Author Topic: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All  (Read 7723 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2009, 06:09:18 AM »

it sure looks like the provokers are taking pleasure in unrighteousness which flies in the face of 2Th:2:12.

Tell me what Peace or Wisdom have we seen demonstrated by provoking others and/or Nations to Jealousy?  How has this idea advanced the ministry of Christ?


Brother John, I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone's making this claim (if anyone is, please specify).  As in my post above, I personally see it as God using what He chooses to use, as we continue to live for Him in (His) righteousness, peace, joy, love, etc.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 06:20:55 AM by jabcat »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2009, 06:13:33 AM »
 :cloud9: And we are all spiritual Israel, which is why the types and shadows work so well for us, so not a big stretch really, to see that THAT type and shadow also applies. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2009, 06:15:05 AM »
On this day, 46 years ago, when I was a mere 8 months old, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, most likely by a combination of the MOB and the CIA.   I do pray that President Obama's enemies be scattered and be brought to nothing.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2009, 06:16:46 AM »
His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2009, 06:18:02 AM »
On this day, 46 years ago, when I was a mere 8 months old, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, most likely by a combination of the MOB and the CIA.   I do pray that President Obama's enemies be scattered and be brought to nothing.

Anne
Why would anyone kill him?  He's going along with them.  JFK was not.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2009, 06:19:21 AM »
Hey you two, I split this thread so as not to keep sidetracking Anne's.  Get this back over there  :laughing7:

 :HeartThrob:

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2009, 06:22:36 AM »
His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Who are "them", exactly?

I have met many people who did not really seem to be terribly perturbed by Jesus' existence.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2009, 06:24:54 AM »
His [Jesus] very existence--who he is--provokes them.  It just sets their teeth on edge.

Who are "them", exactly?

I have met many people who did not really seem to be terribly perturbed by Jesus' existence.
We were talking about the Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes, Jews being provoked to jealousy..

It's not the Gentiles provoking them, it's God, it's Christ.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2009, 06:42:11 AM »
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

provoked---> 65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
      "He is worthy of death," they answered.

67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"


--Mat 26

« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 06:47:16 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2009, 06:55:20 AM »
Really, I'm not trying to provoke you  :laughing7:  I'm with you, but I'm exploring the jealousy piece.  Do you think they were provoked to jealousy, or were their self-righteous toes stepped on?  Maybe both :dontknow:

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2009, 06:57:18 AM »
Really, I'm not trying to provoke you  :laughing7:  I'm with you, but I'm exploring the jealousy piece.  Do you think they were provoked to jealousy, or were their self-righteous toes stepped on?  Maybe both :dontknow:
I think they are out of their minds with jealousy lol.  Look how they are acting.  They have lost control.

That's why they persecute him, that's why they persecute us.

That's why Cain killed Abel--jealousy provoked to murder.

Not quite sure what God is accomplishing with this, though.

Maybe it's just --the murder of innocents convicts the world.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:01:02 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2009, 07:21:13 AM »
15All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

 1Then the high priest asked him, "Are these charges true?"

,,,,,,,,,,

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered himó 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." provoked--->  54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

provoked---> 57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

--Acts 7




11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:28:50 AM by Molly »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2009, 07:27:14 AM »
I always understood it to mean "somebody has something that you don't have and you want to have it for yourself very much."  The something that Israel would see is a people who are not a nation and who don't understand like they do, and yet, they have the manifest presence of the only God attesting to their Word with signs and wonders folllowing.  Walking in the miracle working anointing of the Holy Spirit is something that Israel wants very much and yet don't have.  They're being provoked to jealousy is that they know what they see on the Christian walking in the power and glory of God working with them in those things only He can do and they know what was theirs, what they lost and want back very much.  That the followers of Jesus have the real thing makes them want it very much, it makes them jealous.

There are things about God that are wrong in other ways.  Like being worshipped.  Only God is to be worshipped.  Or "vanity," something repulsive in people, in God is a right thing.  I mean His is very vain in the sense that He wants to be seen and admired...worshipped.  Like Jealousy, or envy...

James 4:4-6 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Are you not aware that the friendship of this world is enmity with God? Whosoever, then should intend to be a friend of the world is constituted an enemy of God.
5 Or are you supposing that the scripture is saying this for naught? Is the spirit which dwells in us longing to envy?
6 Yet greater is the grace He is giving. Wherefore He is saying, God "the proud is resisting, yet to the humble He is giving grace."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2009, 04:54:08 PM »
7And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.

provoked----> 8And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?

 9And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.

 10And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

 11And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall with it. And David avoided out of his presence twice.

12And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.

---1 Sam 18



[Saul was very] "wroth"

H2734
חרה
chârâh
khaw-raw'
A primitive root (compare H2787); to glow or grow warm; figuratively (usually) to blaze up, of anger, zeal, jealousy: - be angry, burn, be displeased, X earnestly, fret self, grieve, be (wax) hot, be incensed, kindle, X very, be wroth. See H8474.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 05:03:11 PM by Molly »

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2009, 05:04:39 PM »
sorry, I posted in the wrong thread :mshock:
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 05:20:50 PM by Shadow »

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2009, 05:06:56 PM »
I think that there can be different types of jealousy. I remember as a child my "mate" Steph was very jealous of my relationship with my father and did lots of nasty things to me as a result of that jealousy. That jealousy could have motivated her to try to seek that relationship with her own father, but instead of trying to bring herself up to the place I was at, she tried to bring me down to her level of misery.

In terms of our relationship with Father, if non believers see our blessings as children of God then we want them to be jealous enough to seek for that relationship themselves. Unfortunately most unbelievers just try to bring us down and make us as miserable as them. So I can maybe see how that jealousy is a righteous thing that has been corrupted like everything else.

 :2c:

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2009, 05:20:42 PM »
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

 23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

 24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

 25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

 26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

 27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

provoked---> 28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

 29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

30But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

31And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.


 


--Luke 4
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 05:26:00 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2009, 05:27:24 PM »
I never realized before that Jesus was telling them so clearly that they were going to be thrown out of the kingdom--which for them was physical and a bloodline.

Man.

It's the difference between King Saul and King David.

They think if they can kill him and his followers--they can have the kingdom for themselves.

Man. :mshock:
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 05:32:39 PM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2009, 06:07:32 PM »
 :cloud9:  You know, Molly, that's an interesting thought. I bet that's what Cain thought too........even farther "back" than that, no doubt the motive of Satan's heart in the killing of Adam and Eve. And he did in a sense get rule of the kingdom, but the lesser glory one, the corruptible one. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2009, 07:11:08 PM »
Jealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.


Y'know another problem with this whole thing is how easily people like prosperity preachers, etc. will use this teaching to further fleece their flock. I've seen it plenty of times before... anytime someone questions their finances, their extravagances, they talk to their flock about the "jealous spirit" that has those people who are questioning them. "well, little flock are we not to 'provoke others to jealousy'? Look! It says so right there!"  :msealed: How does their flock respond afterall, to their misuse of funds when the sentence starts out "God blessed me with.." Get out from under carnal man's authority. And submit yourself to the ONLY authority.


Have a mindset of being eager to show others the peace and love in your heart and what God has done for you so that they may be drawn to the Father. That is about as far as we should be going in "provoking others to jealousy". This phrase is really messed up, imo. I think perhaps if people get the right spirit of the message, it will be ok. Meaning, to share with people what God has done for you as far as peace/love in your heart in order to STIR IN THEM a longing for this. But there are many who will pervert it. And you see it everyday. And how easily it will be perverted! "provoke others to jealousy".
Just my :2c:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2009, 07:50:31 PM »
BUMP  From Jabcat :icon_flower:

Just In case certain folk missed this first time about...cos it seems some are going round in circles....

"I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love). I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)
I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan."



« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 08:59:59 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2009, 07:51:44 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Jealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.

It's not a 'teaching,' Sparrow, it's a few lines in the Bible which we are trying to understand.  Nor does it say that we are to purposely provoke others to jealousy.  I think it is saying that just our presence does it because of Christ.  It is Christ that is provoking them, not us.

It's interesting where you used the words, 'stir up a longing.'   That reminded me of the healing waters at Bethel, where the angel would stir up the waters first, and then the sick would go in to be healed.  Maybe this is what this is doing in the best case, stirring up their waters so they will desire Him, too.  But, in the case of those outside the kingdom, there will be no healing, only weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a provocation to a murderous jealousy. To me, it explains a lot of behavior I see.  Clearly, this is something God is doing, not us.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.






« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:56:20 PM by Molly »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2009, 07:52:49 PM »


BUMP from From Jabcat :icon_flower:

Just In case certain folk missed this first time about...cos it seems some are going round in circles....

I think there's more agreement on this topic than may appear on the surface.  Looking at posts, there seems to be a consensus that WE are to express love (I've added sharing the truth in love). I don't think anyone has said we should try to agitate people, or pridefully flaunt our salvation so they'll be jealous.  (I think that's part of the sticking point, and generally, I don't think it's really present.)I think what's really being said is that it's God that will bring Israel to jealousy - as part of His overall plan. 





Taffy, To the bold...perhaps you are right, bro.
Peace to ya.. :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2009, 07:56:36 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
Jealousy is resentment. As people following Christ, we should never desire to provoke anyone to jealousy. If this is your mindset, how can you possibly have the fruits of the spirit? How could you possibly be humble? If God, for some reason, wants to use your peace and your love that He has put in your heart, to move someone to wish they had your peace, that is God's job! And God will do this! Sure! But many will use this teaching, pervert it, and slowly become arrogant and boastful.

It's not a 'teaching,' Sparrow, it's a few lines in the Bible which we are trying to understand.  Nor does it say that we are to purposely provoke others to jealousy.  I think it is saying that just our presence does it because of Christ.  It is Christ that is provoking them, not us.

It's interesting where you used the words, 'stir up a longing.'   That reminded me of the healing waters at Bethel, where the angel would stir up the waters first, and then the sick would go in to be healed.  Maybe this is what this is doing in the best case, stirring up their waters so they will desire Him, too.  But, in the case of those outside the kingdom, there will be no healing, only weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a provacation to a murderous jealousy. To me, it explains a lot of behavior I see.  Clearly, this is something God is doing, not us.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



The bolded:
I don't know about that, Molly!


And I said "teaching" because it IS a teaching.
A teaching that you hear amongst certain circles.


But, like I said... I think that Taffy may be right.
Perhaps most here are perhaps in agreement possibly.
But molly... "provocation to murderous jeaousy"... sis, I don't think that is what this is about.
Is it?
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split from Pray for Pres. Thread - Jealousy in God's Plan to be All in All
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2009, 08:12:47 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
The bolded:
I don't know about that, Molly!


And I said "teaching" because it IS a teaching.
A teaching that you hear amongst certain circles.


But, like I said... I think that Taffy may be right.
Perhaps most here are perhaps in agreement possibly.
But molly... "provocation to murderous jeaousy"... sis, I don't think that is what this is about.
Is it?

I am so lucky to never have been exposed to all these 'teachings' lol.  Yes, it is what it is about.  Did you read the scriptures I posted?  They are tearing their clothes, screaming, covering their ears, spitting on him, slapping him, trying to throw him off a cliff, stoning him, throwing spears at him while he is playing the harp.  What would you call that?  It certainly is murderous.  And, it certainly is a provocation of a  very strong emotion that they have no control over.



provoked--->5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

 6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

---Gen 4


All of these passages are very consistent.  Their behaviour is all the same.  And, this is so likely the case that Jesus even warns his disciples this will happen to them because of him.


11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

--Mat 5



Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.





« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 08:28:41 PM by Molly »