return-revealed-manifested

[ded2daworld]

Reading 1 peter 1 today and was struck by the fact that peter never once mentioned the return of Jesus, He did however mention "when Christ be revealed to you" 3 times and "when Christ be manifested to you"
I wonder why the difference? Help me out please?

[lomarah]

Those who hear from God say that Christ is returning in His many membered body. That means US! Which would be the same as Christ being manifested to us. "When we see Him, we will be like Him." So the return of Christ is His manifestation in His many membered body, at least that is what those who hear tell me. (I believe them, and it's exciting!!!)

[jabcat]

ded, I'd personally guess it's one isolated wording, and there are other scrips to also include.

Do you think 1 John 3:2 is related, as well as Colossians 3:4 and I Corinthians 15 enter into it?  My understanding is, when Jesus ushers in the next age, He is revealed to us, literally appears to us ("we will be like Him", because we will "see Him as He is" 1 John 3:2) - then we are transformed into His likeness, we will be as He is, upon His return and our miraculous transformation.   Col. 3:4. (from the extremely literal Christian Bible - "When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory."  (notice 'together with' Him)


, I could be wrong.  There are different interpretations as to what that means, and as Lomorah pointed out and has been discussed before, some believe that will be either before or without Christ's literal return.  I personally believe it will be as described in Acts 1:1 - "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."  And I Cor. 15 - [THIS is apparently a miraculous and sudden event, and will be accompanied by a resurrection of the dead in Christ]  "..we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.."   Blessings.   

[ded2daworld]

It just seemed strange to me that he would use the terms revealed and manifested rather than return. I don't think the word return was used at all in that chapter. I believe God has a reason to choose the words he uses to mean what he says. I'll see if I get more input. Maaybe something totally off the wall will jump out at me

[jabcat]

I checked the Greek Interlinear.  Interestingly in vs. 7 and 9, the Greek word is the same, and literally supposedly translate as From-covering/unveiling.  However, in the actual text, the GI translates them differently - once as appearing in vs. 7, and the other time as revelation in vs. 13.

Then, in vs. 20 it's a totally different word, translated as manifest.  I see there it's talking of Jesus being "hidden" in the OT, then made apparent/manifested as the Messiah and "available" for belief in Him unto salvation IN THIS AGE.  On the other hand, vs. 7 and 13 seem to be talking about a coming at the beginning of the NEXT age.   Yes, interesting.  I'll check some more references. 

7 might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
apokaluyei
apokalupsei
G602
n_ Dat Sg f
FROM-COVERing
unveiling

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

apokaluyei
apokalupsei
G602
n_ Dat Sg f
FROM-COVERing
unveiling

,
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
fanerwqentos
phanerOthentos
G5319
vp Aor Pas Gen Sg m
BEING-made-APPEAR
being-manifested

[jabcat]

I don't know if any of this helps or not, but I'm trying.   

This is from The Christian Bible, the most literal translation I know of;

7  so that the proof of your faith, which is much more precious than perishable
gold which is being proved by fire, might be found to result in praise,
glory, and honor at the revealing of Yesu (the Anointed One) [the beginning
of the LastAge].

13 For this reason, you+ must wrap your belt tight around the waist
of your mind [ready for work], be continually sober [in spirit], and put
your+ hope completely on the favor that is going to be brought to you+ at
the revealing of Yesu (the Anointed One) [the beginning of the Last Age]!

20 On the one hand, He was known beforehand before
the foundation of the world; yet, on the other hand, He was made
apparent in these last times because of you

[reFORMer]

Col. 3:4. (from the extremely literal Christian Bible - "When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory."  (notice 'together with' Him)

When I was born of the Spirit and since then, the anoint-ing, the anoint-ed, this appears to me and brought about the appearing of a new me, something coming out of God Who always was, is and will be.  The appearing of Him that brings an appearing of the me in Him is an on-going occurrence.  This leads to an example of what I dislike about the Christian Bible.  They insert an interpretation about the Christ appearing. "[At the beginning of the Last Age]" is what they say.  In addition, there are other explanations beyond the one I gave which don't agree with their comment.

[jabcat]

I don't like that part either.  I've said in the past I wish they would have just stuck to the translating.  If they'd done that, I believe the actual translation is very good.  I've thought about going through and marking out much of the interpretation - though I believe some of it is excellent [Lazarus and rich man, for example].  In this particular quoted instance, I agree with part of their interpretation, and part I don't.  I agree that it's a next age - I don't agree that it's the start of the "Last Age".  I could be wrong, but I believe there are ages to come.

 I know there are disagreements about it and various interpretations on the "last days/end times".   Didn't some of them start with the 1940's Latter Rain movement?  Also, I doubt most of us aren't going to be easily "talked out of" our personal views/understandings on it.  Imagine that.     I also think there are many areas of agreement though, in the midst of the disagreements.   I do agree we are growing more into His image, as He determines.  I too believe He has appeared many times, and continues to appear - and that He appears in us and through us and lives in us.  I don't use the term "second coming".  Yet, I personally believe in a literal appearing of Yeshua to usher in the next age.  After looking at various beliefs on it, I tend toward a view that's somewhat close to what I believe has been a "traditional" interpretation of Christendom through the centuries (until the last one).  For instance, going back a ways, I believe the apostles were looking for His literal return in their lifetimes, including Paul.  So I certainly don't know when it will be - or even exactly what it will look like.  It will be miraculous.   

The following isn't from the Christian Bible  :

 I Cor. 15 - "..we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.."

Blessings.

[jabcat]

Reading 1 peter 1 today and was struck by the fact that peter never once mentioned the return of Jesus, He did however mention "when Christ be revealed to you" 3 times and "when Christ be manifested to you"
I wonder why the difference? Help me out please?

ded, maybe a lousy reference, but maybe at least some of it's true    and may address at least a little, your OP. From wikipedia;

"Several different terms are used to refer to the..coming of Christ.

Epiphany
In the New Testament the Greek word ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia, appearing) is used five times to refer to the return of Christ.

Parousia
The Greek New Testament uses the Greek term parousia (παρουσία, meaning "arrival", "coming", or "presence") twenty-four times, seventeen of them concerning Christ.  [I personally find the following noteworthy, in that it described a literal, physical appearing.]  The word is also used six times referring to individuals: Stephanas, Fortunatus and Achaicus [1Co.16:17], Titus[2Co. 7:6-72] and of Paul himself [2Co. 10:10] [Phil 1:26] [2:12] and one time referring to the "coming of the lawless one".[2Thes 2:9]

In Thayer's Lexicon, the Greek word parousia is defined as Strong's G3952:
...In the N. T. [New Testament] esp. [especially] of the advent, i.e., the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.[2]
And in the Bauer-Danker Lexicon:
...of Christ, and nearly always of his Messianic Advent in glory to judge the world at the end of this age.

Adolf Deissmann (1908)[5] showed that the Greek word "parousia" was used as early as the 3rd century BC to describe the visit of a king or dignitary to a city arranged in order the show his magnificence to the people. The Roman Advent Coins struck by the cities of Corinth and Patras for Nero's visit reveals the correspondence between the Greek "parousia" and the Latin "Adventus" and their relationship to the Greek word "epiphany" that means "appearing"."


Hope that helps.  You've raised an interesting question though as to the use of various words.

[ded2daworld]

Thanks Jab. Your input has been invaluable.
I'm still mulling it over in my mind.
Perhaps It's like this: It's one thing to SEE a magic trick.
It's a totally different thing to have a magic trick Revealed to you.

Peter may be encouraging us to not only rejoice at the return of Jesus that "every eye will see"
but also the revealing of him when humanity finally sees the truth about the Truth.
Not only we but ET'ers and non-believers shall see him for what he truly is
because even we are still seeing him as if through a muddy windshield. (Jeff paraphrase of glass darkly)

[Paul L]

Reading 1 peter 1 today and was struck by the fact that peter never once mentioned the return of Jesus, He did however mention "when Christ be revealed to you" 3 times and "when Christ be manifested to you"
I wonder why the difference? Help me out please?

Read his second epistle, it is filled with references to the return of Christ. I'm unable to discern if there is a break in time between the two epistles, I read directly through them as if there is no break, but maybe somebody else has seen something different. 

What is really interesting when you get right to the very end of Peter's 2nd epistle, he accedes all authority of knowledge to the Apostle Paul concerning the prophecies of the return of Christ & the end of this age, see 2 Peter 3: 15-16.

[lomarah]

Col. 3:4. (from the extremely literal Christian Bible - "When the Anointed One, who is our Life, appears [at the beginning of the Last Age], then you too will appear together with Him in glory."  (notice 'together with' Him)

When I was born of the Spirit and since then, the anoint-ing, the anoint-ed, this appears to me and brought about the appearing of a new me, something coming out of God Who always was, is and will be.  The appearing of Him that brings an appearing of the me in Him is an on-going occurrence.  This leads to an example of what I dislike about the Christian Bible.  They insert an interpretation about the Christ appearing. "[At the beginning of the Last Age]" is what they say.  In addition, there are other explanations beyond the one I gave which don't agree with their comment.

Awesome!!! 

[sheila]

...I can't help thinking that the 'return,revealed and manifested" of the Christ..is in to relation with the

  things 'hidden' in the Christ. the Holy spirit[annointing] speaking  of things pertaining to Him

  and the subsequent revealing..returning of the Glory of God..revealing of His Glory and the truth

  manifesting to us...as well as..the revealing of the falling away/the glory departing..and the Glory

  returning.    'in the last days I shall pour out my spirit on ALL FLESH.......LOOK TO ME AND BE SAVED

   ALL YE ENDS OF THE EARTH[the earth will wear out like a garment[our flesh mortal vessel]

  and we shall be clothed with immortality. All in Adam have acoarse in this realm..that ends with

  the laying down of this which is mortal[cross].  He has told us the end..from the beginning..the

  Lamb slain before the founding of this world...the seed of the woman that bruises the head of the serpent

..through His death..destroying him who brings death.Death where is your victory? Death is swallowed

  up forever...neither death nor life nor angels can seperate us from the Love of God in Christ

   what if...like the Christ the firstfruit of the dead....all men who have died...are resurrected in Christ

  and born again from Above? and through their death..just as Christ..have the victory over death..would

  not the law be fulfilled? all men appointed to die once?/all men bound in sin..even he who committed

  a sin unto death? then the judgement of God in the free gift of grace and eternal life given that

  those resurrected receive a new spirit and His law written in their hearts and be raised up in the image

  of Christ.

   Now those called of Him now..in this realm..that receive the token of their inheritance here..are to be a

 vessel of honour and mercy to declare the Glory of God and the mercy of God in this matter..and to comfort

  His people[all in Adam who drink the cup of wrath pertaining to disobediance and sin]  to know that

  God cut the days of wrath short in His son..lest no flesh be saved..and that He has DECLARED THAT

  IN THE LAST DAYS I SHALL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH.

   It is God's SPIRIT THAT SANCTIFIES AND MAKES HOLY.....  now He preserves a remnant on earth...

   a 'token' of the fullness...this 'token'  resurrects the dead,heals of all afflictions,cast out demons..handles

  serpents..opens deaf ears,mute tongues,blind eyes calls those dead out of the tombs

.writes His law of love in the minds and hearts  in ALL IT'S FULLNESS..and CLOTHES IN THE INCORRUPTIBLE

   Does Not His Spirit BEAR WITTNESS OF THE POWER AND GLORY OF GOD? And speak of HIS RETURN

  IN POWER AND GLORY OF HIS FATHER? And what is this 'RETURN" of the Glory of God,but the turning

 of the heart of the Father unto the Children,and the heart of the children unto the Father..and the turning away

  of the wrath of God..unto mercy and Love.

  the covenant curses that come upon disobediant man is the wrath[evil contrast] the blessings for obediance

 is the good...the law of sin and death in man's flesh/Adam..brings the fullness of such in death..the spirit

  of God and Christ and obediance brings life. The right to the TOL comes through the promised seed...

  to RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS DEAD BROTHER[ADAM]UNTO ETERNAL LIFE AND THE GLORIOUS

  FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD.

   How many ends of the earth are they? Some of us have already reached the end of our earth..and with

  the token become a new creature New Earth..with NEW HEAVENS RULING US........

   Yet, there is also a fullness of times..and a harvest on the earth...the End..ripeness..each with it's

  fullness of fruit...sin with it's wage..death..and Christ with it's gift..eternal life.....but I AM convinced

  that nothing can seperate us from the Love of God shown in Christ....neither death..nor life? what..

  those resurrected to life shall not be seperated from Christ?..nor things which are..or will be[lof?]

  there are those to whom He manifested when He lay down His life...there are also those to whom He manifested

  not in the flesh[John for one] and many here. Communion with the Holy spirit..as it reveals,leads,counsels

  is GOD WITH US[Immanuel]  the angel of His presence...a pillar of fire and a cloud of His Glory...it

  leads us in the wilderness of this world..unto the death of the wicked generation[sin tares rebellion and

faithlessness]..and the entering into  all the promises of God[eternal life/fullness]

[lomarah]

Ohhhhhh yeahhhhhhh!!!!! 

[jabcat]

I think we can get too carried away with either "side of it", while shutting out the other.  I believe some "second coming'ers"  often ignore what He will do in ALL of mankind.  As I said earlier to reF, I believe we're growing in His likeness, maturing, and also that He will be revealed in each of us - and as sheila said, that righteousness will cover the ends of the earth!      However, to say that occurs without His literal return to usher this in is, in my veiled view, ignoring some other clear scriptures.  As the following posts suggest, I've personally come to believe it's a combination of the two.

I could be wrong, but  AFAIK, believers all the way back to Paul and the original 12, were looking for Jesus' literal return - until the Latter Rain movement in the 1940's that started teaching mankind would turn into immortality without Jesus being directly present.  It seems to me there are specific scriptures, written in the first and second century, that teach otherwise.  Paul either wanted to die to go be with the Lord, and/or taught the ecclesias to be looking for Christ's return - "to be present with Him is gain".  Either way, it's nothing to divide over.  Everyone's welcome to their view. :)

Peter may be encouraging us to not only rejoice at the return of Jesus that "every eye will see"
but also the revealing of him when humanity finally sees the truth about the Truth.

Read his second epistle, it is filled with references to the return of Christ.

[ded2daworld]

I thought Paul made it clear when "this mortal shall put on immortality"
Surely no one believes we will attain perfection in this life.
Good grief - don't they realize if anyone starts to even think they are
getting close, it just shows how far away they still are.
Even if someone could possibly not sin in thought word or deed for a few days
(I did this once - unconcious in a hospital ) being human, they would be proud of it.
 

[jabcat]

Some do believe that, and can provide long lists of reasons why.  I really don't want to go into that again in depth on the boards.  Everyone has their own view, understanding, interpretation of the scriptures to support their particular point of view.  There are threads that can be searched on the boards that cover it if one wants to read more about the different "sides" of it.  It's divisive if followed to its nth degree.  We don't need to divide.  We believe Jesus is the Savior of the world, and He's our commonality.  Beyond that, we all see through a glass darkly (at least I believe if Paul did, then we all certainly do).  Jesus is Lord, God will be All in All.  He's the One that will get us there, directing our path.      

[jabcat]

To your OP again ded...I believe Peter was just looking at it from a little different angle, showing the piece of it perhaps of Christ filling us completely, (even on the way to Him being All in All perhaps?).  As Paul L pointed out, then the next book of Peter sort of shifts gears/perspective, and talks about it from the other angle.  IMO, it's a need to put it all together to try to arrive at a fuller picture.   

[sheila]

 I see the  secound coming..as Him returning to take us to the place He has prepared for us..to always

  dwell with the Lord.  He speaks of his appearing again...seperate/apart from sin[return in Glory]

  now, Paul and Jude prophesy about the lawless one and his coming into the body of Christ[sin]

  Christ's body bearing death/sin in it's flesh[as often as ye eat and drink of it ye herald the death

  of Christ/the saints were overcome/babylon.by His stripes we are healed

  He comes to save us from/take away our sins...this is how He appears[come out of her my people..and

  I will take you in[to dwell with Him forever..lest ye receive of her plagues[death/disease/afflictions....

  cage of demons/unclean spirits]and judgement]  vessels of wrath have sin in them..that is what vessels

  of wrath[sin entered] fitted for destruction[death] are...mortal clay vessels[with evil contrast spirit in them]

   the spirits of just men made perfect..return unto the Father...the vessel of wrath returns unto the dust from

  which it came/of which the serpent seed consumed all of it's life[wages of sin are death]..bringing forth

  all the curses on the earth/briars/thorns..etc that which is burnt up in the LOF. All in Adam bear the

 corrupt image and the incorruptible....Christ in essence seperates the good from the evil in the tokogae

  through obeying His Father and doing exactly and saying exactly what His Father tells Him and laying

  down His life willingly[Lamb slain BEFORE the founding of the world] the end/harvest is also the seperating

  of the good from the evil.  when sin entered..man's corruptible flesh became one with[know] GOOD AND EVIL

   God has a law against mixing..as it brings corruption and death....garments were not to be of two fabrics..

  believers and unbelievers were not to be yoked togather..but here God has that which is 'good' as declared by Him

  even Adam and the creation...mixed with evil. In His law He declared certain foods clean or unclean...

  in regard to the spirit of life at work in the creature..devourer of flesh or eat pulse,wild or tame,gentle or

 ferocious..mated for life or promiscous.   There is no evil in God..for He is love..and as such,man in His

 image of theETERNAL incorrupt ONE must be seperated fromTemporal/ sin/corruptible..

  Manifestation of the Sons of God..and indeed the whole creation is the appearing apart from sin and corruption.

  lions lay with lambs...the wildness,ferociousness and incontenence of the whole creation;;;the evil and

 wicked portion must be seperated from the creation...the wicked contrast totally removed to reflect God

as HE IS IN HIS NATURE....FOR THE WHOLE CREATION TO BE DELIVERED AND TO MANIFEST

THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD

   seperate/apart from sin/secound coming...to always be with Him..and LIKE HIM AND SEE HIS GLORY....

  that God may be all in all[no evil contrast in all creation]

[eaglesway]

Perfection in the scriptures usually refers to maturity, completion. Jesus asks us to be perfect as His father in heaven is perfect, this means that our heart attitude(loving our enemies and loving those who persecute us and forgiving those who harm us) becomes as His- not that we will become perfect in all our conduct all the time. A little study in the interlinears and Greek dictionaries and the context of usage shows this pretty easily IMO.

[Paul L]

author=eaglesway link=topic=10838.msg145273#msg145273 date=1353998527]

Perfection in the scriptures usually refers to maturity, completion.

Yep, this is exactly what it means, check Greek definition 5046 in Strong's Concordance.

- not that we will become perfect in all our conduct all the time. A little study in the interlinears and Greek dictionaries and the context of usage shows this pretty easily IMO.

You don't need an "IMO" here, it is the full context of the Greek definition.

[eaglesway]

Yes, but regardless of how correct I think I am, I prefer to treat this forum as a discussion blog. The truth speaks loudly enough without assertion, so I use the words IMO in respect for my opponents, so that no one ever feels that I am trying to "impose" my positions. You see Paul, this forum is not about debate. It is about DISCUSSION, and I insist only upon keeping our conversations as "gentle as is possible with us" for one MAIN REASON.

That seekers who wander these pages be not put off by strong personalities and doctrinal inflexibility and sarcastic communications- so that WHATEVER THEIR BACKGROUND they may find the glory of UR :o)