Their worm dieth not

[WhiteWings]

When reading an ET site the fire is fire and the worm is sin that's constantly eating away any hope.
Or something like that.

In the UR view God is the fire. A cleaning fire. But if the worm doesn't die then God would have found His match because He's unable to destroy the worm (sin)

So what is the worm from an UR pov?

[Nathan]

Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

To me, your worm is your soul.

[Taffy]

Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)

TWO TYPES ww....

A maggot and a Worm...read up on it...it will tell the difference

towla

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)


Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.

The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE

[WhiteWings]

/edit this reply was typed during Taffies reply.

Exodus 16:24  And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Job 17:14  I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm,

The above 2 verses seem to speak about normal maggots.

Mark 9:43-44  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}  44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

So if the soul is the worm does that mean the body is completly burned away?

BTW
I've seen some gloomy ET NDA experiences with worms. The worms where a few feet long and had big spikes.
A woman that commited adultary had worms entering trough here throat and exiting in the lower parts. Completely shredding her body over and over.

[Nathan]

No, it isn't about your physical body . . .it's about your carnal nature . . that is the "flesh" we speak of.  In Genesis, God speaks to the serpent about it's diet.  He says "dust shall be your meat".   We know physically, snakes don't live on dirt.  But it's not meant to be understood physcially, like the rest of the Bible, so many seem to be struggling here with the fact that NONE of it is supposed to be taken literal in the same sense as to those it was originally written to.  I still believe that's why all the debating is still happening, even on the "spiritual" forums.  We're being "called" into the spirit, but we're wanting to bring our baggage of how we learned to study the Bible from our previous past with us.  Until we "see" the sound of rest . . .the arguments will continue.

The worm, as Taf so effectively stated in so few words (how "do" you "do" that??) the worm lives on dead flesh . . .Romans 1:20 . .God uses natural means to reveal spiritual truths.  In looking at the characteristics of what worms do, we can actually learn about something of ourselves.  Worms "do" eat dirt . . .earth worms, in our area there are also worms we like to call "night-crawlers)  They have the same nature as earth-worms.  The lay just beneath the surface in the summer months and live on the nutrients in the dirt.  They have no bones in them (frame-work, stability) and they only come out at night.  The second light is cast on them, they immediately retract into their earthen holes they crawled out of.

Maggots . . .on the other hand, as Taf said, eat nothing but dead flesh.  Every now and then you'll see documentaries on how some hospitals use maggots to eat decaying flesh in someone who's still alive.  Very gross.

But the Biblical references to such things are not for us to learn more about nature, but it's all about God revealing the nature of Christ and his creation in us.  Our ego is what lives on the dust . . .it's our ego that was the serpent in the tree of knowledge . . .it's the dragon in Revelation, it's the devil, it's satan . . .it's the antichrist . .it's the bottomless pit . . . the emphasis is not about me, it's about the redemption of Christ "in" me.  But my ego only thinks of itself . . .self-consciousness.  And it takes the word of God . .creates an image of God out of it's own logic, and is convinced that Man was made for the Sabbath. 

So, no, it's not your physical body being burned . .it's your carnal nature.

[WhiteWings]

Nathan. I'm very aware most things in the Bible aren't to be taken literally. But unfortunately that knowledge doesn't help me understand what it means. Altough my message is shown after Taffies reply I started my reply before him. It just took me way longer to complet my message as it did for Taffy.
(see my "/edit...." at the start of the message)

Anyway your following quote made me think:
(BTW made=maggot in Dutch....)

Maggots . . .on the other hand, as Taf said, eat nothing but dead flesh.  Every now and then you'll see documentaries on how some hospitals use maggots to eat decaying flesh in someone who's still alive.  Very gross.

Maggots are (in rare occasions) still used in advanced wester hospitals.
Maggots are masters of only eating death flesh. Under some circumstances their cleaning effect is better than anti-biotics. Of course it's a very controlled use of maggots. Not an horror like scenario.
Was such usage know in the time of Jesus? The reason I ask is that the worms have a purifying effect.
They eat away dead flesh=sinful nature but leave good flesh=good nature intact.

[Nathan]

Hmm . .now you may be getting closer to the true nature of God.  He's not nearly as concerned about the maggots in our nature as we are.

The first thing that popped in my mind when you stated that was . . . wheat and tares.  We're instructed NOT to try to remove the tares but wait until all things have come into their maturity.  Who's to say God does not place these spiritual "flesh-eating" maggots within us?

Interesting thought.

But to the original passage . .the worm never dying . . .I think it would be taking that particular passage out of context if we were to try to apply it to this other idea.  In all truth, my mind (ego) is a flesh eater . . .the more I feed it, the more it consumes my time, attention, and energy.  My flesh is the dust the serpent (ego) feasts on . . .this is much like worrying about all of the daily issues we experience at any given time.  The natural environment in us . . .we are "in" the world but not "of" the world.  When all you think about is worldly things, you're becoming more of than in.  And when I'm in that arena, I'm not any good to anyone. 

the picture there is a bit different than our hospital maggots.  But I can see how that can also have  a lot of value to it as well.  Who here still has not dead flesh that needs to be cleaned from our living, breathing hearts?  Bring on the maggots eh?

[WhiteWings]

The first thing that popped in my mind when you stated that was . . . wheat and tares.  We're instructed NOT to try to remove the tares but wait until all things have come into their maturity.

Your far from the first on this forum to state something among that line.
To be honest I don't understand one letter of it.
I try to be more Christian. And for me that's trying to at least get rid of a few tares. And certainly not adding more of them.
I'm very well aware you or anyone else on this forum is advising me to sin (add more tares) but it surely reads that way for me. I just don't see the difference between your words and the words of satan.
I'm NOT comparing your intentions with those of satan Nathan!
BTW is it a coincidence your names sound so much alike? 

[Mickiel]

I think whenever the bible speaks of eternity of things, or their worm not dying, then the answer has to be in eternity. Or destiny. Their destiny will never die. Of course if you try and see it as a physical thing, then all kinds of interpitations can be brought forth. And all of those interpitations will wither and die.

If something is not going to die, then it only can be eternal. If a human has a worm, and that worm will never die, then it only means destiny.

Our destiny, our future, our potential will never die. Its not so much the physical, because the things that eat away at us will die, or come to an end. But for my worm to never die, means God is giving it eternity.

Peace.

[WhiteWings]

Hi Mikiel!

I had that thought about eternnity too. But I decided not to mention it because I feared teh thread got sidetracked to the anion thingy again. This is not an attack on you mentioning it.
But now it's mentioned it's no problem to continue with it.
Would it make sense if I would say "the worm dieth not during the correctional age" ?
Or "the worm dieth not until its work is completed"?
Anyone seen the movie "Sin Eater" Something like that.

Nathan see the worm as a soul. That's not how I see it. (yet)
For me the worm is punishment or a cleaning method. See my hospital maggot example.

[Nathan]

Whitewings . . . let me put this another way . . .pertaining to your comments on the wheat and tares . . .you've read many books, gathered a lot of information.  Could you confirm that when someone has cancer, they have to go through chemotherapy, that the things purposefully being put into their body is small doses of the very thing they're dying from?  With the intent to have the body build up an immune against the virus?

If I don't want to get the measles, that the very thing they shoot into my body, is the actual virus I'm trying to avoid getting, just a very small dose . .about the size of a tare.

If you feel there is already an abundance of words said on this subject and yet you still feel as you do, then I'll just leave this where it is as it's apparent, there's nothing I can add that you don't already know . . . and I pray that God will get past your mind and reveal truth to your heart . . . everything is spiritual.

Okay, just one thing though . . . if you read the passage . .it's not you, nor I who removes the tares from your field.  It's the angels . .the messengers  ..more importantly, the message.  So when you feel you must take it upon yourself to remove your own tares, perhaps you can see why we say that it's best to leave them . . .God's grace is just that big.

[studier]

Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)

TWO TYPES ww....

A maggot and a Worm...read up on it...it will tell the difference

towla

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)


Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.

The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE

Amen.

There we go, see how using words properly demonstrates the truth! :D

[WhiteWings]

Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.

Then it flies to the light.





Sorry couldn't resist this open goal

[Nathan]

That's just . . .so . . .wrong!

[Mickiel]

Hi Mikiel!

I had that thought about eternnity too. But I decided not to mention it because I feared teh thread got sidetracked to the anion thingy again. This is not an attack on you mentioning it.
But now it's mentioned it's no problem to continue with it.
Would it make sense if I would say "the worm dieth not during the correctional age" ?
Or "the worm dieth not until its work is completed"?
Anyone seen the movie "Sin Eater" Something like that.

Nathan see the worm as a soul. That's not how I see it. (yet)
For me the worm is punishment or a cleaning method. See my hospital maggot example.

Well seeing is believing to some, but not to all. We see in scripture what we see, its the comparing of what we see that causes confusion. We compare amoungst ourselves our differences, and then pick on each others difference. In my view, when something does not die, its eternal, if then something in a human does not die, it just has eternal ramifications, of which we are limited on understanding. For example, is there a " Worm in every human?" If that be so, and this worm does not die, then we are getting into destiny, not matter, or the physical " Worm." But physical examples of things in eternity are all that we can now experience, so I think some of the examples given are valid.

The worm  to pupi, or the evolution of one form of life, meant to evolve into another, I think makes sense. Its really all about the stages of life, some stages are meant to represent death, others are meant to show we will never die.

And that can be confusing. If the worm does not die, then it is simply a worm of God, or a work of God not meant to die.

There is a worm in the ground, and we are destined to return to the ground. So the worm is part of both death and life, and we see one stage, or both, or sadly neither.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I think it deserves honorable mention that Jesus give solem warnings for specfic reasons. In Mark 9:43, he states that it is better to enter life crippled, than to be whole and enter into hell, the unquenchable fire. Where their worm does not die, nor does the fire die.  Perhaps the only scripture where Jesus actually compares hell to the lake of fire, and makes it a point, 3 times, to be aware in our thinking that we are better off being physically handicapped by being righteous, and to carry that condition into heaven, ( and be healed) than to not make the sacrifices that we should in our human living, as we march toward our destiny with the grave, or hell.

Everryone will be salted with fire, or every human has a devine destiny. Hell, the lake of fire, the worm not quenched, all are destiny, or unavoidable circumstance, which must be viewed from a standpoint of Salvation, which is not circumstancial. The worm dies from circumstance, if it is a situation where the worm does not die, then there is no circumstance. There is only eternity. So when the worm does not die, its just out of the relm of human circumstance, now your in the fire, which I think only means eternity  in this scripture. So in this matter, I think the worm, means the " Soul of the human." The soul that sins shall die, so this worm is dead already physically, but now must face eternity.

So again the lumming belief that the lake of fire is medicnal, needs to be rightly considered, because it carrys a lot of weight. It just may well be true. I don't know. Souls of the dead being ressurected again to life, then never dying again. Fire is good when it is hot, but when it looses its heat, what good is it? Our lack of understanding is a heat, and we are not going to loose it as of yet. What good is salt that has lost its flavor? What good is a worm, or a soul that can die? The soul that sins shall die, so in one sense, we NEED to have a worm that never dies.

We just need God to bathe us with righteous eternal existance.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

 So in another sense, again Jesus comparrison to the worm not dying, in conjunction with the Lake of fire, is a prophecy of eternal ramifications. Or he wants to compare dying, with a circumstance in which death is totally removed. This should switch some gears in your mind, from the physical to the spiritual, or move your thoughts of punishment, into a higher level of punishment. Fear him who is able to KILL both body and soul in hell. Or God can kill you forever, if he is inclinded to. Just leave you in the grave, or you remain dead.

But the worm never dying is encouraging, in a sense, because its leaving room for life, within a death circumstance. God created the circumstances, satan manipulates the circumstances, and looks to doom us based on the circumstancial evidence. And wants to cause us to stumble. Death is circumstancial, but life is a gift from God. The worm never dying is a kind of Gift then, a gift given in the flesh, or bathed within circumstances beyond our control, and then a NEW CIRCUMSTANCE looms when we go into eternity! A new worm. A new birth.

A new life. A life that never dies.

Peace.

[Nathan]

Mickiel it would seem you have reached the crux of the matter . . .the lake of fire will purge the soul from it's impurities, but the soul will survive the fire.  Our ego/voice of reason naturally leans toward the negative aspects of everything.  But this isn't necessarily a bad thing here . . .the good thing is the outcome after the fire.  You're soul lives . . .purified for ever.

I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.  Once we've been cleansed "by" the lake of fire, we'll live forever rejoicing "in" the lake of fire . . .have we not said "God" is the lake of fire?  Only the moral mind would view it as a bad thing, a terrible experience, and then creating it to be something it isn't so that we won't be so willing to jump in it . .because the ego knows, once this final purging happens, it will never be in a high place ever again.

Anybody got a light???

[WhiteWings]

I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.

Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.

Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?

To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means  "awe".


G5399  phobeo  fob-eh'-o

from G5401;

to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

[Sarah]

When I asked God what the fire and worms were, I heard lust and guilt. It is that cyclical nature of a state of mind that one lives in when they do not cut off that part of them that causes them to sin. The very misery of this place will many times lead one to repentence. In this place, the lust and guilt are never-ending...that is why we must be delivered from this body of death through Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.

Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?

To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means  "awe".

G5399  phobeo  fob-eh'-o

from G5401;

to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

Paul,

I don't understand your answer. Reexplain please.

[WhiteWings]

When I asked God what the fire and worms were, I heard lust and guilt. It is that cyclical nature of a state of mind that one lives in when they do not cut off that part of them that causes them to sin. The very misery of this place will many times lead one to repentence. In this place, the lust and guilt are never-ending...that is why we must be delivered from this body of death through Jesus.

If fire=lust and worm=guilt; why does God sent sinners into a lake of fire=lust?

/corrected 20 errors in a 16 word sentance...

[Sarah]

If fire=lust and worm is guilt; why does sent sinners into a lake of fire=lust?

If I am understanding your question, are you wondering why God would send people to a place of lust and guilt?

It is evil desires in the heart that send people to Gehenna...a literal place with a spiritual application.

Romans 1

24 "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.  28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I know this verse seems to be a gay bashing verse, but I believe the bigger picture is the whole application of lust spoken of in John 2:16

16For all that is in the world, (AQ)the lust of the flesh and (AR)the lust of the eyes and (AS)the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Why send people here? Is it punishment? No, it is to destroy the sinful nature. Either they will repent as the prodical son did or the sin will lead to death.

1Corinthians 5

4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Here is an example of a fire that reveals a picture of God's unsavory view of self-righteouness and idolatry.

Isaiah 65

2 All day long I have held out my hands
       to an obstinate people,
       who walk in ways not good,
       pursuing their own imaginations-

 3 a people who continually provoke me
       to my very face,
       offering sacrifices in gardens
       and burning incense on altars of brick;

 4 who sit among the graves
       and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
       who eat the flesh of pigs,
       and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;

 5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me,
       for I am too sacred for you!'
       Such people are smoke in my nostrils,
       a fire that keeps burning all day.

In the natural the people received the natural consequences in the literal fires of Gehenna, whereas when we continue in sin and refuse to cut off that dead arm, we will reap the rewards of what we have sown.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.

Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?

To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means  "awe".

G5399  phobeo  fob-eh'-o

from G5401;

to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.

Paul,

I don't understand your answer. Reexplain please.

Well I will try.

I believe that the methods of properly intepreting scripture are contained within itself.   That might be disagreed with, but certainly we can look at the religious methods which become confusing and complicated, causing one to at times reliquish reason and call it faith and being spirit led.   I can clarify that further with scruipture if needed.

If God  "IS" love and its not something he created and uses, then it is reasonable to consider that all interpretation of the bible must include Love as a factor.

God operating things to instill a frightening fear into us to conform us to his will does not seem to fit that.  So in my opinion,  a statement telling us to fear in the bible would be a factor of  Reverence and Awe that can at times cause us to tremble, but not out of fright and worry.