Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All

[Molly]

This topic split from "Please Pray for President Obama" - James

When the muslims see Jesus, they will fall in love, just like everybody else does who sees him.

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Who says I hate them?  I don't hate them.

And, the fact that I don't hate them is proof of the living God, since if anyone had a reason to hate them it would be me.

[Molly]

Rose,

I'm tired of excuses given by professing Christians for spreading hatred in the world.   
How can any person even be alive and breathing without the Holy Spirit?  They cannot. 
We were reconciled to God BEFORE WE KNEW OF HIS LOVE, so is everyone else. 
It is high time people believed that.  Salvation is by GRACE, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Anne

Who is spreading hate?  You are seeing things that do not exist, like racism, hate, and fear around every corner.

I don't see anyone here spreading hate.

[sparrow]

I think Yoda said it best....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yY3m9RWMNA

Amen. It's so true.

[WhiteWings]

Well, Cardinal,

If the Christians are going to demand that the Muslims convert, and the Muslims, who obviously believe there is only One Most High God are going to demand that the Christians convert, and the Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, then I guess we are all going to have to kill one another.  It sure looks like it.  Blessed are those who are not afraid of death.

I'm not saying we should press the red button and launch all ICBMs and nuke all islam countries.
But OTOH I also see God in the OT raise/support armies to slay enemies instead of hug them....

[sparrow]

Well, Cardinal,

If the Christians are going to demand that the Muslims convert, and the Muslims, who obviously believe there is only One Most High God are going to demand that the Christians convert, and the Jews believe that they are the chosen ones, then I guess we are all going to have to kill one another.  It sure looks like it.  Blessed are those who are not afraid of death.

I'm not saying we should press the red button and launch all ICBMs and nuke all islam countries.
But OTOH I also see God in the OT raise/support armies to slay enemies instead of hug them....

That was before Jesus came, though.
That was the OLD testament.

Evil isn't overcome with more evil.
Hey, I don't have all the answers, but to me, when we harm others, that only gives them MORE reason to CLING to hatred.
just my opinion.

[jabcat]

I have read some excerpts out of it, and it is definitely not holy, not HS inspired. Just it's inception, which I read about from a PRO Muslim source is enough to show it was not from God.

An angel appeared to him in a cave, with a banner, with the words on it and told him to write them down. Three times he failed to do this, and three times the angel hit him for his disobedience, before Muhammad mentioned to the "angel" he was illiterate. Seems to me an angel of God would have been instructed differently, assuming of course, there was an angel to begin with.

I also read that one of his underage forced child brides said something to the effect of, "I see you have found a religion to accommodate your sin," ie. child molestation and rape.

Muhammad was aware of Jesus being taken from them in a cloud, and therefore he too "ascended" into heaven from Jerusalem. Seems he forgot the part about flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That he and his doctrine of devils is a usurper and counterfeit, should be obvious.

And I don't hate them; if I hated them I would relegate them to remain in ignorance of the Word of the one true God and His Son who died for them as well. If I hated them, I could espouse a false love, ie. the "mantra chant" of the New Age, which is that all paths lead to God, sort of a "I'm Ok, you're Ok", type of doctrine that eliminates the need for the righteousness of the Son.

God is forgiving of our ignorance in trying other paths, but the baptism of John in water, was for REPENTANCE from dead works (other paths), which is why it came before the baptism in the Spirit (where the living HG does the works), and why Jesus told John that it was necessary to fulfill ALL righteousness.

As for laying my life down; anyone that continues in the Word and exchanges what THEY think, for what HE thinks, is laying down their soulish lives, little by little. What I hate about it, is that it takes so long. Many times I have asked Him to just "kill" me now, ie. deliver me of all the tares at once and get it over with, if it meant HE could come in full power and get things here straightened out.

One of the times I did that, He told me He couldn't do that, because if He took everything out of us that was not of Him (in all of us) all at once, we would DIE from the shock of it (don't remove the tares until it's time or you will hurt the wheat?). So plodding along here.........day by day...........Blessings.....

That's pretty much the way I see it too Card.  I just heard on the radio yesterday that a current big thrust in "missions" is to sort of assimilate Christianity with Islam, beginning to use some of the same jargon, calling God Allah, etc.
The heathen and God-haters aren't converted by patting them on the head and telling them they're OK.  IMO, the equation coming from us/THROUGH us from the Father is love AND truth - not compromise.
 
No man comes to the Father but through Yesu.  John 14:6.

[WhiteWings]

I just heard on the radio yesterday that a current big thrust in "missions" is to sort of assimilate Christianity with Islam, beginning to use some of the same jargon, calling God Allah, etc.

I heard that over 2-3 years ago from a retired cardinal or bishop.
If I had to assign a Christian name to allah it would start with "s" or "d".
The same jargon started centuries ago. Even before islam. But that's something for PM because I think it's a bit outside the forum guidelines...

[jabcat]

do it, i'm curious.

[jfraysse]

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Dang, VERY well said, Anne - Sparrow too!  You guys are, indeed, my favorite Liberals!  I admit that I see dimly, but not dimly enough to ignore the obvious core message of Jesus - Understanding God's Love.  If our attitudes are not motivated by Love then they are not of God.

The problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right?

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion!"
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )

BTW, I still Pray FOR Obama and our Leaders as I have for all since I became a believer.  I ask that God's Spirit will guide them in all wisdom.  Frankly, I have not seen many obvious answers to my prayers in this regard yet I'm not clairvoyant enough to make these judgments as of now.  Time will tell, I suppose.

In His Love, John

[Molly]

The problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.

It doesn't have to be that way.  Where in the New Testament does Jesus say hate your enemies? Or kill your enemies?  Or kill your perceived enemies?

Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus even lift a finger against anyone [except in the Temple, and people could get out of his way there].

He stands there and lets the High Priest slap him across the face without retaliation.

If people would just read their Bibles, we wouldn't have these gross misperceptions, which are fed to us by wolves in sheep's clothing.

[jfraysse]

Yes, Miss Molly, I agree.  Jesus never demonstrated retribution, in fact, quite the opposite, that is, unconditional forgiveness! Praying for the forgiveness of those who mocked Him, beat and whipped Him and nailed His feet and hands to the cross, if THIS is not Love, then I do not know what is.  Jesus shows us the true nature of our Heavenly Father.  The Life exemplified by Jesus and His Teachings are not the problem.  It's the others things that I listed in the context of Absolute Truth.

[sparrow]

When you see Christ in every person, then you will understand the love of God.  How can the Muslims see Jesus in you if you hate them?

Christ in you, your hope of glory.....

Anne

Dang, VERY well said, Anne - Sparrow too!  You guys are, indeed, my favorite Liberals!  I admit that I see dimly, but not dimly enough to ignore the obvious core message of Jesus - Understanding God's Love.  If our attitudes are not motivated by Love then they are not of God.

The problem boils down to each religion's version of Absolute Truth.  Orthodox Christianity is no worse (nor better) than the rest.  But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right?

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion!"
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )

BTW, I still Pray FOR Obama and our Leaders as I have for all since I became a believer.  I ask that God's Spirit will guide them in all wisdom.  Frankly, I have not seen many obvious answers to my prayers in this regard yet I'm not clairvoyant enough to make these judgments as of now.  Time will tell, I suppose.

In His Love, John

Amen to the bolded John! As for the rest of your post, I agree with absolutely everything you just said 100%.


oh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

[WhiteWings]

oh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

Even if you use fine print I see you are telling lies mrs tweetie...
You are dependant on Father -> healthcare is eat something from the tree

[sparrow]

oh,  p.s. I'm not a liberal... I'm more of an "independent", if anything.

Even if you use fine print I see you are telling lies mrs tweetie...
You are dependant on Father -> healthcare is eat something from the tree

    

[Cardinal]

But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right?

  Actually, that's exactly what He intended (minus the killing of course). The covenantal blessings we are supposed to be walking in, are to provoke those that are the still under the letter, ie. those WITHOUT the spiritual circumcision of the heart going on, to jealousy.


      Romans 10:19 KJV
      But I say , Did not Israel know ? First Moses saith , I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    
      Romans 11:11 KJV
      I say then , Have they stumbled that they should fall ? God forbid : but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy .

Blessings....

[sheila]

   He rules with a rod of iron

   when the spirit speaks it breaks our flesh like pottery


   Ezekiel 20;37

    I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will

bring you into the bond of the covenant. I will purge you of

 those who revolt and rebel against me

  . Although I will bring them out of the land they are living,yet,

 they will not enter the land of Israel [those who revolt and

rebel against me; THAT wicked generation in all men]  


    Rev 2;27  He will rule them with an iron sceptor,he will dash

 them to peices like pottery[clay vessels] just as I have

received authority from My Father


    Rev 11;1I was given a reed like a measuring ROD and was

 told,'Go and measure the temple of God and the alter and

count the worshippers there.Do not measure the outer court,

Do not measure it because it has been given to the Gentiles,

they will trample on the Holy city for 42 months


   Rev 19;15  And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it He should smite the nations; and He shall rule them

with a rod of Iron. And He threadeth the winepress of the

 feirceness and wrath of Almighty God


    Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven...

  for this reason the outer court of the temple is not measured

[counts for nothing] Muslim flesh american flesh,etc is as

nothing[it is uncircumcized flesh due to be cut away from all

God's spiritual children.]


  Our clay vessel is our flesh and it is due to be broken by the

rod of iron,and broken it will be by the SPIRIT OF ALMIGHTY

 GOD.

  When the spirit of God speaks to a man,He listens, when the

 Glory of the Lord fills the temple no man can enter.

  He comes suddenly to His temple[your body]

   He is no respector of persons, national flesh means nothing

  to Him

   Jeremiah 19  This is what the Lord says;"Go and buy a clay

jar from a potter.Take along some of the elders of the people.

and of the preists,and go out to the valley of Ben Hinnom

  NEAR THE ENTRANCE OF THE POTSHERD GATE

   'Hear the word of the Lord O"kings of Judah and people of

Jerusalem. I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will

 make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have

forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods.......


verse10  THEN BREAK THE JAR WHILE THOSE WHO GO WITH

YOU ARE WATCHING,and say to them I WILL SMASH THIS

NATION AND THIS CITY JUST AS THIS POTTER'S JAR IS

SMASHED AND CAN NOT BE REPAIRED.


    Th above is an example of God's mind in regard to any

fleshly nation that rejects His SON. Your flesh,my flesh

  verse 7.....and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds

[dead flesh] of the air[ demonic prince of the air] AND THE

BEASTS OF THE EARTH......I will make them eat the flesh of

their sons and daughters and they will eat one anothers flesh

[devour one another over fleshly divisons] during the stress of

the seige imposed on them by the enemies,who SEEK THEIR

LIVES


  There is no Jew or GREEK in the SPIRIT


      

[sparrow]

But eventually, the Dogma of Absolute Truth, which includes "promises" of blessings, favor, lands, protection, retribution and eternal bless, will cause an "Us verses Them" scenario and then the killing starts.  I mean, why not?  What fellowship hath darkness with light, right?

  Actually, that's exactly what He intended (minus the killing of course). The covenantal blessings we are supposed to be walking in, are to provoke those that are the still under the letter, ie. those WITHOUT the spiritual circumcision of the heart going on, to jealousy.


      Romans 10:19 KJV
      But I say , Did not Israel know ? First Moses saith , I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    
      Romans 11:11 KJV
      I say then , Have they stumbled that they should fall ? God forbid : but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy .

Blessings....

Not so sure I agree with that Cardinal. That doesn't sound real loving. You think our purpose is provoking others to sin?? Jealousy is an ugly, carnal thing. I don't get what you are saying.

[sparrow]

dp.

[rosered]

 
 
  Good posting Sis   Shelia ,
 
  God is no respecter of person .......

[jabcat]

I agree with different aspects of various people's posts.  I do believe Spirit revealed scriptures are important, and as I said earlier, I believe it's love AND truth.  Truth in love.  

I also believe the scripture Cardinal quoted is exactly right.  Jealousy in terms of "I want that too".  It's right there that it's God's plan, the whole cutting off Israel for a season, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."

International Standard Version (©2008)
Again I ask, "Did Israel not understand?" Moses was the first to say, "I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that doesn't understand."

James.

[sparrow]

I'm sorry but I can't go along with a teaching that says to provoke others to jealousy.

Jealousy is a very ugly thing.

I think the picture this is painting is incorrect.

Provoking others to have a keen interest about WHERE your peace is coming from, (faith in God) but NOT provoking others to jealousy. Jealousy is wrong. I don't think it's the right teaching to say that we are to provoke others to do something wrong.

Perhaps the word "jealousy" needs to be defined here before we go further.

[Raggedy Anne]

Thank you, Sheila.  Your posts always bless me.

 
Anne

[Molly]

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

--Rom 11

"provoke [them] to jealousy"

G3863
παραζηλόω
parazēloō
par-ad-zay-lo'-o
From G3844 and G2206; to stimulate alongside, that is, excite to rivalry: - provoke to emulation (jealousy).


12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

[jabcat]

I'm sorry but I can't go along with a teaching that says to provoke others to jealousy.

Jealousy is a very ugly thing.

I think the picture this is painting is incorrect.

Provoking others to have a keen interest about WHERE your peace is coming from, (faith in God) but NOT provoking others to jealousy. Jealousy is wrong. I don't think it's the right teaching to say that we are to provoke others to do something wrong.

Perhaps the word "jealousy" needs to be defined here before we go further.

that's why i gave a couple different translations.  Young's (literal) translates it as jealousy, as does the Christian Bible, perhaps the most literal.  The concorant version as well, all literal to the original greek.

Merriam Websters describes jealous as;
1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness
2 : hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
3 : vigilant in guarding a possession <new colonies were jealous of their new independence

The "softest" interpretation (and maybe the correct one  ) I guess would be what I bolded above.  I just know the scriptures say what they say, so I believe whatever I believe needs to check out with them, not me trying to make the scriptures say what I think.  Am I ever guilty of that?  Sure.  But to my own shame and regress.

I personally think sparrow, if what you're doing is trying to reconcile that verse with many others about not being jealous, envious, etc. then that's a good thing.  The scriptures agree, not contradict, and I believe the problem is usually my own level of understanding and acceptance, and whatever degree of blindness I'm experiencing at the time.  Also though, I think of how God does use temporary evil for His purposes of eventual outcome of good.  Don't mean to open up another whole discussion on that (the whole sovereignty thing) - there are plenty other threads on that one  .

Anyway, blessings to you, James.

[jabcat]

Oh yeah, the OP.  Has anybody prayed today for our president?  I don't think I have.     I need to do that.