Author Topic: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?  (Read 6068 times)

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Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2008, 07:12:44 AM »
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So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.


IMO,

AD70 occurred because it was fulfillment in prophecy.  fulfillment in HIM.  The prior judgments were shadows of what was to come.  Judgments prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

but I do understand your point of view, and have contemplated it as well as many others point of views  often. 

I agree, 70AD occurred because it was a fulfillment of prophesy, a prophesy that warned and obstinate nation would be made desolate because of their disobedience. I brought this example and addressed it because someone out there is using it as the reason Jesus was warning of destruction, thinking Jesus only came for that time and place and was speaking of the destruction of the Temple alone. Jesus is the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGES not just an age.

My point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

That just suffering a person receives could have been avoided had they turned and dug up that seed they planted. That the light would shine and they see the need for repentance to avoid reaping a harvest of thorns and thistles which is near cursed and set to be burned. The light would shine so they could plant a seed of blessing and partake in the blessings. That is now, not later but for those who do not do it now, they experience punishment/correction which though is painful at the time leads to a righteousness, in this life or the after.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2008, 07:20:13 AM »
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My point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2008, 07:23:39 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.


Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2008, 07:29:00 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2008, 07:39:12 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).


Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2008, 07:59:03 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).


Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     



I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2008, 08:29:02 AM »
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My point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.


I disagree, they did not PURPOSELY do it. They were decieved, I was going to address this in my statement above and then deleted it, but it seems I was following the Spirit.

Matthew 13:12-15
"Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;  though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

They did not know, nor do they understand, they are blind leading the blind.

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2008, 08:31:55 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).


Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     



I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Paul wrote Galations while in the NEW order. Paul, the one who wrote Romans, told you that we are GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED, WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW. So get it out of your head that reaping and sowing is of the OLD order of things. You are not under the Law where justice is found in an eye for an eye you are under the New Law which says the one who takes an eye for an eye, is just as guilty as the one who took an eye. In Christ, it is God who judges, not man and it is His to avenge and repay.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Hebrews 10:28-29
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

So NO WONDER we are cautioned and warned and told to beware of those who would have us return to a system of eye for an eye and take into our own hands what we believe is justice. It is not a pleasant thing to experience the consequence of such action, you are not opposing some man, but God Himself.

This doesn't mean you are doomed to a sentence of perpetual torment, but what it does mean is there is penalty, corrective punishment awaiting those who live after the sinful nature, a penalty which can be avoided had you lived a repentant life and forgive one another all the time. The grace of God is our strength in our time of need, when we do not think we can do good any longer, His strength is sufficient for us. God is just, but He is also faithful and merciful.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 08:41:48 AM by SOtW »

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2008, 08:37:30 AM »
Quote
My point being, there is something so miserable that comes to someone who leads another astray, that Jesus told them it was better they commit suicide! This is a pretty strong warning and for anyone who says that this warning is from a fear based doctrine, they alienate their own Lord and make his words nothing. Jesus did not speak for nothing, and if these people think Scripture is made up and rewritten to fit a fear base doctrine and that Jesus never made such dire warnings, they are deceived, deluded and have nothing to do with the faith, their faith has no substance and any argument they make has no substance.

Although it is my opinion that Jesus used these strong words for people who were purposely leading his sheep astray.  The Pharisees were such people because it benefitted them to do so.  He calls them liars!  He calls them thieves!  They had an ulterior motive, as such people have to this very day.  Religion is a very useful tool in the hands of those who would use it for their own power and enrichment.  That is, people with evil motives.  That is, people working for satan.

But, of the ignorant he said, Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.


I disagree, they did not PURPOSELY do it. They were decieved, I was going to address this in my statement above and then deleted it, but it seems I was following the Spirit.

Matthew 13:12-15
"Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see;  though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

They did not know, nor do they understand, they are blind leading the blind.
Ultimately deceived, yes.  However,  they knew they were enriching themselves at the expense of the people, stealing from widows and orphans, showing no mercy, lording themselves over everyone else.  Do you really think they thought they were doing God's will when they ran their mock trial against Jesus?  They broke their own laws to convict him in their phoney midnight trial. 

Bottom line--they were evil.  And, those that do similar things today are evil.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2008, 08:41:26 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).


Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     



I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Paul wrote Galations while in the NEW order. Paul, the one who wrote Romans, told you that we are GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED, WE ALL REAP WHAT WE SOW. So get it out of your head that reaping and sowing is of the OLD order of things. You are not under the Law where justice is found in an eye for an eye you are under the New Law which says the one who takes an eye for an eye, is just as guilty as the one who took an eye.
More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2008, 08:42:53 AM »
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More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2008, 08:47:45 AM »
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More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)
well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...


Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2008, 08:52:41 AM »
This is going to sting.... Jesus spoke so that they wouldn't repent... They had to make their own choice... He WANTED God to deal with them if they did not.

Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Watch Jesus at work. Those who are decieved remain decieved and suffer because they have seen the Light and ran from it.

Revelation 22:11
Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2008, 08:57:23 AM »
Quote
More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)
well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...

You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility. There is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2008, 08:58:55 AM »
This is going to sting.... Jesus spoke so that they wouldn't repent... They had to make their own choice... He WANTED God to deal with them if they did not.

Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables:"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Watch Jesus at work. Those who are decieved remain decieved and suffer because they have seen the Light and ran from it.

Revelation 22:11
Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
Yes, I know.  I don't quite understand that yet--why God is doing things this way, making it so hard for them to see the light, or so easy for them to run from it.

The irony of it all is that God told Abraham he would make him the father of many nations--where the word 'nations' means gentiles.  Abraham was the original gentile--Abram, the 'high father.'

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2008, 09:02:37 AM »
Quote
More to the point, both can repent and find forgiveness.

Right. I added to what I said, you were too quick to quote me :)
well, that's what I mean.  We have been set free from an eye for an eye and an eye for and eye for an eye--which is all just so much death.

Now if someone would just tell the world to repent...

You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility. There is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance.
That's one extreme.  The other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2008, 09:14:53 AM »
It is not extreme at all, it is just not understood. The light is already in this world, they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Quote from: Molly
The other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

....THAT DOCTRINE CONDEMNED AND WARNED AGAINST!

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Jude 1:3-7
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Again, some in the message of UR don't realize the only lie was that this punishment was perpetual torment! The truth is there is punishment and it serves for a limited duration.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 09:17:39 AM by SOtW »

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2008, 10:51:59 AM »
Quote from: Molly
The other is go ahead and sin your head off as long as you confess and repent of the same sin repeatedly...

....THAT DOCTRINE CONDEMNED AND WARNED AGAINST!

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Jude 1:3-7
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jesus says to people he has healed, Go and sin no more.

That means it must be possible.  Isn't that a message we are also to take to heart?

Not that it's necessarily that easy to do.  The key is that God's grace is not a license for immorality.  And, yet, some organized religions seem to actually teach it that way, in practice if not in theory, a sort of buying your way out of a bad deed by giving this amount of money or saying this number of prayers of contrition.   This would be the equivalent of the first circumcision, I would think--those who never made it out of the wilderness because everything was imposed from the outside and their hearts had never changed.

This gives the leaders of those religions a tremendous amount of power over their congregation--because not only are they dictating the terms of God's forgiveness for a given transgression, not only are they acquiring what amounts to the most delicate secrets of their flock, but they almost seem to be standing in place of Christ to keep people away from an intimate relationship with him.

And, yet, the only way we will be truly healed is through direct relationship with Christ.

So, for me, this is the Pharisees--deja vu all over again.   The punishment goes on and on, and nothing ever changes.

When Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses, he was chuckling up his sleeve because he knew it had been designed that way and served the same purposes as his godless religion of a proletariat that would never rise above the mud, --keeping people asleep, shackled, and oppressed.

Or as Jesus said, you search the whole world for one convert, and when you find him, you make him more the child of hell than you are yourselves.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 11:02:17 AM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2008, 11:01:33 AM »
This is where the misunderstanding occurs. It isn't about works, or deeds. If a person truly is following after Christ, their works and deeds will follow. It is the cart before the horse and it that is what has been so wrongly taught. If you mess up, repent and strive for what is good and run the race towards the prize. If you are weak, His grace is sufficient. This is not about punishment and correction, this is about living and pursuing what is good because that is why we are created. The motivation is to do good, not to run from punishment.

The pharisee says if we do enough good works we will be safe from any punishment. That doesn't work because the motivation is wrong! To do good for self-preservation is sin! Yes, you were not pursuing good, you were pursuing selfishness! Thus heaping upon yourself the punishment you so wanted to avoid. We aren't talking literal fire and torture pits, but the needless suffering a person goes through in life when they are motivated by guilt and fear and self-delusion.

Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2008, 11:04:51 AM »
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It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.


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That doesn't work because the motivation is wrong!

The motivation is wrong because they don't know Jesus.  To know him is to love him and be extremely motivated out of love.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 11:13:10 AM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2008, 11:13:44 AM »
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It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2008, 11:22:00 AM »
Quote
It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.
I don't think that is a bad starting place, because it is where we are living when we start--first the natural--first the child.  If they keep pursuing God from this angle--they will find there is a lot in it for them, even as it changes shape and form until all they want is him.  The problem comes in when their knowledge of him continues to remain in the realm of the superficial satisfaction of the child--*which is right where religion wants to keep them*.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 11:26:39 AM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2008, 12:12:17 PM »
Quote
It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

It can't be that simple.  Hardly anyone gets it.

Of course hardly anyone gets it, because they keep thinking, "What's in it for me?" They look for their own satisfaction, their own fluffy feelings, and therefore never see it. If anyone has a faith that says, "What's in it for me!" they are living by the flesh and what is in it most definitely is what they don't want.
I don't think that is a bad starting place, because it is where we are living when we start--first the natural--first the child.  If they keep pursuing God from this angle--they will find there is a lot in it for them, even as it changes shape and form until all they want is him.  The problem comes in when their knowledge of him continues to remain in the realm of the superficial satisfaction of the child--*which is right where religion wants to keep them*.

Right, that is how it goes. We do grow up! We must mature! Jesus said the workman who looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom of God.

Luke 9:62
Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

etc etc.

It all comes down to the right mindset, and many even in UR have lost touch with what was important. I grow frustrated when I hear doctrines of 'no control' over our circumstance and that we are not accountable or responsible for our actions. Such doctrines are of the devil, lies that encourage no repentance, no obedience, no pursuant of good but of self-seeking, self-fulfilling, self-orientated non-sense that will lead them straight in to destruction.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 12:19:01 PM by SOtW »

Offline davidsulem

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2008, 02:49:59 PM »
Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

 :thumbsup:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2008, 04:05:01 PM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.


God works within that law.  He shapes and  conforms us to see where we should sow so that eventually we will reap immortality with Him.

Our hope through faith is that is true.



Works within what law?  We are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which defies what is known as the law of Karma and Physics (a.k.a the law of sin and death).


Reaping what we sow is a law that you and everyone else are subject to now and what Christ came to do was to save the world, he did not come to eliminate the law.  If you lead people astray all your life all the while saying you believe in Christ you will reap the concequenses.     



I know my Redeemer lives...


Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



Never said He doesn't live,  if Romans 8:2 makes you free from the law of Sin as it may imply, then you would not die an earthly death.   "the wages of sin is death"  you are not free from reaping and sowing.

What God does is work within that law, works within the freedom he has given us so that we will reap immortality and learn righteousness and the knowledge of truth.

You are free because Sin and death cannot hold you prisoner forever.   But you still reap what you sow.   If now, you are sowing good seed, you will reap the consequences of that good seed.  If you are a deceiver now, whether you claim to know christ or not, you will still reap the concequences of what you sow.  No getting around it.