annoys me that it's affecting my spiritual life this way though. Anyhow, blah blah blah lol.)

He just keeps giving and giving and giving though, through all of it. He's awesome.  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2012, 03:28:46 AM »
God is love.  We are His ambassadors.

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.  2 Cor. 5:20

It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God.  He gives us faith to believe on Him as Savior.  Each in his own order.  Without that gift and His gift on the cross, we cannot do this;

.. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;  Rm. 10:9

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  Rm. 10:14
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 03:56:24 AM »
God is love.  We are His ambassadors.

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.  2 Cor. 5:20

It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God.  He gives us faith to believe on Him as Savior.  Each in his own order.  Without that gift and His gift on the cross, we cannot do this;

.. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;  Rm. 10:9

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  Rm. 10:14


Blessings to you dear brother -- timely reminders for me as I ask the Lord to show me what to do with all that He has given me:  faith to believe on Him as Savior and having been given much...  I pray for all of us to be attentive to what He would have each of us do.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 04:00:20 AM »
 :HeartThrob:  Amen
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 08:28:16 AM »
The message of the gospel is, "God has saved the world, believe it." However, if we define the salvation of the world as 'the restoration of all things(apocatastasis) spoken of by all the prophets and sages from the foundation of the world"(ac3:21), we realize that, as Paul said, the mystery of His will is an administration of ages accomplishing, in the completion of times, the summing up of all things(anakepalaomai) in Jesus Christ(ep1:10), including the adversaries, until God be all in all.(1co 15:23-28)

The tyranny of language confuses our efforts to communicate this beautiful truth as semantical arguments detract from our oneness.

The apocatastasis has been accomplished from the foundation of the world in the mind of God, yet Jesus said, "It is finished!" from the cross, IN TIME.

As Peter said , "He was foreordained from the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you".

So also, full and final restoration awaits the completion of seasons appointed by the Father. For this reason we all groan, and the entire creations groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of God, AFTER WHICH the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.(Rom 8:17-25)

There are those who have TASTED this salvation, this deliverance, this healing and those who have not. These are still dwelling in the valley of the shadow of death. Their minds are still veiled by the god of this age and altho their salvation will MANIFEST AT THE APPOINTED TIME- our Lord exhorts us to warn them to flee the wrath to come and embrace this freely given deliverance that has been offered to all. This exhortation is UNDENIABLE without denying the veracity of the scriptures themselves- which some do and that is their right, and I do not judge them but I heartily disagree with them.

These then who have received this grace, ARE PASSED FROM DEATH INtO LIFE. If some want to call that "saved"- they are only speaking as the apostles and our Lord spoke. Every creature "will be saved". We are still "being saved", on many levels, by our sanctification in the spirit of grace.

Unfortunately, the word "saved" has come to mean, "not have to burn forever" rather than "restored to aionian zoe"- but I would rather redefine the word for people than disagree with the scriptures.

In My Opinion it is important that we don't strangle each other with semantics. Since some of these terms have been so abused I understand the reactions over their use, but I think it is a bad idea to disregard the terminology of the scriptures lest we LOSE OUR ABILITY to interact with sincere seeking Christians who are coming here seeking answers.

So I a rejoice that all men "will be saved". I rejoice "I am being saved". I rejoice that I "was saved", and that the manifestation of that salvation, planned from the foundation of the world, manifested in the world through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.I rejoice that it was initiated in my life by the grace of God when I believed and that it is progressive in me and in the whole cosmos. It will culminate, for me, at the appearing in glory of the Lord Jesus, in my resurrection, even tho it was "finished" at the cross- and even tho the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

I rejoice that God has called me to participate in the salvation of all, to offer hope to the downtrodden, to warn the wicked in love and humility, knowing that they are all appointed to salvation in His time.



« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 08:44:17 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unbelief=Sin of the world
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 08:52:07 AM »
I not sure semantics are always wrong.
I think people on this forum have roughly the same belief.
If we want to iron out the details I think semantics are needed.
There come a point we can no longer say "it means about this, let's discuss".
As a side note: I wonder more and more if Greek is suitable for discussions that rely heavily on semantics....
(I have thoughts about Greek that might not fall within the forum guidelines.....)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...