Author Topic: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All  (Read 6348 times)

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Offline sparrow

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 03:11:15 AM »
Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 04:00:12 AM »
 :cloud9: Here is how jealousy is defined in the Hebrew (again for fullness of thought)......

Strong's Number:   07068     
Original Word   Word Origin
hanq   from (07065)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Qin'ah   TWOT - 2038a
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
kin-aw'      Noun Feminine
 Definition

   1. ardour, zeal, jealousy
         1. ardour, jealousy, jealous disposition (of husband)
               1. sexual passion
         2. ardour of zeal (of religious zeal)
               1. of men for God
               2. of men for the house of God
               3. of God for his people
         3. ardour of anger
               1. of men against adversaries
               2. of God against men
         4. envy (of man)
         5. jealousy (resulting in the wrath of God)


Which comes from a root word meaning.........

Strong's Number:   07065     
Original Word   Word Origin
anq   a primitive root
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Qana'   TWOT - 2038
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
kaw-naw'      Verb
 Definition

   1. to envy, be jealous, be envious, be zealous
         1. (Piel)
               1. to be jealous of
               2. to be envious of
               3. to be zealous for
               4. to excite to jealous anger
         2. (Hiphil) to provoke to jealous anger, cause jealousy


Psalm 69:9  For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up ; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

 :cloud9: So what He's saying here in the other two scriptures I quoted in the last post, is that He wants to provoke them to be zealous for the things of God and His Son, as are the ones they are observing as being blessed of the Lord.

It's the jealousy of a "husband" who wants His "wife" to be faithful to Him, and so makes her  zealous/jealous when "she" sees Him bestowing attention on another "woman". This is the reason for Him giving the type and shadow in Numbers 5 pertaining to the "waters of jealousy" for a potentially unfaithful wife.

God knows how to get us "where we live", doesn't He, LOL? He probably allowed the root of jealousy to be placed in everyone, just so He could use it for His purposes, in the first place. And why not? He used Satan to "disrobe" His Son of His flesh body that the glory within might be revealed in the third day.

And so He's doing it again, ie. using something of Satan to bring forth the glory of the Son in each. Kinda funny if you consider it says that the sons of God came before God and Satan was among them, ie. the wheat and the tares raised up together.

Also interesting to me is the fact that in this word series, (important because of the shared "root" of consonants) the word Cana is next which is the place of His first miracle, A WEDDING IN THE THIRD DAY. Blessings.....


« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:45:24 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 04:03:00 AM »
Oprah didn't like that our God says he is a jealous God.  She rejected that.  Who wants a jealous God? she said.

Personally, I like the fact he is 'jealous' over me. He even names himself for the emotion he feels over us.  :bigGrin:


Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:




"jealous"

H7067
קנּא
qannâ'
kan-naw'
From H7065; jealous: - jealous. Compare H7072.



H7065
קנא
qânâ'
kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) zealous, that is, (in a bad sense) jealous or envious: -  (be) envy (-ious), be (move to, provoke to) jealous (-y), X very, (be) zeal (-ous).

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2009, 04:12:37 AM »


He is jealous for me!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk  <---watch!

Oh! How He loves us!

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 04:19:22 AM »
Quote from: Cardinal
Also interesting to me is the fact that in this word series, (important because of the shared "root" of consonants) the word Cana is next which is the place of His first miracle, A WEDDING IN THE THIRD DAY. Blessings.....




wow Cana, where he did his first miracle, turning water to wine.  You could spend your whole life in these words.




"Cana"
G2580
Κανᾶ
Kana
kan-ah'
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H7071]); Cana, a place in Palestine: - Cana.


H7071
קנה
qânâh
kaw-naw'
Feminine of H7070; reediness; Kanah, the name of a stream and of a place in Palestine: - Kanah.


H7070
קנה
qâneh
kaw-neh'
From H7069; a reed (as erect); by resemblance a rod (especially for measuring), shaft, tube, stem, the radius (of the arm), beam (of a steelyard): - balance, bone, branch, calamus, cane, reed, X spearman, stalk.


H7069
קנה
qânâh
kaw-naw'
A primitive root; to erect, that is, create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase (causatively sell); by implication to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:23:06 AM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2009, 04:21:49 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen, Beloved Servant, yes He is........and He wants us to be the same way about Him. What we're really seeing and desiring in others that are manifesting some aspect of His gifts, IS HIM. And how can we be jealous OF Him? It's a no contest; cannot possibly measure up. But we can and are provoked to be jealous OVER Him and want all that He is, also.

Love that song, too........it's the like the "praisers" leading the way into "battle" with every inch of ground we cover thru the Lord, Amen? Good posts everybody........ :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2009, 04:29:47 AM »
Do you think he's turning our water to wine?

I'm starting to feel a little giddy... :cloud9:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2009, 04:33:34 AM »
Hey jab, I just have an issue with the whole idea of provoking others to jealousy.
That is something that needs to be ERADICATED from us, not nurtured.
Despite what verses say, I just can't go along with it.
In my heart, it is wrong.
It is not love.

Let people wonder and be curious about the peace in my heart, and let people wonder how I may be making it through a hard time without getting angry or resentful or full of rage. Let people wonder about my PEACE and be drawn to God's love that is INSIDE of me. But I just cannot nurture the idea of "provoking others to jealousy". Maybe this is something for others. But not for me. Jealousy is ugly.
YEARNING to have peace. YEARNING to have love. I can understand.
Jealousy is ugly resentment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because apparently I feel very strongly.
Unless someone wants to try to explain it in another way that makes sense to my heart and my spirt.

peace.

Dear sparrow, I don't believe my feelings over-ride the scriptures.  (You probably have a kinder, gentler heart than I do -you often display it.)  

I know you're not claiming perfection, but I am a very imperfect individual.   If I went with my feelings first, I would be VERY far away from God's truth and will.  I resist, disbelieve, even become angry - but I believe those are MY problems, not the scriptures or God's revealing of them, and God chastens me over those, bringing my will more in line with His.  I am very far from being there.  That's why I said I'm to be changed, not the scriptures.  And again, I believe there are ALWAYS explanations, ways the scriptures all fit together.  IMO, if I believe the accurate things, I won't have to reject ANY scripture - in that case, I'm probably just not understanding or accepting something - not yet changed, able, or willing to receive.

God will show us all eventually what we need to know.  We are in unity on many other things.  

James.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:40:03 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2009, 04:42:19 AM »
Do you think he's turning our water to wine?

I'm starting to feel a little giddy... :cloud9:

 :cloud9: That's EXACTLY what He is doing..........the literal letter understanding is as water (waters below the firmament); but the Spirit revelation is as the wine (firmament/heaven/place of Spirit rule and authority).

The revelation is what is building the "Ark" that is what we "get into" to escape the waters of the judgment to the flesh of man (waters below the firmament = literal letter understanding), ie. what is within is going to cover without = immortality swallowing or covering up mortality. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2009, 04:48:24 AM »


...and He has saved the best for last!

Offline jfraysse

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2009, 04:51:30 AM »
The Romans 10 and 11 verses, if interpreted as intended to provoke a fleshly response, is evil in and of itself.  It violates the response of Love to such provocation as described in 1 Cor 13.  It also violates James 3:17 as it is not First Pure and it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

The Fruit of Righteousness is sown in Peace of them that make Peace (James:3:18). And Jesus said that Wisdom is justified of her children. (Matt 11:19).  

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?

Bottomline, I don't see how this behavior is Christ-Like and if this is the way I must express "Truth" then I choose to live without it.  The "truth of my faith" is best expressed by my deeds motivated by Love, not my egoistical instance on my theological correctness.

In His Love, John  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 03:03:53 AM by jfraysse »
I'm smart enough to know that I'm not always smart enough!

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2009, 05:06:26 AM »
The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.  He set it up that way.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 05:08:59 AM »
The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.

I think that may be exactly right Molly, and that's helpful to my understanding.  WE are to love, share the good news.  It's God's plan, He knows how to work it.

This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 05:10:30 AM »
The Gentiles are not the provokers.  They are just doing their thing in Christ.

God is the provoker.

I think that may be exactly right Molly, and that's helpful to my understanding.  WE are to love, share the good news.  It's God's plan, He knows how to work it.

This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

Think about how they persecuted him and why.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 05:12:56 AM »
I may need you to explain your thoughts on it for me to "get it".   :mblush:  I would probably be seeing something different than what you've seen.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2009, 05:15:03 AM »
P.S.  I'm thinking  :happygrin:.  No snarky comments about not hurting myself.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2009, 05:18:36 AM »
Let's see...first off, they were blind.  It had not been given them to understand the things of the Kingdom.

This is interesting.  I think I'll go back and look for a place to split this off from RA's OP.  We're moving on out there with this  :laughing7:.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2009, 05:19:30 AM »
You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3



Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2009, 05:29:53 AM »
This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Exactly Jab.........every time I thought something didn't line up in there, it turned out to be ME that didn't line up, LOL........Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2009, 05:45:57 AM »
You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3

I don't know Molly, it may be, but I've never thought of it that way.  I figured (along with blindness) that their self-righteousness "got the best of them", i.e., in their perception He kept breaking their Laws.  Why, they even picked corn on the Sabbath!  You may be very right with the jealousy piece of that as well, I'm going to have to consider what you've said.  Do you know of any (other) scriptures that illustrate their jealousy?  I've just seen it in the Israel being brought back in as Paul describes the steps in Romans - cast off, Gentiles grafted in, Israel becomes jealous [setting the stage for?] God "salvaging the root", then becoming All in All.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2009, 05:53:26 AM »
This is exactly what I meant earlier.  There are explanations, ways the scriptures fit together, instead of throwing certain ones out that don't fit our understanding.  Thanks Mol!  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Exactly Jab.........every time I thought something didn't line up in there, it turned out to be ME that didn't line up, LOL........Blessings....

You ever see one of those little bobble head dolls?   :yes:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sparrow

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Re: Pray for our President Obama!
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2009, 05:55:06 AM »
The Romans 10 and 11 verses, if interrupted as intended to provoke a fleshly response, is evil in and of itself.  It violates the response of Love to such provocation as described in 1 Cor 13.  It also violates James 3:17 as it is not First Pure and it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

The Fruit of Righteousness is sown in Peace of them that make Peace (James:3:18). And Jesus said that Wisdom is justified of her children. (Matt 11:19). 

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?

Bottomline, I don't see how this behavior is Christ-Like and if this is way I must express "Truth" then I choose to live without it.  The "truth of my faith" is best expressed by my deeds motivated by Love, not my egoistical instance on my theological correctness.

In His Love, John  :HeartThrob:

Yes! This is what I see too, John. This is what I'm talking about!


"provoking to jealousy" seems an archaic thing that perhaps only applied to a person who knew very little of love. Talking about "jealousy" was a primal emotion. But we have moved past that. We now see jealously for WHAT IT IS. It is not a good thing. It's an ugly, resentful thing that dwells in the darkness of carnal man's heart. Jealousy is never a response to bring up in people's hearts.

Now, if GOD works through you and causes other to bring up feelings of longing (for peace,love, basically for God!) than that is God's working in another to draw them to HIM.


Provoking others to jealousy = being boastful.

Love is not boastful.


Perhaps I'll come back to this later. but for now, we'll just have to agree to disagree!  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2009, 05:57:48 AM »
 :cloud9: To Jab........Yep........pretty much what my standard reaction has become to Him rocking my world over another one of my assumptions on what something meant........"smile and nod", LOL.....Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2009, 06:05:49 AM »
I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love).  I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)

I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan.  

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2009, 06:06:06 AM »
You don't think it was jealousy in its worst form?  He could do things they couldn't dream of doing.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

--Mark 3

I don't know Molly, it may be, but I've never thought of it that way.  I figured (along with blindness) that their self-righteousness "got the best of them", i.e., in their perception He kept breaking their Laws.  Why, they even picked corn on the Sabbath!  You may be very right with the jealousy piece of that as well, I'm going to have to consider what you've said.  Do you know of any (other) scriptures that illustrate their jealousy?  I've just seen it in the Israel being brought back in as Paul describes the steps in Romans - cast off, Gentiles grafted in, Israel becomes jealous [setting the stage for?] God "salvaging the root", then becoming All in All.
They hated him, Jab, the way Cain hated Abel.  You like Abel's sacrifice better than mine!  Remember?  So Cain killed Abel out of sheer jealousy.

It's very sad when you look at it that way, really.

I'll look for more scriptures.  They were always trying to trip him up and catch him in a snare--so they would have an excuse to kill him.