Author Topic: Choice, Will  (Read 2400 times)

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SeekerOfTruth

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Choice, Will
« on: September 08, 2012, 12:42:14 PM »
The Holy Scriptures in the Bible appear to imply that humans have no free will or that they have very little free will if they do have any at all.

    "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

    "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

    "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13



    "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

    "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

If God has free will and humans are created in the image of God then could humans also have a form of free will?

I feel foolish asking these questions since my mind is only finite and God's mind is absolute infinite; but if God does not have free will then humans would also not have free will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will

Quote

The argument from free will (also called the paradox of free will, or theological fatalism) contends that omniscience and free will are incompatible, and that any conception of God that incorporates both properties is therefore inherently contradictory. The argument may focus on the incoherence of people having free will, or else God himself having free will. These arguments are deeply concerned with the implications of predestination, and often seem to echo the standard argument against free will.







   



« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 11:03:09 PM by jabcat »

Offline shawn

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 04:03:08 PM »
Seeker...this isn't a banned topic per se but it has caused much strife on the boards in the past.  People can give their 2cent on free will in creative ways without pushing hot buttons.  But, i think a free will post will be highly discouraged.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 04:28:40 PM »
Man choseshispath,God guides his steps.

Sounds like an illusion of free will.
Free will that has many limitations like laws.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 08:35:29 AM »
The paradox of free will and predestination is a mystery seen through a glass darkly. That is why it is foolishness to set absolutes in either direction. As we live, we trust and choose and exhort and heed and sin and repent and overcome..... and all things things involve the exercise of our wills, if we were not free to choose we would not be exhorted and would hav no need to heed. To whatever extent we are predestined, we are not included in the foreknowledge of it, so, if we fail to take heed, I would guess we are appointed to do so- but I would not encourage anyone to take a careless view of that.

"Examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith"

"Today if you hear my voice harden not your hearts"

"I am He that trieth the reins and the hearts"

"Therefore repent, or I will come quickly and foght against you with the sword of my mouth"

"The word of God is living and active and sharper thn any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.....For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

Peter says we are .....  "elect(chosen, predestined) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:2

So there is an interesting thought as to where the dividing line is between predetermined action and the foreknowledge of that action and the will, as three points in a triangle, or three dimensions of the truth.

I have been censured a couple times for discussing this, but I think I have been misinterpreted as having one view or the other. I don't, I don't think anyone sees it clearly enough to pontificate on it like some people do, so I like to ask questions that seem to mess with either absolute, in order to encourage open mindedness and a softer rhetoric- since I often hear people making harsh statements about the spirituallity of anyone who doesnt see it just as they do......

But really, I shouldn t say anything, or exhort the saints to seek understanding and to discuss these things even handedly and in a spirit of fellowship rather than a spirit of condescension or conflict, after all.....we just can't help ourselves

God made us do it.  :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh:


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Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 08:41:48 AM »
I have been censured a couple times for discussing this, but I think I have been misinterpreted as having one view or the other.

Even though moderation concerns are to be discussed in private, just quickly;  If this is addressing what I've personally said, it's not whether one takes one side or the other.  Everyone's welcome to their own view.  The issue is just as it says in the expectations section, if it keeps getting brought up, and especially continually using the terms (which seem to enflame too many people  :thinking:) it causes problems and is discouraged.  Any discussion of the concepts is encouraged to be :gguitar: creative

 :Peace2:
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 09:40:46 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 06:17:51 AM »
Nah, I wasn't talking about you or any particular moderator at all James, I was just talking about various responses to my posts on the board when it draws near this subject matter(which I generally avoid). I have a healthy respect for free will in God's purpose and plan and I think there is some general opposition to that. Then again, I realize that overall all things work according to the counsel of His will and His ultimate kind intention for mankind. To me it is no big deal, just a topic like any other, and I don't get all the heavy breathing about it. :o)

However, if there is going to be a thread called "the free will debate" on the board, I hope "creative" doesnt mean "you can talk about it as long as you don't say anything" :laughhand:
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Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 06:44:10 AM »
:) 

It means this;

especially continually using the terms

We're trying to handle an ultra-sensitive subject with some wisdom, flexibility, and forebearance, but for sure, an easier way would be to just censor any mention at all and lock any threads that did anything more than hint at it - which is pretty much what we did for awhile after we buried the bodies.

I guess another option would be - let history repeat itself and let's have a free-for-all and let everybody bash each other upside the head. 

Nah...  :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 06:49:02 AM »
p.s.  Honestly, most of the folks that would be battering others are gone, and this topic is one of the things that was involved in some of their leaving.  Most now could probably handle it, but I don't think we're brave enough to test it.   :flowerred:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 06:53:07 AM »
for some reason, repeated use of the terms "free will" and "all sovereign" are like putting a lighted firecracker in the seat of some peoples' britches.    :myahoo:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 06:59:29 AM »
I was sitting here trying to figure why that might be, trying to compare it to a slang name for a group of people or whatever.  However, one thing that occurred to me is, I wonder if one reason many in the UR community gag at one of the terms is, so many ET'ers use it to "explain" why most of humanity "chooses" to go to hell forever.   But then the converse wouldn't explain the other side of it, so  :dunno2:.
------

LOL, thinking of this some more.  Maybe part of the converse is, many don't want their power or control "taken away".  I've heard that old phrase "God didn't make robots"... well, like so many others, it's a complicated issue, another one I can lay in bed in the wee hours thinking about.   :lazy:   That whole "we have nothing and can do nothing apart from God", yet He expects us to make choices and decisions, yet we need His strength to do anything good or right (or isn't it "no longer us that live but Him that lives in us"?), yet......

OK, I'm probably going to be the cause of getting this thread locked   :laugh2:   (maybe not, I didn't use the "terms" once :)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:10:04 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 07:45:58 AM »
As I hav said many times before, it is so complicated we can only see it through a glass darkly :o)

Shades of understanding, facets reflecting glimpses.....

Mysteries shrouded in paradox

IMO all so that God can see which of us will grow wise enough to sit back and humbly say, "Well, I am really not entirely sure about that, but this is what I think brother(or sister)" :o)

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
(1Co 13:2)

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (Jas 3:17-18)

And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],(2Ti 2:24-25)

Personally, I would like to see an area reserved where those who have a measure of grace and self control could talk about anything edifying as long as they do so in a polite and considerate manner. The only way in would be to commit to sharing, not preaching; never getting personal; always being respectful of another persons different opinion; etc.

Knowing when to break off a discussion that is moving from edifying debate into dissension and strife is, according to Paul, the evidence that someone is serving of the Lord rather than their own ego.

We cou7ld call it

Wisdom From Above

or

Friendly Debates

or

Eaglesway's Wishful Thinking   :laugh:







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Offline jabcat

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 07:58:11 AM »
Good word.  I agree.

As for this part


Eaglesway's Wishful Thinking   :laugh:

:)  Maybe not as wishful thinking as you might think;   it's certainly something that's been toyed with.  I've thought about having a "free will week" or something like that, but you're right, it would almost certainly be in the Established Members section.  Well, well, well, what to do, what to do... ever see the cartoon of the little guy walking around and around in a circle wringing his hands and wearing a path in the floor?   :laughing7:   The little fellow probably won't be able to decide tonight LOL.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jugghead

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2012, 03:25:38 PM »
For me and in my opinion, we all have the freedom to choose, but when it comes to understanding what it means to surrender ourselves to the Father, it is surrendering our freedom to choose to believe what is righteous and what is unrighteous. We do not completely understand all that is unrighteous yet (see through a glass dimly) and our beliefs are based upon what we do understand up to any given point in our own lives. We are to wait for Him, through the Spirit to reveal what is unrighteous to us and by that we increase in the knowledge of what is evil for the purpose of understanding the knowledge of what is good, so that we can see Him "AS HE IS"

I believe we are to speak the words of Christ, "Not my will but yours be done", it is always the willingness to admit we might be wrong in what we understand at any given point in time.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 09:37:50 PM »
We have free will. So does God. If they conflict, guess who wins?
Just like all those that lived on earth and exercised their free will to mock or deny God, their free will to do that will not force God to lose to Satan. They will be irrestibly drawn (dragged) to Jesus.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 10:27:15 PM »
Ded,

The beauty of all of this is that nobody wins. Everybody agrees.
Father doesn't want sinners in heaven and sinners choose hell.

Scholary ET logic  :doh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 10:37:09 PM »
The beauty is that nobody wins??

Love wins. God wins. We all win.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 10:46:54 PM »
Ded, I'm hoping you noticed my post is dripping with sarcasm  :dsunny:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: The Free Will Debate
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 10:54:17 PM »
AMEN!!!...foolish satan...that thought God's desire to make man in our image..could be thwarted!!!!  Foolishness of youth..that Eve thought 'ifn ye eat of it

  ye shall not die"

   the foolishness of the cross!![1 Cor 1;18   For since in the wisdom of God the world through it's wisdom did not know Him,

  God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who beleive


   BUT WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!

   For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength!!!!!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 11:02:40 PM »
Thread name change lol.

(some good thoughts and concepts presented today  :thumbsup:)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 11:07:40 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 11:40:24 PM »
Sorry I didn't notice you grinning while you were typing or I would have noticed.
Crazy me, I kept thinking, "doesn't he mean just the opposite of what he said?" :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 01:37:09 AM »
A Prayer in Times of Controversy

Gracious Father, have mercy on your children in disputes. We are sorry for any root of pride or fear of
man or lack of insight that influences our stance in the controversy before us. We confess that we are not
pure in ourselves. Even as we strive to persuade one another, we stand in need of a merciful Advocate.

We are sinners. We are finite and fallible.

On both sides of the matter at hand, we take refuge together in the glorious gospel of justification by
faith alone through grace. We magnify Jesus Christ, our Savior and King for all he has done to make us
his own. We are a thankful people even in our conflict. We are broken and humble to think that we
would be loved and forgiven and accepted by an infinitely holy God.

Forbid, O Lord, that our spirit in this struggle would be one of hostility or ill will toward anyone.
Deliver us from every form of debate that departs from love or diminishes truth. Grant, Father, as
Francis Schaeffer pleaded in his last days, that our disagreements would prove to be golden
opportunities to show the world how to love not by avoiding conflicts, but by how we act in them.
Show us, O God, the relationship between doctrine and devotion, between truth and tenderness, between
Biblical faithfulness and Biblical unity, between standing on the truth and standing together. Let none of
us be unteachable, or beyond correction. May the outcome of our dispute be clearer vision of your glory
and grace and truth and wisdom and power and knowledge.

By your Spirit, grant that the result of all our arguments be deeper humility, more dependence on mercy,
sweeter fellowship with Jesus, stronger love in our common life, more radical obedience to the
commands of our King, more authentic worship, and a greater readiness and eagerness to lay down our
lives to finish the Great Commission.

In all this, Father, our passion is that you would be glorified through Jesus Christ. Amen.

Found this prayer as an introduction to a presentation on the issue of free will and predestination. IMO this is the mind of Christ and the will of God expressed succinctly in the spirit of reconciliation by a mature believer, and I havent even read the paper yet to see if i agree with his conclusions or not.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 01:42:08 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline CHB

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 02:00:40 AM »
Amen!!! :thumbsup:

If we all could keep the number one thing in mind that shows we are the disciples of Christ, which is to love God and each other then there wouldn't be any conflicks, hostility, strife, arguing. To me, to have these fights over any discussions shows a lack of love for our fellow man. I know we all have different points of view and I think it is good for all to share them, that is how we learn. By the way, this is just my point of view. :girlheart:

CHB 

Offline sheila

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2012, 02:03:35 AM »
Amen to the beautiful prayer. and thank you brother for sharing it with us :HeartThrob: in love

Offline Paul L

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Re: Choice, Will
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 07:16:23 AM »
So often at night as I go to bed, there are many questions I ask God. Like why does he not just appear to each & every individual human being in a personal way & explain his purpose for our existence on planet Earth.

If all human beings could have a personal visitation from God 3 or 4 times in a lifetime,  would that not go a long way to reduce the conflict between each & every individual human being? We would all then believe in the same Deity, we would all believe pretty similar things about issues that we presently spend so much time fighting over & often-time with more than just words.

We have a Bible that is imperfectly translated as it has been passed down to us from generation to generation, and we have no really authentic "first written" document of original ancient Hebrew or the original pen handed documents directly from the Apostles or Christ himself. Yet we take it for granted in believing their contents are true & accurate.

We have all these books handed down to us which we hope contains a reasonably close mindset what God intended for us to believe. But instead we often argue about which books are really the ones God intended to be his Holy writ, and in the end it was a bunch of men who got together to do this, and even they squabbled over that.

So I ask God every night to please, just show up on Earth & put an end to all the confusion, but every morning I wake up & everything is still the same, or worse.