Author Topic: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?  (Read 5916 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2008, 12:13:16 AM »
Quote
Feels a bit like Manuel studying an English Bible 

Que?
In The words Of Basil"let me explain Manuel.....This SLAP on Head :laughing7:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2008, 12:30:13 AM »

 
Quote
Aren't those verses just saying we do not know when that time 'starts'?

And tells us Nothing of the Duration?[/quote]

All Things are Fulfilled In HIM Bud, Tis His plan of Salvation... in That DAY being HIM






Quote
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 
So 'the city' is destroyed within an hour but the angels continue to kill for another 13 months.
Is the city really some city or something spiritual?

Im at a Loss with 13 Months Bud...maybe i missed it :dontknow:...

For mine ,a City can be  likened to an Individual( Gen 4;17  Ecc 7:19   )...as In Man, being Flesh( heart and Mind= soul= carnal mind),, likened to Babylon, likened to Old Jerusalem , Likened to the Old C, Locked outside The veil...In this case, the City Detroyed for mine, is The carnal Mind..which is enmity ..

Replaced BY a NEW CITY, being HIS Body( Heart and Mind) , New Jerusalem , the City of ANGELS being the Church,,,Tis spiritual for mine Bud... :icon_flower:


« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 12:44:46 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2008, 12:40:15 AM »
Quote
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 
So 'the city' is destroyed within an hour but the angels continue to kill for another 13 months.
Is the city really some city or something spiritual?

Im at a Loss with 13 Months Bud...maybe i missed it :dontknow:...

1 year + 1 month + 1 day
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2008, 12:49:38 AM »
Quote

...

1 year + 1 month + 1 day

Drr.....Maybe it could be ONE appointed Time covering MAN.....Four has also a meaning in scripture,Creation, WORLD, Earth ,..., I dont see it as 13 months , nor seperate times...

« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 12:55:57 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Zeek

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2008, 04:07:31 AM »
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

You seem to wish to debate me again... well... you shall have an answer to your wish...  :shakepoint:

Warnings, and consequences of ignoring warnings is not 'FEAR' doctrine, they are INDEED out of LOVE because LOVE ALWAYS PROTECTS! Warnings do not come out of "FEAR", they come out of wisdom and protection concerning the things that do harm us, or the actions that will end with undesirable consequence.

If HELL is FEARFUL (which proposition is the very MEAT or essence of its "WARNING"), and it is proposed by LOVE which states its PERFECT state as WITHOUT FEAR (1 John 4:18), ...it is thereby found to be a contradiction in terms no matter how you might endeavor to garnish it with PROTECTIVE "WARNINGS"...

This is no more than a distractive and (supposedly deserved) PUNITIVE teaching which ALSO goes against the COINCIDING instructions to FORGIVE enemies...  BLESS them that curse you... and continues to remain in the realm which was prior to those teachings...  It is preaching that GOD, by His decisions have either DRAWN or NOT DRAWN men to Himself, and then BLAMING them for not being DRAWN, and PUNISHING them accordingly...  What NONSENSE!  :thumbdown:

It is CONTRARY that GOD should BLAME men, whom He DID not choose to HEAR, ...for NOT HEARING...   :mshock: 

GOD is doing this very process (during which MEN are helpless to name themselves as HEARERS or NOT HEARERS) ...to show OPPOSITIONS to GRACE and LOVE... You blindly see what your ego desires instead of what SPIRITUAL teaching is actually within the WORDS of GOD...

To teach that future or "afterlife" PUNISHMENT is the destiny for ANYONE, beyond this life, is CONTRARY to the SPIRITUAL understandings of what THIS LIFE is all about presenting!  ...believe and PROMOTE what you will... you will either find SHAME or REWARD for it...  :dontknow:  Seeya at the end...  :Chinscratch:

I prefer to TEACH of the complete VICTORY of LOVE which is WITHOUT regard to CLAY, one lump or another...  :happygrin:

You prefer to WARN of LOVE's impending ANGER... which is DUE those not given to HEAR... by Him that "GAVE OUT" the "ears"...  :rolleye:

If you believe that warnings are out of fear, then that thought is out YOUR insecurity and YOUR denial that there are actually dangers in our life that we have been warned against. If this is you, it is you who is UNABLE in distinguish between reality and your belief system, fact versus imagination, truth versus denial.

 :Yeahright:  Backatcha sotw...  CHRIST was not warning of PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT to come, and I believe YOU are the one, OFTEN in DENIAL...

We all reap what we sow, there is a warning of the consequence and if it is not heeded, you WILL experience it in full force not experiencing any salvation from it.


PHYSICAL for physical, SPIRITUAL for SPIRITUAL...  :dontknow:

CHRIST is a SPIRITUAL clothing that benevolently masks deeds from SHAME, not a fire retardant suit.

Though you endure such consequence but such consequence is not infinite in duration and will end and that end is the salvation for one who endures such consequence, a salvation assured by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again... you try to TIE God to TIME... by giving His administration "DURATIONS" of it to further bind men beyond the grave... missing the points made in the SPIRIT...

Then there are people who adhere to the warning and are saved such consequence because they never experience it, their salvation was found in their obedience. Like you, they will be with the Lord in the end, though unlike you instead of experiencing that consequence you must endure, they reigned with Him for a time working with the Lord to deliver you from your ignorance and disobedience.

JESUS did NOT say:   Go WARN everyone about HELL... and BTW, tell them I died for the SINS that THEY will have to PAY FOR if they don't hear your WARNING... :rolleye:

NOTE TO EVERYONE:

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Warning of what? The warning that those who continue to sin, will be broken off just from the blessings of God.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:

This is just an ADDITION which is made and assumed (to fit this ones belief), to the writing of PAUL that IS NOT STATED THERE... these words are according to sotw...

GOD causes the RAIN to fall on the JUST ...AND... the UNJUST... and the "JUST" are just, the "UNJUST" which have been GIVEN the ears to HEAR what JUSTICE actually IS... GRACE is the JUSTICE of GOD... (Rom 5:18-20) ...GRACE gives EARS to Hear its JUSTICE...

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived....

Again missing the point... the KINGDOM of GOD is NOW... the "wicked" do not partake of it HERE and NOW...

Ephesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


 :director:  ditto to what I just mentioned above to the prior listed verse...

If anyone teaches you to ignore warnings, do not listen! Warnings are not to cause fear they are statements of the fact there is danger to those who don't listen to them. You must run from those who teach you to ignore warnings, because it is their conscience has been seared and they have lost their sense unable to distinguish between good and evil. The blind leading the blind and they will not only fall but bring many down with them.

CHRIST instructed to make DISCIPLES of men to His Apostles... He gave no instructions to WARN of "HELL", in ANY DURATION or ANY FORM...

Hell is not a perpetual torture pit, nor is it inflicted by God. It is self-induced and birthed through the man who continues to live in disobedience.


 :Yeahright:  This is but a statement which is DEVOID of FAITH, ...and only serves to display MAN, DICTATING to GOD -- that MAN has "birthed" his own torment, apart FROM and OVER His POWER to give men to avoid it... :mnah:

"IT" does not exist... "IT" is the perpetuation of the evil mindset of MAN which fails to KNOW what LOVE is, nor HOW it works... and what LOVE's PURPOSE is in this realm...

LOVE appears within the HEARTS that IT chooses to APPEAR... and is the EXAMPLE which shall be presented in RESURRECTION to all those that were NOT CHOSEN... to their BOWING of KNEE, and CONFESSING of TONGUE... NOT to BLAST them in some "afterlife furnace"...

It is the FIRE of TRUTH which exposes the deeds of MEN to ITSELF... and, just as happened with YOU when you realized your SINFULNESS sotw... they TEARFULLY drop to the knee, and confess the TRUTH of their LORD to the GLORY of HIS LOVE!



Even if there is no 'hell', there most certainly is the knowledge and understanding that you missed out and did not inherit the kingdom of God due to your disobedience.


 :laugh:  The swami has spoken...  You think to have knowledge which OFTEN  overestimates itself...

This part, can be called hell, is most definitely not a desired outcome. Though your salvation is to experience the Kingdom of God, you experience it as one with no inheritance in the outer courts of the Kingdom of heaven never able to enter into the inner courts and the Holy of Holies where those who have kept themselves clean may enter.

Where is your beloved FIRE?

You know NOTHING of my experience... and SHALL NOT... I have been down a road you have YET to travel... Teach HELL if you wish... you will find out in the end, your SHAME for doing so...

It is still an amazement to me how the revelation of Universal Redemption has brought an ignorance to the things which are without question have have severe warnings to stay away from. It is a befuddlement how the message of Universal Salvation has brought the stupid into people to forget everything that they were taught previously throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For those ignorant and stupid people, I pray that their eyes may be opened to the evil that they have exposed themselves to and have snared other to follow and repent and renew their clean their minds and accept a new heart.

Craig

Let me IGNORE the CONDESCENDING WORDS above, which fall into the meaninglessness from which they emerged, and address the WARNING portion...

The GOSPEL is NOT a WARNING... ADAM & EVE were NOT WARNED, neither were any WARNED of HELL in the Old TESTAMENT...

JESUS did not come to bring NEW TEACHING, He came to REVEAL and FULFILL what the OLD TESTAMENT had noted SPIRITUALLY within its given PHYSICAL premises...

Even the "warnings" done of FLOOD of NOAH was not about ALL but 8 "HEARING" and LIVING... it was about that those who DO NOT HEAR (NOT given EARS to HEAR), will continue in IGNORANCE and DIE in the SIN in which they are IMMERSED... and that ONLY the "ARK" of GOD's LOVE (CHRIST) can SAVE ANY MAN, from the FLOOD of SIN which proposes to take their LIVES FROM THEM...

Or the SMEARING of the BLOOD of the Lamb over the doorstep of their HEARTS, shall cause DEATH to pass by and be INEFFECTIVE in its endeavor!

You are more than welcome to promote HELL Craig... ga-head!  But you (and all your ET buddies) shall find and FACE the sorrowful SHAME for doing so...

It is NOT, and NEVER WAS, nor ever WILL BE, a part of LOVE... no matter how YOU might try to deduce it...  :teaching:  ...and then, subsequently PROMOTE it...  :sigh:

It is NOT in LINE with SIN "taken away"... or "not IMPUTED"... believe what you will...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
 
Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2008, 04:10:38 AM »
That is right Paul. A gospel of love that preaches no repentance, is not a gospel of love. Repentance means to change, and if there is no change, not prize to strive for, then it is not the Gospel but complacency and those who teach this, are salt that has lost it's saltiness.

No one is arguing this... The GOSPEL teaches REPENTENCE because GOD is in the process of CHANGING the individual... the POT doesnt make itself... the POTTER does the "making"...

ALL are concluded BY GOD, in UNBELIEF... and NO ONE knows ALL the TRUTH... so any portion of the TRUTH, which we are not aligned with, is found based in UNBELIEF... 

Which is WHY John taught his listeners to not SAY they were without sin, for that is LIE (1 John 1:8)... and IS BASIS for REPENTENCE to be an ON-GOING thing... PAUL agreed with JOHN, read Romans 7...

REPENTENCE is NOT something "YOU or I decide to preach",  and thereby WE are "doing the deed"... :mnah:

GOD, shall use us to preach it... otherwise the "REPENTENCE" taught is NOT of Him... but of ourselves... and if it is of ourselves, then it is taught in VAIN...

REPENTENCE comes from the LEADING of GOD:

Rom 2:4   ...or despiseth thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, NOT KNOWING that the GOODNESS OF GOD, ...LEADETH thee TO REPENTENCE?

Without the LEADING of GOD... there is NO REPENTANCE... It is neither done nor TAUGHT...  GOD must be present in BOTH, the TEACHER and the STUDENT for it to be REALIZED...  It is NOT "manufactured" of the will of MEN to accomplish... (either in teaching or learning)

There is no "salt" unless the Creator of the "salt" instills it within the recipient...

The GOSPEL that is born of those who wish to take CREDIT for their teaching of "repentance" is that which CHRIST names as INIQUITY and IS found DONE by group here identified:

Matt 7: 22-23 

22 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven...

23  Many will SAY to me IN that DAY [Day of YHVH - which is NOW] "have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name, [have not WE] cast out devils? and in Thy Name [have not WE] DONE many wonderful works?  ...

23  And then [in that DAY - which is NOW] will I profess to THEM[to them which maintained they are  CREDITED for this] I never knew you, depart from Me, ..ye that WORK INIQUITY...


I will have no part of this group... GOD either uses my words, or He does not... I desire no credit for those which might be REPENTENT one way or the other...

I do not demand them to REPENT... I pray for them to REPENT... Giving the LORD the floor to do HIS WILL... either He shall give them EARS to HEAR, and they REPENT... or HE does NOT give them EARS... and they REPENT NOT!

In either case... It is HIS DECISION... and it is HIS WORK... As for me, ...I remain an INSTRUMENT at most... and am thankful and BLESSED, for that humility... just an arm or leg, or mouthpiece, yielded to HIM for His use and desire...

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2008, 04:17:18 AM »
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
 
Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

I will get back 2ya tomorrow on this post Zeek... have to go to work... just wanted you to know that I was not ignoring this post!  :wink3:

The letter of JUDE you quote says many more things than you herein might percieve...  :OhNo:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2008, 04:38:55 AM »
WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.

martincisneros

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2008, 07:23:55 AM »
WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.
Yeah, I'd leave it alone right there 'cause it's just another trip into the free will thread that got closed the other day.  That's what it bottomlines in.  You're both in agreement on Repentance.  But at this point the discussion teeters on the difference between Charles Finney's "The reason God said to repent was because you could repent" and his critics that would say that only in the moment of God's actually telling a total reprobate to repent was the actual ability granted to repent.  This will jump off the deep end on "circular" on both sides of this if either of you don't realize you've been down this road before with each other. 

A lot of Charismatic preachers [that aren't even UR] have gotten into the thing about not preaching repentance except when they feel lead because they've seen all of the abuses with condemnation and sin consciousness and particularly to a generally Western audience, many of them have it still ringing in their ears from some point in their lives.  And what they're needing to hear is what to repent unto rather than what to repent from.  Not totally sure that I agree with that approach, but my own calling is a little different than that of others and I realize that certain areas of doctrine like that wind up wandering into the nature of specific callings in the Body and get sticky on trying to dogmatize a standard approach to.

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2008, 11:21:54 PM »
willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

I will be just lightly touching on this SHORT but DEEP book you have quoted below... and [hopefully] make my viewpoint of FEAR [as NOT a PART of the GOSPEL] a valid one in that process...

As I noted with the FLOOD of NOAH... most focus in on the the 8 SAVED instead of the BALANCE of mankind which was NOT SAVED... and there is JUST as much POINT being made in that account [story] if not MORE, concerning the BALANCE which were LOST to DEATH, as the ones [temporarily] SAVED in LIFE...

Those SAVED in the FLOOD did not die... then!  But they met death elsewhere... the FLOOD account was a picture of SPIRITUAL premises, not just a PHYSICAL account of a PHYSICAL tragedy...

So within this writing, Jude makes like premises known as well... and to be totally honest, I do not PRETEND to KNOW them ALL... I have many times admitted to being a "backyard mechanic" type concerning the gaining and communicating of my beliefs (more like Peter, ...not Paul!) ...so please forgive this somewhat GENERAL and, clumsy answer!   :blush: 

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

So lets begin here Zeek... The suggestions here note that NATURAL MAN, is essentially a "BRUTE BEAST", which names him CARNAL in his "understanding" [know in verse 10]... and IN that CARNALITY is the CORRUPTIVE essence of that state...  :dontknow:

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Here, Jude is suggesting that that CARNAL state is destined for DARKNESS that is NOT intended to be a part of LIGHT... rather it is destined to be CAST AWAY by the LIGHT, for it has no PURPOSE in ETERNITY as a PART or PORTION of it...

CARNALITY is existent and ACTIVE, for THIS LIFETIME in TIME, not for ETERNITY...  this LIFETIME is a FIRE... in which we are IMMERSED, as JESUS "golden testimony" is noted as having been tried IN FIRE (Rev 3:18)... His "trials" took place HERE, in the flesh...  :dontknow:
 
Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

More about the issue that, the practice of UNGODLINESS (which is what CARNALITY is)... has no place in that which pemeates FOREVER...  Carnality practiced, has a purpose... that purpose is ENACTED NOW... and when it is fulfilled in ALL, shall be jettisoned as a PRACTICE, but FOREVER remain and serve to GLORIFY GOD as the opposing PRINCIPLE to HIS GLORY... MAGNIFYING that GLORY!

As many know, I recently had cancer surgery... that pain and suffering and life threatening issue, only serves to MAGNIFY the WORK of SICKNESS and SORROW that GOD has delivered me from!  I therefore PRAISE Him for that experience, because I am found in the blessing of HEALTH which He has restored in me...

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


At long last we arrive at the "NUTS & BOLTS" (backyard mechanic jargon!  :laughing7:) ...of this answer...  :laughhand:

You have ZEROED IN on the word FEAR in quoting these verses... and below noted the DEFINITION of the Greek word PHOBOS, to make a point that FEAR is contained in the message of the GOSPEL... which I have obviously OBJECTED to - eh?  :dontknow:

I have maintained that FEAR [PHOBOS] is NOT a part or portion of the GOSPEL, and here (in Jude), it appears to be a part, which is WHY you propose it to be so...

If the true understanding is that WE as GOD's messengers are to be FEARFUL [phobos] as we, under His direction and INFLUENCE, are "saving" these out of the "FIRE", and are doing this IN FEAR [phobos]...

Then I propose that LOVE which is GOD, ...is an INCOMPLETE or IMPERFECT element in that message, for the SCRIPTURE states that FEAR [phobos, noted 3, actually "4" times] is NOT a PART of LOVE...

If it is NOT a PART of LOVE, how can it be an ELEMENT of the MESSAGE of LOVE Zeek?

I believe that on the surface you see FEAR [phobos] as an element NECESSARY to the message, whereas... it is obvious to me that the MESSAGE which is proposed by the GREATEST part of Christianity, uses FEAR in that message as a prompting to others. ...to embrace the message!  [HELL & torment]

I further believe that this SURFACE understanding of FEAR as an integral PART, is that which CORRUPTS the message being delivered... because the Apostle John says THIS:


1 John 4:18  there is NO FEAR [phobos] ...IN... LOVE, but PERFECT [complete] LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR [phobos] because ...FEAR [phobos]... hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH [phobeo - from phobos], is NOT MADE PERFECT [complete], ...in LOVE --  [GOD is LOVE]...


So if FEAR is an element present in the messenger... then that messenger is NOT found complete in LOVE, which is GOD... (1 John 4:8)  :dontknow:

If one is delivering a message which CONTAINS FEAR... (which HELL & torment DEFINITELY DOES), then the message itself is NOT PERFECT, for LOVE casts OUT FEAR... and if FEAR is present in the message, then the message is corrupted BY IT, for it is not found CAST OUT.

If FEAR is casted OUT of the "messenger", then it is no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...and if no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...how can it be PART of His message?  :omg:

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Well... I believe I have made my point about the appearance and [IMO] misunderstanding of the this word [phobos] in Scripture... as it is applied to the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE [GOD] (1 Thes 2:9) and PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)

What "PEACE" is found in FEAR Zeek?

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have said, brother Zeek...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 11:41:29 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2008, 11:29:14 PM »
WillieH....My point is already made, your rebuttal has no substance and I find no reason to discuss it further.

That is your opinion, you are more than welcome to it... ET believers say the same thing about UR...  :dontknow:

This is fine with me... we have both made our points... let them be considered by the readers as either valid or invalid...  :dontknow:

In any event, GOD's WORK is HIS... not mine, not yours... let Him use that which He has ordained as INSPIRED and TRUE... which potentially, could be neither of us...  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :violin:

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2008, 11:57:24 PM »
You didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2008, 12:01:58 AM »
You didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

 :Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

You didn't "see" any...   :cool:  ...doesn't surprise me...   :pitiful:

Try taking your shades off!    :winkgrin:

peacE...
willieH  :violin:
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 12:05:27 AM by willieH »

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2008, 12:05:15 AM »
You didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

 :Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :violin:

No not says me, Jesus had some hard words for those who caused little ones to fall, he told them it was better they commit suicide. You speak with authority, but have little authority behind those words. That isn't fear brother, that is a warning of the reality and you are denial.

Offline willieH

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2008, 12:12:40 AM »
You didn't show any points to be considered. So it is fine with me as well.

 :Yeahright:  Says you...   :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :violin:

No not says me, Jesus had some hard words for those who caused little ones to fall, he told them it was better they commit suicide. You speak with authority, but have little authority behind those words. That isn't fear brother, that is a warning of the reality and you are denial.

We'll see... I have no FEAR in my heart, nor in the MESSAGE I present to others of GOD and HIS GOSPEL...  :upset:  To note FEAR in the message of PEACE is mixing oil & water...  bitter & sweet... contrary, ineffective and CONFUSED... 

I have LOVE in my heart (even for you!)...  :HeartThrob: ...and THAT, dear brother... IS my MESSAGE!  :cloud9:

You are not the determining factor of "AUTHORITY"... God is... and I ALWAYS present HIS WORDS to verify what I propose in my beliefs... :yes:

That you do not choose to observe them, is your prerogative... which is irrelevant to me...  :dontknow:

Concerning "denial"... that is pretty much all you do... :pitiful: :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :violin:
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 12:57:13 AM by willieH »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2008, 01:02:24 AM »
Craig and Willie. :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Lets not see this thread go the ways of Others before it... :HeartThrob:

either CONTINUE your scriptural discourse or guys , please  stay stum. :icon_flower:

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:07:23 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2008, 01:41:07 AM »
For mine guys, Theres NO fear in the Gospel....

but like most terms within scripture theres seems to be a Negative and Postive.

Zeek,
Quote
Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Cant help but come to think of those of LAW yet again Bro.

Those who eat Unworthy have No FEAR....TIS for Mine this fear they Have NOT.

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding

Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.

Psa 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:


Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
 Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.


Pro 14:26 In the fear of the LORD [is] strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.


 Pro 14:27 The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

and there are many more bro,,,theres always a negative and a Postive..and as Craig often quotes..we read with the spirit of LOVE, not DEATH


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Got to watch that wording bro..and Dont always rely on those translators.... :icon_flower:


The Fear ,they in JUDE rescued from the FIRE, for Mine is this...they rescued OUT of FEAR,.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:34:29 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Zeek

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2008, 01:56:45 AM »
willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

I will be just lightly touching on this SHORT but DEEP book you have quoted below... and [hopefully] make my viewpoint of FEAR [as NOT a PART of the GOSPEL] a valid one in that process...

As I noted with the FLOOD of NOAH... most focus in on the the 8 SAVED instead of the BALANCE of mankind which was NOT SAVED... and there is JUST as much POINT being made in that account [story] if not MORE, concerning the BALANCE which were LOST to DEATH, as the ones [temporarily] SAVED in LIFE...

Those SAVED in the FLOOD did not die... then!  But they met death elsewhere... the FLOOD account was a picture of SPIRITUAL premises, not just a PHYSICAL account of a PHYSICAL tragedy...

So within this writing, Jude makes like premises known as well... and to be totally honest, I do not PRETEND to KNOW them ALL... I have many times admitted to being a "backyard mechanic" type concerning the gaining and communicating of my beliefs (more like Peter, ...not Paul!) ...so please forgive this somewhat GENERAL and, clumsy answer!   :blush: 

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

So lets begin here Zeek... The suggestions here note that NATURAL MAN, is essentially a "BRUTE BEAST", which names him CARNAL in his "understanding" [know in verse 10]... and IN that CARNALITY is the CORRUPTIVE essence of that state...  :dontknow:

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Here, Jude is suggesting that that CARNAL state is destined for DARKNESS that is NOT intended to be a part of LIGHT... rather it is destined to be CAST AWAY by the LIGHT, for it has no PURPOSE in ETERNITY as a PART or PORTION of it...

CARNALITY is existent and ACTIVE, for THIS LIFETIME in TIME, not for ETERNITY...  this LIFETIME is a FIRE... in which we are IMMERSED, as JESUS "golden testimony" is noted as having been tried IN FIRE (Rev 3:18)... His "trials" took place HERE, in the flesh...  :dontknow:
 
Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

More about the issue that, the practice of UNGODLINESS (which is what CARNALITY is)... has no place in that which pemeates FOREVER...  Carnality practiced, has a purpose... that purpose is ENACTED NOW... and when it is fulfilled in ALL, shall be jettisoned as a PRACTICE, but FOREVER remain and serve to GLORIFY GOD as the opposing PRINCIPLE to HIS GLORY... MAGNIFYING that GLORY!

As many know, I recently had cancer surgery... that pain and suffering and life threatening issue, only serves to MAGNIFY the WORK of SICKNESS and SORROW that GOD has delivered me from!  I therefore PRAISE Him for that experience, because I am found in the blessing of HEALTH which He has restored in me...

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


At long last we arrive at the "NUTS & BOLTS" (backyard mechanic jargon!  :laughing7:) ...of this answer...  :laughhand:

You have ZEROED IN on the word FEAR in quoting these verses... and below noted the DEFINITION of the Greek word PHOBOS, to make a point that FEAR is contained in the message of the GOSPEL... which I have obviously OBJECTED to - eh?  :dontknow:

I have maintained that FEAR [PHOBOS] is NOT a part or portion of the GOSPEL, and here (in Jude), it appears to be a part, which is WHY you propose it to be so...

If the true understanding is that WE as GOD's messengers are to be FEARFUL [phobos] as we, under His direction and INFLUENCE, are "saving" these out of the "FIRE", and are doing this IN FEAR [phobos]...

Then I propose that LOVE which is GOD, ...is an INCOMPLETE or IMPERFECT element in that message, for the SCRIPTURE states that FEAR [phobos, noted 3, actually "4" times] is NOT a PART of LOVE...

If it is NOT a PART of LOVE, how can it be an ELEMENT of the MESSAGE of LOVE Zeek?

I believe that on the surface you see FEAR [phobos] as an element NECESSARY to the message, whereas... it is obvious to me that the MESSAGE which is proposed by the GREATEST part of Christianity, uses FEAR in that message as a prompting to others. ...to embrace the message!  [HELL & torment]

I further believe that this SURFACE understanding of FEAR as an integral PART, is that which CORRUPTS the message being delivered... because the Apostle John says THIS:


1 John 4:18  there is NO FEAR [phobos] ...IN... LOVE, but PERFECT [complete] LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR [phobos] because ...FEAR [phobos]... hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH [phobeo - from phobos], is NOT MADE PERFECT [complete], ...in LOVE --  [GOD is LOVE]...


So if FEAR is an element present in the messenger... then that messenger is NOT found complete in LOVE, which is GOD... (1 John 4:8)  :dontknow:

If one is delivering a message which CONTAINS FEAR... (which HELL & torment DEFINITELY DOES), then the message itself is NOT PERFECT, for LOVE casts OUT FEAR... and if FEAR is present in the message, then the message is corrupted BY IT, for it is not found CAST OUT.

If FEAR is casted OUT of the "messenger", then it is no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...and if no longer a PART of the "messenger",  ...how can it be PART of His message?  :omg:

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



fear

G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Well... I believe I have made my point about the appearance and [IMO] misunderstanding of the this word [phobos] in Scripture... as it is applied to the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE [GOD] (1 Thes 2:9) and PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)

What "PEACE" is found in FEAR Zeek?

You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have said, brother Zeek...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

Thanks Willie for your reply,

I tend to see scripture twofold; one as written to a specific group of peoples (Israel and grafted in gentiles) with regards to a specific literal judgment coming; that no one living at that time would want to go through; which as I've stated in other threads; happened in AD70 imo.  The scriptures are full of a "soon return" of Jesus in judgment upon apostate Israel.  At the time of the first century, the "Ishmaels were being cast out", and the "Isaacs" being saved from the soon coming judgment. To not warn, and to not instill fear to those who once had tasted the goodness of HIM via the Holy Spirit, but had fallen away; would be a lack of love.  Paul, James, Peter, and John were not fooling around.  Staying faithful to the end was of absolute importance, to not throw away their inheritance.  

I know u are well versed on scripture so won't list all of them re: coming judgment, and the intense desire of those given eyes to see to keep those from falling away and facing destruction:


Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

saved from what?  soon coming judgment.  This was a literal judgment coming.  Beware.  

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rom 10:11  For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

sounds to me like something one should fear

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



Now, I also see the scripture more "internally" or "spiritually" in the sense not a soon coming "literal" destruction, but an "internal" destruction of the carnal mind.  In this view; the "dying of the carnal mind" through destruction is a good thing; and is one way to look at scripture.  And I think more of the view you take, although; I think u mix "literal" with "spiritual" since you also take "physical death (a literal event) as part of the equation.  


So, my two cents.  I see both sides.  


one other thought:

So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc. 






« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:27:50 AM by Zeek »

Zeek

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2008, 01:59:12 AM »
Thanks T, for the always applicable view to the NOW. 

Love in Him

Z

Offline Taffy

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2008, 03:06:07 AM »
Thanks T, for the always applicable view to the NOW. 

Love in Him

Z

Zeek...

good to see ya still around some Budd and Posting :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline studier

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2008, 03:33:50 AM »
Quote
So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every individual will go through the consequences of their actions, we all reap what we sow so becareful what you sow. This spiritual law is present always.

Galatians 6:6-8
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

It is not talking about 70AD, it is talking about every age, including Today. Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.

Everyone is anyone, reaps what he sows. Some will not reap an aionios life because they lived by their sinful nature and were destroyed and are being destroyed. It matters not that destruction must come to cleanse them of their sinful nature,they did not need to live by their sinful nature be destroyed, they could have lived by the Spirit to reap eternal life.

That understanding is what Satan does not want us to know, he wants us all to be destroyed because it is to his satisfaction that none of us should live by the spirit and reap eternal life so made up a lie that destruction is good. Why are we warned and to be weary of the destruction that is coming by Jesus and his disciples, if that is what we are to embrace. Those who continue to teach this lie, like Jesus said, should tie a millstone to their necks and throw themselves into the sea because they are leading people astray.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.




« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 03:38:37 AM by SOtW »

Zeek

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2008, 03:58:05 AM »
Quote
So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.

Every nation reaped what it sowed, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Israel, Rome, etc. The principle of sowing and reaping did not end in 70AD, 70AD occurred because of this spiritual principal.


IMO,

AD70 occurred because it was fulfillment in prophecy.  fulfillment in HIM.  The prior judgments were shadows of what was to come.  Judgments prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

but I do understand your point of view, and have contemplated it as well as many others point of views  often. 



 


Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2008, 05:29:39 AM »
Reaping and sowing in God's economy is not necessarily a direct cause and effect relationship, nor is it necessarily linear.  So we see the laws of Karma and Physics as they are known in other religions do not necessarily apply.



God's judgment on the wicked--they sow wheat but reap thorns--


12 Over all the barren heights in the desert
       destroyers will swarm,
       for the sword of the LORD will devour
       from one end of the land to the other;
       no one will be safe.
 13 They will sow wheat but reap thorns;
       they will wear themselves out but gain nothing.
       So bear the shame of your harvest
       because of the LORD's fierce anger."

--Jer 12



The wicked reap far worse than the wicked thing they sowed--



5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria!
       My anger burns against them.
       How long will they be incapable of purity?

6 They are from Israel!
       This calf—a craftsman has made it;
       it is not God.
       It will be broken in pieces,
       that calf of Samaria.

 7 "They sow the wind
       and reap the whirlwind.
       The stalk has no head;
       it will produce no flour.
       Were it to yield grain,
       foreigners would swallow it up.

 8 Israel is swallowed up;
       now she is among the nations
       like a worthless thing.

--Hosea 8



The wicked will sow but not reap anything at all--leaving their house desolate--



15Thou shalt sow, but thou shalt not reap; thou shalt tread the olives, but thou shalt not anoint thee with oil; and sweet wine, but shalt not drink wine.

 16For the statutes of Omri are kept, and all the works of the house of Ahab, and ye walk in their counsels; that I should make thee a desolation, and the inhabitants thereof an hissing: therefore ye shall bear the reproach of my people.

--Micah 6



The brokenhearted will reap joy by sowing tears--



4Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as the streams in the south.

 5They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.

 6He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

--Psa 126



We are to sow righteousness to reap mercy--



12Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

 13Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.

--Hosea 10



Through Christ we reap what another sowed--so that reaper and sower can rejoice together--



35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

 36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

 37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

--John 4

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 05:34:35 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2008, 05:39:40 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

Offline Molly

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Re: Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2008, 05:42:03 AM »
I have seen Gods correction in my own life and it was a period of time, not limited to a 24 hour period.  I would have to say that the length of this is a period of time to us.


Molly, I think Reaping and Sowing  is a design of God's for the realm of all existance.
Doesn't matter what a person believes or what religion they practice or what they call things.  Every human experiences reaping and sowing.

I believe that is a Law of God that includes both our physical and spiritual existance.

well, yes, but according to a law that is not what one usually thinks it to be.  Or there would be no miracles, no forgiveness of sins, no mercy, no grace. Jesus, the mind of Christ, transcends Karma and the physical world.

And, that is proof of the love of God.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 05:44:59 AM by Molly »