willieH: Hi Zeek...
I will be just lightly touching on this SHORT but DEEP book you have quoted below... and [hopefully] make my viewpoint of FEAR [as NOT a PART of the GOSPEL] a valid one in that process...
As I noted with the FLOOD of NOAH... most focus in on the the 8 SAVED instead of the BALANCE of mankind which was NOT SAVED... and there is JUST as much POINT being made in that account [story] if not MORE, concerning the BALANCE which were LOST to DEATH, as the ones [temporarily] SAVED in LIFE...
Those SAVED in the FLOOD did not die... then! But they met death elsewhere... the FLOOD account was a picture of SPIRITUAL premises, not just a PHYSICAL account of a PHYSICAL tragedy...
So within this writing, Jude makes like premises known as well... and to be totally honest, I do not PRETEND to KNOW them ALL... I have many times admitted to being a "backyard mechanic" type concerning the gaining and communicating of my beliefs (more like Peter, ...not Paul!) ...so please forgive this somewhat GENERAL and, clumsy answer!
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
So lets begin here Zeek... The suggestions here note that NATURAL MAN, is essentially a "BRUTE BEAST", which names him CARNAL in his "understanding" [know in verse 10]... and IN that CARNALITY is the CORRUPTIVE essence of that state...
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Here, Jude is suggesting that that CARNAL state is destined for DARKNESS that is NOT intended to be a part of LIGHT... rather it is destined to be CAST AWAY by the LIGHT, for it has no PURPOSE in ETERNITY as a PART or PORTION of it...
CARNALITY is existent and ACTIVE, for THIS LIFETIME in TIME, not for ETERNITY... this LIFETIME is a FIRE... in which we are IMMERSED, as JESUS "golden testimony" is noted as having been tried IN FIRE (Rev 3:18)... His "trials" took place HERE, in the flesh...
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
More about the issue that, the practice of UNGODLINESS (which is what CARNALITY is)... has no place in that which pemeates FOREVER... Carnality practiced, has a purpose... that purpose is ENACTED NOW... and when it is fulfilled in ALL, shall be jettisoned as a PRACTICE, but FOREVER remain and serve to GLORIFY GOD as the opposing PRINCIPLE to HIS GLORY... MAGNIFYING that GLORY!
As many know, I recently had cancer surgery... that pain and suffering and life threatening issue, only serves to MAGNIFY the WORK of SICKNESS and SORROW that GOD has delivered me from! I therefore PRAISE Him for that experience, because I am found in the blessing of HEALTH which He has restored in me...
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
At long last we arrive at the "NUTS & BOLTS" (backyard mechanic jargon! ) ...of this answer...
You have ZEROED IN on the word FEAR in quoting these verses... and below noted the DEFINITION of the Greek word PHOBOS, to make a point that FEAR is contained in the message of the GOSPEL... which I have obviously OBJECTED to - eh?
I have maintained that FEAR [PHOBOS] is NOT a part or portion of the GOSPEL, and here (in Jude), it appears to be a part, which is WHY you propose it to be so...
If the true understanding is that WE as GOD's messengers are to be FEARFUL [phobos] as we, under His direction and INFLUENCE, are "saving" these out of the "FIRE", and are doing this IN FEAR [phobos]...
Then I propose that LOVE which is GOD, ...is an INCOMPLETE or IMPERFECT element in that message, for the SCRIPTURE states that FEAR [phobos, noted 3, actually "4" times] is NOT a PART of LOVE...
If it is NOT a PART of LOVE, how can it be an ELEMENT of the MESSAGE of LOVE Zeek?
I believe that on the surface you see FEAR [phobos] as an element NECESSARY to the message, whereas... it is obvious to me that the MESSAGE which is proposed by the GREATEST part of Christianity, uses FEAR in that message as a prompting to others. ...to embrace the message! [HELL & torment]
I further believe that this SURFACE understanding of FEAR as an integral PART, is that which CORRUPTS the message being delivered... because the Apostle John says THIS:
1 John 4:18 there is NO FEAR [phobos] ...IN... LOVE, but PERFECT [complete] LOVE, ...CASTETH OUT, ...FEAR [phobos] because ...FEAR [phobos]... hath TORMENT. He that FEARETH [phobeo - from phobos], is NOT MADE PERFECT [complete], ...in LOVE -- [GOD is LOVE]...
So if FEAR is an element present in the messenger... then that messenger is NOT found complete in LOVE, which is GOD... (1 John 4:8)
If one is delivering a message which CONTAINS FEAR... (which HELL & torment DEFINITELY DOES), then the message itself is NOT PERFECT, for LOVE casts OUT FEAR... and if FEAR is present in the message, then the message is corrupted BY IT, for it is not found CAST OUT.
If FEAR is casted OUT of the "messenger", then it is no longer a PART of the "messenger", ...and if no longer a PART of the "messenger", ...how can it be PART of His message? :omg:
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.
Well... I believe I have made my point about the appearance and [IMO] misunderstanding of the this word [phobos] in Scripture... as it is applied to the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE [GOD] (1 Thes 2:9) and PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)
What "PEACE" is found in FEAR Zeek?
You are more than welcome to disagree with what I have said, brother Zeek...
Thanks Willie for your reply,
I tend to see scripture twofold; one as written to a specific group of peoples (Israel and grafted in gentiles) with regards to a specific literal judgment coming; that no one living at that time would want to go through; which as I've stated in other threads; happened in AD70 imo. The scriptures are full of a "soon return" of Jesus in judgment upon apostate Israel. At the time of the first century, the "Ishmaels were being cast out", and the "Isaacs" being saved from the soon coming judgment. To not warn, and to not instill fear to those who once had tasted the goodness of HIM via the Holy Spirit, but had fallen away; would be a lack of love. Paul, James, Peter, and John were not fooling around. Staying faithful to the end was of absolute importance, to not throw away their inheritance.
I know u are well versed on scripture so won't list all of them re: coming judgment, and the intense desire of those given eyes to see to keep those from falling away and facing destruction:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved
saved from what? soon coming judgment. This was a literal judgment coming. Beware.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction
, and many there be which go in thereat:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction
, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame
, who mind earthly things.)
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety
; then sudden destruction cometh upon them
, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
from the presence of the Lord
, and from the glory of his power;
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:20 For if after
they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
, they are again entangled
therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
sounds to me like something one should fear
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness
, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible
for those who were once enlightened
, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away
, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth
, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful
looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment
, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense
, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful
thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall
Now, I also see the scripture more "internally" or "spiritually" in the sense not a soon coming "literal" destruction, but an "internal" destruction of the carnal mind. In this view; the "dying of the carnal mind" through destruction is a good thing; and is one way to look at scripture. And I think more of the view you take, although; I think u mix "literal" with "spiritual" since you also take "physical death (a literal event) as part of the equation.
So, my two cents. I see both sides.
one other thought:
So, for me; if one sees the judgment as described by the apostles, as coming to every generation rather than just "this generation", as I believe Craig does; then it makes sense to me; to adhere to the apostles warnings; and to be aware, be alert, stay faithful; etc etc.