Thoughts on the advesary

[Nathan]

I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.

[Molly]

That Lucifer stuff is well silly.

If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.

You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave.  If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET.   You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some.

[Molly]

I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.

That means you are Satan.

It also means I should keep my distance.

[Nathan]

YES!!!!  That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!!  Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!!  To the other!!!  My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone!  That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan!  He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness.  Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED.  Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL.  Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.

That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD.  But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be.  My spirit has to keep my mind in line.  You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all.  What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking.  That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts.  Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth.  That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about.  Our minds ARE the adversary nature.  They "are" satanic in nature. 

so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!

I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way.  But for me, you walked right into it.  That's exactly what I've been saying.

[shawn]

YES!!!!  That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!!  Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!!  To the other!!!  My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone!  That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan!  He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness.  Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED.  Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL.  Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.

That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD.  But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be.  My spirit has to keep my mind in line.  You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all.  What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking.  That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts.  Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth.  That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about.  Our minds ARE the adversary nature.  They "are" satanic in nature. 

so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!

I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way.  But for me, you walked right into it.  That's exactly what I've been saying.

As you know, I haven't agreed with you in the past on this issue.  But, much of what you are saying makes sense to me.

[Nathan]

Awesome!  Be careful . . . you may be out numbered here though . . .

[CHB]

Well, here is my take on the whole thing.

Satan is a spiritual being that God uses to accomplish his purpose throughout the universe.

Everything in the universe is based on good and bad. We have a good God and a bad or evil Satan and why shouldn't it be that way since the whole universe is mixed with good and evil? This is how God planned it from the beginning. They,...God and Satan... are not in any warfare, God is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless God gives him the authority to do so.

I don't believe Lucifer is Satan, there is just no proof, also it says Lucifer was a MAN, king of Tyre.

I believe God planned every detail from the beginning and nothing can thwart his will, including Satan, because he is doing what God has given him to do.

If our minds are Satan then wouldn't this apply to Jesus also?

I would like to see proof from the Bible saying that Satan is our minds, there is no such scripture. There are too many scriptures showing that Satan is an individual .

It says that Satan ENTERED into Judas, if Satan was our minds wouldn't he have been there already?

Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that Satan was their father if he was their minds? This doesn't make any sense. Why didn't he just say you think with a Satan or adversary mind? Why did Jesus tell Satan to "GET BEHIND ME"?  Why didn't he say "get out of me"?

CHB

[Nathan]

Some of your questions can't be answered in the way that you would like.  For one, you're still blending the two together when you ask why didn't Jesus say "get out of me" instead he said "get behind me".  Actually, that should be my question to you.  Why didn't Jesus say "leave me"?  Instead it was merely "get behind me".  The same exact thing he told Peter when Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus going to Jerusalem.  It's an order to alignment.  It's a picture of taking captive one's thoughts.  "Get behind me" is a command for that which is before us, to get behind us, it's a command of submission.  Same thing that our spirit is to do to our thoughts . . .take them captive.

[Molly]

Some of your questions can't be answered in the way that you would like.  For one, you're still blending the two together when you ask why didn't Jesus say "get out of me" instead he said "get behind me".  Actually, that should be my question to you.  Why didn't Jesus say "leave me"?  Instead it was merely "get behind me".  The same exact thing he told Peter when Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus going to Jerusalem.  It's an order to alignment.  It's a picture of taking captive one's thoughts.  "Get behind me" is a command for that which is before us, to get behind us, it's a command of submission.  Same thing that our spirit is to do to our thoughts . . .take them captive.

The implication is that our thoughts are not our own.  They are the fiery darts thrown at us by the enemy for which cause we are to take every thought captive at the gate and examine it as friend or foe, as one might do in a military encampment.  Paul uses military language when describing this.  The thoughts are coming from 'out there,' and, as a result, their origin must be determined before they can be let into the camp--hence they are taken captive and interrogated.

[sheila]

  exactly,Molly

[micah7:9]

I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.

Said that years ago. 

[micah7:9]

Well, here is my take on the whole thing.

Satan is a spiritual being that God uses to accomplish his purpose throughout the universe.

Everything in the universe is based on good and bad. We have a good God and a bad or evil Satan and why shouldn't it be that way since the whole universe is mixed with good and evil? This is how God planned it from the beginning. They,...God and Satan... are not in any warfare, God is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless God gives him the authority to do so.

I don't believe Lucifer is Satan, there is just no proof, also it says Lucifer was a MAN, king of Tyre.

I believe God planned every detail from the beginning and nothing can thwart his will, including Satan, because he is doing what God has given him to do.

If our minds are Satan then wouldn't this apply to Jesus also?

I would like to see proof from the Bible saying that Satan is our minds, there is no such scripture. There are too many scriptures showing that Satan is an individual .

It says that Satan ENTERED into Judas, if Satan was our minds wouldn't he have been there already?

Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that Satan was their father if he was their minds? This doesn't make any sense. Why didn't he just say you think with a Satan or adversary mind? Why did Jesus tell Satan to "GET BEHIND ME"?  Why didn't he say "get out of me"?

CHB

WELL SAID! Glory

[micah7:9]

This is how, in my walk at this point, I have been given to understand the opponent and adversary.

The adversary, the serpent, the devil, and the dragon are our enemy. Man fights the enemy with spiritual warfare. We are instructed, after being called by the Father to His Son Jesus, and are re-born of the Spirit, to be aware of this enemy. Because the enemy is a spirit with powers allotted to its existence, to war as a roaring lion, a thief and a murderer, seeking whom it may devour.
Dust is the main meal, we are that dust, man is the quarry. Man was formed with spiritual weakness, for God's purpose, mans basic instinct is to disobey, miss the mark, man can not help himself. The enemy a spirit, and has been given the power and the ability to infiltrate the mind (where emotions have their beginnings) and work its (bad)spiritual abilities.
I reason that when mans mind was awakened by the voice of the enchanter, the prognosticator( a predictor) and when Gen 3:6  And, when the woman saw…" the work of the enemy began.  The adversary as the serpent enchants, as the devil(traducer) one that exposes to shame or blame by means of falsehood and misrepresentation.
The dragon is in the sea(mass of humans) its in the rivers, which I reason are channels that are used to infiltrate.
We as souls re-generated born from above have been given power(dunamis) to overcome the enemy when we HEAR. Jesus said He did nothing of Himself, it had to come from the Father. So it is with us, that power to overcome only can be used when we HEAR from our elder brother.
The enemy exists and is to be reckoned with.

[WhiteWings]

I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.

Look what God said to Adam--

Where art thou?

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.


What am I saying?  The King is shocked and horrified  if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.

Imo the King wasn't shocked and horrified at all. The knight was talked to by the King as a little child. Asking retorical questions to make the child reflect on his/her own action. Every verse in which God speaks that has a question mark is a retorical question. Do you for example think God was unable to find Adam and Eve and therefore had to ask where the hid? Did God ask they ate from the tree because He didn't know?
My view is simple. It's impossible for an all knowing God to ask questions other than rethorical ones or with the intension of forcing the person(s) spoken to learn from the question.
So Godly questions basicly are statements.
 

[Molly]

I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.

Look what God said to Adam--

Where art thou?

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.


What am I saying?  The King is shocked and horrified  if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.

Imo the King wasn't shocked and horrified at all. The knight was talked to by the King as a little child. Asking retorical questions to make the child reflect on his/her own action. Every verse in which God speaks that has a question mark is a retorical question. Do you for example think God was unable to find Adam and Eve and therefore had to ask where the hid? Did God ask they ate from the tree because He didn't know?
My view is simple. It's impossible for an all knowing God to ask questions other than rethorical ones or with the intension of forcing the person(s) spoken to learn from the question.
So Godly questions basicly are statements.
 

I used to think that.  I don't really think that anymore.  The text doesn't say they tried to hide from God.  It says they hid from God.  That means they could.  When they fell into flesh, they were cut off from God.  Kind of like out of mind, out of sight. [We later see this with Jesus on the cross who asks the same question:  Where are you?] The qiuestions he asks them serve no purpose other than show God's surprise and horror.  I think feeling cut off from God can go both ways without some type of intervention.  Hence the priesthood was developed, starting with Abel.

[redhotmagma]

Molly, you really think people can hide from God?  Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word.  For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things.  He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil. 

Did the serpent sneak into the garden?  interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?

[Molly]

Molly, you really think people can hide from God?  Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word.  For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things.  He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil. 

Did the serpent sneak into the garden?  interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?

I just quoted that verse lol.

But, the saints are not hiding from God, they are searching for him.

Yes, I think we can hide from God and he can hide from us.   I don't see it as a permanent situation, though.

Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence. 

If we are not in relationship with God, we are the [walking] dead.

The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission.  Hence, the punishment.

[sheila]

whew!  some very fine discernment here.     I think that is why He sent His son 'the word of God,come in flesh' to seek that which was 'lost'...

    you shall be called searched for,sought after. Lost sheep....you once were alienated  and enemies Col 1;2 .

    I think the 'mind of the beast" alienates us from communion/relationship with Him

[redhotmagma]

If we could actually be hidden from God then we would cease to exist.  He is in all things, and upholds all things.

[WhiteWings]

Sure they can hide. And yes the text clearly states they did. The real quetion is how effective is it against a God with limitless skills?
YHWH's intelect, knowledge and powers are only limited by 2 stone age people hiding behind a bush.... Something like that?

Never saw a small child playing hide and seek. They walk 2 feet away and hold their hands before their eyes. The child is now completely hidden from the parent that has to seek. The parent plays along and searches the whole house. "Mollly, Molly where art thou?" Needless to say Molly was very happy having outsmarted her parent.
 

[Molly]

whew!  some very fine discernment here.     I think that is why He sent His son 'the word of God,come in flesh' to seek that which was 'lost'...

    you shall be called searched for,sought after. Lost sheep....you once were alienated  and enemies Col 1;2 .

    I think the 'mind of the beast" alienates us from communion/relationship with Him

 

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
--Rom 14:9

[micah7:9]

If we could actually be hidden from God then we would cease to exist.  He is in all things, and upholds all things.

 

Absolutely, when even in our darkest time in this life, be that fear, loss of a loved one, trying not to be with God, backsliding, it makes NO difference, HE is ALWAYS  there. To think or reason that God is not right where you are all the time is not understanding His Word.

Psa 139:7 Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence?[/u]
Psa 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there."
Psa 139:9 Should I wear the wings of dawn, Should I tabernacle in the hindmost sea,
Psa 139:10 :boyheart:Your hand would guide me, And Your right hand, it would hold me."
Psa 139:11 If I said, Surely darkness, it snuffed me up, And night is belted about me,
Psa 139:12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You, And the night, as the day, is giving light; Darkness is as light."

[micah7:9]

That Lucifer stuff is well silly.

If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.

You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave.  If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET.   You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some.

"You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave." Molly

Now I dont nothing about souls to the grave thing, but THE BIBLE, actually it was the LORD GOD who spoke.
Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 

" If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET." Molly

Who is talking about ET, I dont even believe in ET?

" You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some." Molly
You are referring to:
Psa 16:9  Therefore, hath my heart rejoiced, and mine honour exulted, Yea, my flesh, shall settle down securely;
I read this as to saying, my flesh[body] will go back to dust.

Psa 16:10  For thou wilt not abandon my soul to hades, neither wilt thou suffer thy man of lovingkindness, to see corruption:
And, thou wilt not abandon my living[ life] to the unseen[the grave]

Psa 16:11  Thou wilt cause me to know, the path of life,—Fulness of joys before thee, Pleasures at thy right hand evermore
And this I would reason is the resurrection.

[micah7:9]

YES!!!!  That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!!  Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!!  To the other!!!  My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone!  That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan!  He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness.  Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED.  Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL.  Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.

That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD.  But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be.  My spirit has to keep my mind in line.  You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all.  What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking.  That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts.  Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth.  That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about.  Our minds ARE the adversary nature.  They "are" satanic in nature. 

so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!

I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way.  But for me, you walked right into it.  That's exactly what I've been saying.

"so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!""

I write this with peace in my heart.

Nathan there have been many who have come to that conclusion, that our carnal mind is the adversary[satan], that cannot be so. For that to be true Jesus would have had a carnal mind and He did not, for He knew NO SIN.

Now the adversary will use our minds to work out the evil alloted to the enemy. I reason that our mind is a stronghold, when man is called and is reborn, man is a new creature[all things become new] with the mind of Christ which will mature be complete as we grow in Him and He in us. Now.... the enemy has to attempt to overcome mind of Christ. Which will be of no avail.

[micah7:9]

Molly, you really think people can hide from God?  Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word.  For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things.  He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil. 

Did the serpent sneak into the garden?  interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?

I just quoted that verse lol.

But, the saints are not hiding from God, they are searching for him.

Yes, I think we can hide from God and he can hide from us.   I don't see it as a permanent situation, though.

Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence. 

If we are not in relationship with God, we are the [walking] dead.

The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission.  Hence, the punishment.

"Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence." Molly

God did not send Cain anywhere, Cain went out from the Face of God.

Gen 4:14 Behold, drive me do You out today off the surface of the ground, and from Your face shall I be concealed....
Gen 4:16  And Cain goeth out from before Jehovah

"The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission.  Hence, the punishment." Molly

So what you are saying is that the serpent got past God? Out smarted the Creator! God the Creator lost control of His creation, just enough for the serpent [Gen 1:25 And God maketh the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, and God seeth that it is good.]\

That creeping thing out smarted its creator. I know that the serpent of Gen.3 represents the enemy and is not a "snake."

That stuff does not matter, that serpent was not out of God's permission; In Job the adversary was WAITING FOR PERMISSION, the adversary[satan] is TOLD what to do. Does one think that its any different in Gen.3??

That punishment you speak of was man's first learning step, man NOW knew GOOD from BAD and man was ready to start on that path called life and as you stated man became the walking dead, walking towards Christ to receive life...and that more abundantly!