Author Topic: Thoughts on the advesary  (Read 4844 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Thoughts on the advesary
« on: September 15, 2011, 03:53:51 AM »
I've asked this question before and it went well, but I do not believe any of us came to anything close to some satisfaction.
I realize we all have insights and they all differ, I consider that a good thing.

God created ALL things, that is a truth we agree on, I hope.  With that in mind, is the adversary[satan] a created being or spirit? We know that God is the Father of spirits. Be the spirit be it good of bad.

Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."

I find no place in the Bible about created "beings or beings," (I may have over looked some thing so please don't hold me to an absolute.)

I reason and believe that the enemy (satan, devil, serpent, dragon) is a spirit, with multiple attributes, designed to plague, with the intention of overwhelming mankind, especially man mind.

These are my reasonings and my understanding. I would appreciate your thoughts. :bigGrin:

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 01:30:31 PM »
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].

Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ.  I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 03:20:06 PM »
I agree with Molly.   

CHB

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 06:52:21 PM »
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons.  For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures.  It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me. 

I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.

I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy.  At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel. 

I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has.  For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm.  Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it.  People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind?  I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative.  Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER??  If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of  . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .

Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with?  If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

Any takers on that one???

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.  Jesus has come to redeem the world on the cross.  Satan offers Jesus [in his human form] all the kingdoms of the world--no need to go through the trauma of the cross--if only Jesus will bow down and worship him.   That will place Satan higher on the hierarchy than the Son of God, a position he covets.  It will also assure his rule over us.

He also offers a hungry man bread, and, a powerful man a chance to exercise his power for his own aggrandizement.  Again, if Jesus took the bait, he would have failed in his mission to defeat Satan.

Now that Jesus has defeated Satan, we become Satan's next target because we are Jesus' brethren, part of the body of Christ,  and will rule and reign with Christ.  But we are able to overcome Satan through Jesus--if only we understand this.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 09:02:43 PM »
So . . .according to you Molly, Adam lost control and satan got it . . .so from Adam to Jesus, satan was in control of the world?  If that were the case, couldn't satan then have stopped the world from spinning?  Isn't his only goal to destroy man because God favored man over him?  He was in control of the world but he couldn't stop Jesus from being born?  How much "control" did he have then?  Just "tormental" control?  He has a third of all of heavens angels with him, his in the spirit, which is interesting because Jesus said he saw him fall to the earth . . .if he saw him fall to the earth, why can't we see him on the earth?  Why can we only see the results of where he's been?  Kinda like the Holy Spirit . . .

If satan fell to the earth . . .is he still spirit?  isn't spirit a higher plain than physical?  How can satan fall from the spirit to the earth and still be bound by the earth?  Or was he bound at all?  How can he approach God's throne as he did in Job, come and go from a SPIRITUAL throne of God to the NATURAL earth to destroy men . . .but still not able to destroy "all" men. 

There are just too many "add-as-you-go" rules to this whole line of thought.  We want to embrace just "one" aspect of who he is but not all of the rest of the common sense questions that would affect the whole picture should that "one" aspect be real. 

You say that's easy, satan wasn't tempting the spirit of Jesus, he was tempting his flesh .. .well . . .what was satan?  Spirit or flesh?  Was he physical or spiritual?  If he was spiritual, then why would he only have tried to tempt the natural part of Jesus.  Was Jesus not all spiritual and all physical at the same time?  Satan didn't think of that?  Isn't he supposed to be the most crafty beast in all the field? 

We say he's a spirit, but he has limited understanding of God???  Satan is a spirit, but he was thrown out of heaven and now he's in the spirit roaming around on the earth . . .yet . . .heaven is all around us on this earth, just on the other side of the physical realm . . .unless heaven really is located somewhere outside the furthest galaxy and the army that Elisha could see, but his servant couldn't see . . .I can't even finish that sentence because even in the attempt to make it fit so that satan can be in the spirit but cast to the earth at the same time, it totally contrasts the examples in Scripture as to where heaven is.

In your mind, it's easy, but you never really answered anything.  The only part I can agree with you on is, satan tempted the carnal side of Jesus . . .except I'm not sure you'll agree with "that" piece either because you'd have to say there was some carnality in Jesus.  But that's been my point all along . . .it wasn't the leader of hell dragging around the leader of heaven . . .tempting the physical part of him . . .it was the physical NATURE in Jesus that was tempting Jesus IN him.  It just fits.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3675
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 09:05:22 PM »
   Father has revealed in these last days..when it seems the adversary has overcome and been victorious[deceived the entire inhabited earth..].

  that satan has NOT suceeded in causing the loss of one single man in Adam....However,it IS THE WILL OF GOD..that we continue in our spiritual

  warfare and RULE OVER THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS until He does away with him at the breath of His coming..

   This revealing was not for the purpose of everyone to say'it doesn't matter...but was for the purpose of vivyfying the fatigued in

   spiritual warfare.  Like a Captain of Host saying...Carry on the victory is assured!!!Micahael stand up and everyone delivered.


    The adversary was not Adam,nor old Adam...but the overcoming of man by the adversary....the abomination is the spirit of the adversary

  in our temple/body...of which God said 'throw this temple down and I will raise it up on the third day........


   This whole good evil expierence was in the divine plan of Father..for the children of God to be exercized in,However it has been far more traumatic

   then it need be..due to mankind not heeding God's instructions...for He did not ever tell us to seek Him in vain...for He teaches us the best way

  and for our benefit in this realm

   So heed Him to the best of your ability..it is for your benefit......

    The MYSTERY OF LAWLESSNESS IS THE VERY ADVERSARY AND HIS WICKED WORKS THROUGH MAN....THE MAN OF SIN IS THE ADVERSARY

   IN THE TENPLE[abomination/demonic possession]  A HOLY PLACE IS OUR BODY/CREATED FOR THE SPIRIT OF GOD TO DWELL IN..........


    GOD DECLARES HE WILL DESTROY ANY THAT DESTROYS HIS TEMPLE.....HE SAYS,"TOUCH NOT MY ANNOINTED"and 'BECAUSE I WAS THERE"


     The adversary IS NOT CARNAL MAN.....but MAN IS CARNAL WHEN THE ADVERSARY IS IN HIM[behaves like a beast]...

   Old Man Adam is not man of sin.........BUT DYING ADAM KILLED BY ADVERSARY...OF WHICH CHRIST GIVES LIFE....


    THE SON OF PERDITION is not Judas....BUT SATAN THAT ENTERED HIM........and liar[false prophet/theif/murderer/slanderer formed an evil plot to hand Him over]

   and used Judas flesh to do it... Just as in the garden...false prophet/theif/slanderer/murderer spirit spoke through the body of a serpent....

    the most subtil 'BEAST' of the field....and now you KNOW THE MARK OF THE BEAST...whether in a body of many men forming a 'kingdom'

   on this earth/government...that Babylon rides..or a religious'kingdom' or a single man........and they are always anti-CHRIST or anti-annointing..because

  it is a spirit of anti=adversary against truth,love,saving of Adam

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 09:29:47 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 09:31:42 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
.it was the physical NATURE in Jesus that was tempting Jesus IN him.  It just fits.

No.  That of all things, you must see the error of it.  Jesus says,

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

--John 14:30

Jesus was without sin, knew not sin, was without spot or blemish--the perfect Lamb of God.

He was in a human physical body and proved that it was possible to live as a human and not sin.

This defeated Satan, once and for all.

The carnal body and mind makes us susceptible, that is, easy targets for an evil spirit that wishes to destroy us.

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour

--1 Peter 5:8

Is that describing me?  Or my body?  Am I like a walking zombie looking for someone to devour because I live in a physical body?

No, I am a lamb, led to the slaughter all day long.


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 09:41:38 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.
If a King grants a castle and land to his knight, does the King then hover over the knight trying to micromanage it from afar?  No that gift is without repententence--that is, irrevocable.  It now belongs to the knight, and it is his to keep or lose.

Such was the gift of authority over the world given to Adam.  The only way Adam could lose it was through death, so the Nachash made sure that death would gain dominion over Adam.   At that point, the only thing God could do is redeem Adam from death with his own death--which is what he did--following the law of the kinsman redeemer, that is, a kinsman of Adam--Jesus-- had to pay the debt in full.

That it never occurred to Satan that God would do that is without question---because Satan does not have or understand divine Love.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 09:45:54 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2011, 09:51:04 PM »
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2011, 09:51:50 PM »
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].

Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ.  I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.

See my PM
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2011, 09:56:41 PM »
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.

Look what God said to Adam--

Where art thou?

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.


What am I saying?  The King is shocked and horrified  if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2011, 09:59:06 PM »
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons.  For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures.  It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me. 

I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.

I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy.  At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel. 

I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has.  For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm.  Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it.  People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind?  I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative.  Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER??  If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of  . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .

Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with?  If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

Any takers on that one???


Yep  Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2011, 10:02:46 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.

If as you say "Adam did," and "the buck stops with Adam," and " It was Adam's to lose." The God lost control OR He was never in control and that I assure you is not an option. God started what we all have to day and in the past and He will finish what He started or He is not God.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2011, 10:03:33 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 10:10:32 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.  Jesus has come to redeem the world on the cross.  Satan offers Jesus [in his human form] all the kingdoms of the world--no need to go through the trauma of the cross--if only Jesus will bow down and worship him.   That will place Satan higher on the hierarchy than the Son of God, a position he covets.  It will also assure his rule over us.

He also offers a hungry man bread, and, a powerful man a chance to exercise his power for his own aggrandizement.  Again, if Jesus took the bait, he would have failed in his mission to defeat Satan.

Now that Jesus has defeated Satan, we become Satan's next target because we are Jesus' brethren, part of the body of Christ,  and will rule and reign with Christ.  But we are able to overcome Satan through Jesus--if only we understand this.

"won fair and square in the garden." Molly

Now that is ridiculous, won fair and square :laughing7: By suggesting that the adversary could possibly win something over its Creator is well. And if that were the case then we had all should get pretty no really fearful that the enemy could possible over run God The Creator again. Do you see the foolishness. Remember Jesus is the Beginning and the End.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 10:12:34 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 10:15:27 PM »
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].

Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ.  I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.

See my PM
Lucifer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Isa 14:4 That thou shalt 
 
take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The word, 'proverb', is rendered from the Hebrew root word, משׁל, mashal (the actual word used here is המשׁל, hamashal, "this proverb"). משׁל can be rendered parable, by-word, lamentation, allegory, taunt, similitude, etc. It is also rendered 'let' and 'rule'. The context tells the meaning. Therefore, the mashal can be an allegory or a similitude. That is, it uses a substantive object as a metaphor for another object. In this case, the immediate object of the parable is the king of Babylon, who was substantive, for he was a flesh and blood person. It is more likely that Belshazzar is the king in question than Nebuchadnezzar. The former lost the kingdom to the Medes and Persians. This parable refers to that one who lost the kingdom. Nebuchadnezzar did not lose Babylon, the golden city; Belshazzar did.

However, being an allegory or a similitude, the literal refers to the figurative. Figuratively, the parable regards one named Lucifer. This Lucifer is another who lost a kingdom. In orthodox Christianity, we understand Lucifer as Satan, the Devil, Beelzebul, the Dragon, etc. Even so, how do we know that Lucifer is the correct rendering of the Hebrew? Modern textual criticism and modern scholarship scorn the idea that this light bearer, the son of the dawn is indeed Satan. They say that Jerome, in his Vulgate, used the word Lucifer, which is a combination of the Latin lucis (light—genitive of lux) and ferre (to bear), meaning light-bearer or shining one.They also say that Isaiah did not have Satan in mind when he wrote this parable. These experts state that Isaiah simply meant the king of Babylon. Many Roman Catholics regard that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen. Accordingly, he was the light bearer of Heaven before he fell. Literally, Isaiah uses the term Helel Ben Shachar (הילל בן־שׁחר ), light bearer (or shining one), son of the dawn, to refer to the fall of the Babylonian king.

Now I would like to remind you of what Bullinger said about the "shining one":

These all compel the belief that Satan was the shining one (Nachash) in Genesis 3, and especially because the following words could be addressed to him :- "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee" (verse 17).

—The Companion Bible, Appendix 19, E.W. Bullinger

Written by Dr. Bullinger in the late Nineteenth Century, this appendix refers to the serpent in Eden. Revelation 20:2 tells us that this serpent was none other than "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". Bullinger calls Satan the "shining one", albeit from a different Hebrew word, but still with the same meaning. Strong, Briggs, Robinson, and others tell us that the term, הילל, helel, can be translated "shining one".

The Septuagint translators used the word εωσφορος (heosphoros) to render הילל, helel. Breaking the word apart, we have εωσ, heos, and φορος, phoros. The first word, heos, comes from φως, phos, meaning light. The second word, phoros, comes from φορεω, phoreo, meaning to carry a burden, or to bear (compare 'phosphorus'). Hence, a εωσφορος, or heosphoros, is a light bearer. If one bears a light, then the light shines, therefore a light bearer could be said to be a shining one. Note that phosphorescent things shine in the dark.

We learn from ancient Greek literature that the word heosphoros, which is basically the English word, phosphorus, means light bearer, dawn bringer, star of the morning, morning star, daystar, and Venus (AKA the morning star). Wade Cox, a writer for logon.org, made this statement about the heosphoros: "This terminology goes back also into ancient mythology and represents a function of rulership. With the Babylonians, it was attributed to the Ishtar system in the evening as the Evening Star representing sexual love and the Morning Star represented Ishtar as goddess of war. This was reflected in the triune system as employed by Babylon." Truly, the ancients worshipped the morning star, Venus, as a goddess. We know that goddess worship originated with Satan. Paul said that worshipping an idol, and Venus is an idol, is worshipping demons. 1 Corinthians 10:19-20, "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils."

Along this same line of reasoning, let us review excerpts from The Westminster Hebrew Morphology comments:

All the uses of our verb appear in contexts with mythological connections. This is not to say that biblical writers assumed the validity of pagan myth. Indeed, as Job (Job 41:18 [H 10]) seeks to make clear, God alone exists as deity. The pagan gods are creations of their own minds (Isa 2:8). Leviathan is a toy in God's hands, i.e., he mocks the pagan religions… our verb appears alludes to shaµar (q.v.; cf. J. W. McKay, "Helel and the Dawn-Goddess," VT 20: 456ff) which is probably to be understood as the name of a goddess. McKay (op. cit.) contends that in the allusion in Isa 14:12-15 there is a Canaanite version of the Greek Phaethon myth as mediated and influenced by Phoenician culture during the "heroic age." The development of the Canaanite version is complex and has affinities with the Ugaritic myth involving Athar, son of Athirat, who was unable to occupy the throne of Baal. It was Phaethon who attempted to scale the heights of heaven and as the dawn star was ever condemned to be cast down into Hades (she°ôl, q.v.)… it is important to note the following philological oddities: (1) har môe'd (Isa 14:13) and Ugaritic gr.ll ("The Mount of Lala") where there assembled the p-r. m'd, ("The Assembled Body" ANET, p. 130-UT 16: Text 137:20) and (2) the name saphôn [sides of the north] (Isa 14:13) which is well known in Ugaritic as the mountain of the gods. The God of Israel is not enthroned on Saphon; he reigns from heaven itself…Any interpretation of Isa 14 which does not take into account the mythological allusion does injustice to what is said there.

It is certain that Isaiah fully understood the mythology of star worship when he wrote this passage. The Babylonians worshipped a pantheon that included the starry hosts. Such worship was a direct result of the corrupting influence of the evil one on the world. We also know, as did Isaiah, that these pagan rulers deemed themselves gods and accepted the worship of their subjects. Do you remember the statue that got Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego thrown into the fiery furnace? Nebuchadnezzar wanted them to bow down to his statue, that is, he wanted them to worship him as a god. It is therefore no stretch of the facts, or the imagination, to insist that Isaiah was metaphorically referring to Satan.

Lucifer is a name we call this shining one since the advent of the Latin versions of the Bible. Does that make it wrong to continue to use the word Lucifer? No. In fact it is better that we do not throw away the name Lucifer, for the great deception of the Devil is to make people believe he does not exist. The modern textual critic and the modernist Biblical "scholar" would have us believe that Lucifer is a misnomer and a refutation of the facts. Actually, they have fallen under the deceptive spell of the Devil themselves. They too have accepted his lie that he does not exist. Let us retain the name Lucifer, for it continually reminds us of Satan and his power.

Now Lucifer, the morning star, who is Satan, has power over this world. When Christ, the Bright and Morning Star came, He defeated Satan the self-proclaimed morning star. This alludes to a transfer of power from Satan to Christ, which is truly Biblical. Genesis tells us that the serpent will bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman , and that the Seed will crush the head of the serpent (the Seed represents Christ). Satan, who had been the prince of the power of the air since the beginning of the world, successfully had Christ crucified, thus bruising His heel. Nevertheless, the victory was Christ's, for after the crucifixion, Christ arose and crushed the head of the serpent. Satan may no longer posses anyone who is saved. The Devil cannot possess a saved person because he has the Holy Spirit in himself. An evil spirit cannot displace the Holy Spirit. Satan no longer has power over God's children unless those children allow hm to have power over them. As long as we keep our eyes on Christ, Satan has no power over us. That means his power has diminished significantly. Thus his head has been crushed. But he is not dead yet. At the end of the age he will be cast into the lake of fire where he will remain forever. Then his demise will be complete.

In the First Century BC, the term helel was used to refer to Satan. In the days that Christ lived, Lucifer, the light bearer, masquerading as an angel of light, and Satan were considered synonymous. It was simple for the early church to assign the devil to helel and to this passage in Isaiah. Isaiah does not highlight the distinction, though he understood it, and that is why modernist scholars wrongly say that Isaiah did not have Satan in mind.

When one looks at the context, it is easy to see that these things mentioned here do not apply to a mere human. Yes, they can allegorically apply to a king, and the King of Babylon is mentioned, but they can also refer to the celestial shining being who is known as Satan. Since the early church assigned this view to Lucifer, I am willing to accept that Satan is in view in this passage. After all, in the apostolic age, many revelations of truth not known before the advent of Christ came to light. For example, the mystery that is the Gospel was unknown in the Old Testament era. It is no stretch to accept that the revelation given to Isaiah referred to Satan (knowingly or unknowingly) and that God reserved that revelation until the advent of His Son. I am certain that Lucifer, or Helel Ben Shachar, is the devil.

http://www.bibleword.org/lucifer.shtml

« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 10:20:44 PM by Molly »

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 10:21:18 PM »
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons.  For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures.  It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me. 

I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.

I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy.  At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel. 

I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has.  For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm.  Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it.  People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind?  I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative.  Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER??  If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of  . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .

Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with?  If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

Any takers on that one???


Yep  Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.

That doesn't really fly either . . .there are just as many commentaries out there that can argue the same thought.  I'm not all that interested in a commentary that someone wrote 50 or a hundred years ago.  I want what God is saying in us "now". 

Come on . . . if he didn't have to deal with carnality within, then he wasn't ALL flesh.  Having a carnal mind merely is saying you are a physical being.  We all have carnal minds . . .that's what we were seeing with him being tempted in the wilderness, it was showing that he was just as human as the next guy.  But he used that experience as an example of how all humans can overcome the carnal nature within us. 

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11260
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 10:22:17 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

That's easy.  Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen.  What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control.  Adam did.  The buck stops with Adam.  It was Adam's to lose.

If as you say "Adam did," and "the buck stops with Adam," and " It was Adam's to lose." The God lost control OR He was never in control and that I assure you is not an option. God started what we all have to day and in the past and He will finish what He started or He is not God.

When you give the keys to the car to your teenager, do you then jump into the driver's seat?

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2011, 10:26:28 PM »
That Lucifer stuff is well silly.

If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5709
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Thoughts on the advesary
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2011, 10:29:33 PM »
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons.  For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures.  It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me. 

I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.

I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy.  At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel. 

I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has.  For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm.  Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it.  People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind?  I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative.  Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER??  If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of  . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .

Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with?  If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???

Any takers on that one???


Yep  Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.

That doesn't really fly either . . .there are just as many commentaries out there that can argue the same thought.  I'm not all that interested in a commentary that someone wrote 50 or a hundred years ago.  I want what God is saying in us "now". 

Come on . . . if he didn't have to deal with carnality within, then he wasn't ALL flesh.  Having a carnal mind merely is saying you are a physical being.  We all have carnal minds . . .that's what we were seeing with him being tempted in the wilderness, it was showing that he was just as human as the next guy.  But he used that experience as an example of how all humans can overcome the carnal nature within us.

Friend this aint no commentary Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
Now either you are going to believe the Bible or you are going to start your own religion. The carnal mind is sin in and of itself.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.