Punishment/correction lasts 1 day?

[rosered]

 
  God  is good  , and how I thank him for my brothers and sisters in the Lord 
  good words , I feel alot the  same about  the UR  circles  failing to 
 express the warnings  of the Lord  the TRUTH , its not some fluffer nutter sandwich  with nuts and marshmallow cream ..all sweet and gooey  and a delight  to enjoy , 
 the  man whom built the  barn parable comes to mind ,,, tearing down his barn and built up a new one so he could sit at ease  ,,  the  fools soul was required of him at that very time  !
 too many warnings to ignore ...  or water down 
 this parable makes me think as well ......... his goods all thats    acquired  in youth status etc..[wealth /gain can not and will not save him  :mblush:having obtained much IN LIFE  still had not obtained eternal life     under the law it come by violence  much gain ,
 
Paul an example   of when he was a young Pharisee in violence , killing and using his voice against the innocent, Yet Jesus  keeps the Law in High standard ,but even more tight  to   hold /grasp but in an Order , Paul was made a prisoner/bondservant  of Jesus Christ  , no longer sin or the law of men , BUT GOD !

The Rich Young Ruler
 17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

 19"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"

 20And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

 21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

 22But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

 23And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"

 24The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

 25"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

 26They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"

 27Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

 28Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."

 29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,

 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

 31"But many who are first will be last, and the last, first."
 To me it is a different type of family and reward  spiritual in nature  and status , Only God can add cubits to stature ..

[Tony N]

Isaiah 10:16-22 
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
 

Is the above signifying 'hell' ?
Is it a 'normal' 24-hour day or just a period of undefined length?

Getting back to WW's original post:
God our Father is a loving, merciful Father. When He would bring calamity upon Israel it was usually over very quickly rather than long, lingering suffering torment.
Remember when David numbered Israel? David told the prophet he was going to let God decide the punishment. It was over very quickly when 70,000 were killed.
Even the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

Satan and the beast and the other stooge in the LOF are tormented. I think torment has to do with the mind rather than if it was torture which has to do with the body. It is not a death for the three stooges. But it is not torture either.

So, to answer WW's original question, yes, I think it is a day and maybe not a full day at that. But I could be mistaken.

[WhiteWings]

God our Father is a loving, merciful Father.

Seems we already agree on one point 

Even the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

But the stone stays in the water for a long time...
You know what my real problem is?
I think you can't deny there are some warnings in the Bible. I'm not speaking about torture of any kind. But still there warnings.
But if God is so extremely mild in His judgement. The punishment/correction doesn't hurt in anyway. And on top of that it's so short in duration that you hardly notice it.
Why did Jesus waste His breath on it?

Satan and the beast and the other stooge in the LOF are tormented. I think torment has to do with the mind rather than if it was torture which has to do with the body. It is not a death for the three stooges. But it is not torture either.

Depends on which of Strongs defenition you choose to use.
One of them is really torture. The other is "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"
Personally I think it's the second defenition. I won't go into that otherwise the threda will sidetrack again :-)

So, to answer WW's original question, yes, I think it is a day and maybe not a full day at that. But I could be mistaken.

In daily life I would have accepted that conclusion. But not so on TentMaker 
There are so many defenitions around for the word day.
Day is a literal 24-hour (12-hour) day as we see it on our own watch? No stuff like "for me is a 1000 years like  a day"

[Tony N]

God our Father is a loving, merciful Father.

Seems we already agree on one point 

Even the judging at the Great White Throne is very quick. And they are not tortured in the lake of fire. They are **cast** into that death. The word "cast" reveals a very quick action. When we cast a stone into a puddle it is very quickly done.

But the stone stays in the water for a long time...
You know what my real problem is?
I think you can't deny there are some warnings in the Bible. I'm not speaking about torture of any kind. But still there warnings.
But if God is so extremely mild in His judgement. The punishment/correction doesn't hurt in anyway. And on top of that it's so short in duration that you hardly notice it.
Why did Jesus waste His breath on it?

Dear WW, Thanks for your reply. I was just trying to get this thread back on track.

By the way, concerning your statement: "But the stone stays in the water for a long time..." I would reply, Not always. Often the puddle dries up. And even should they be in the LOF for thousands of years, they are still not tortured by it due to being in unconscious death. I would say God's  indignation and fury, affliction and distress (Rom 2:9) is brief prior to the internment into death, the 2nd death.

Peace bro!
Tony

Jesus never spoke about the LOF but about Gehenna. And even then, no one suffers in the fires of Gehenna which is the trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem. Rather, they are executed first and then their body is dumped into the trash dump to be eaten with worms or to be burned up if the fire gets to the carcass.

Jesus warned his hearers about Gehenna because it is a great loss and very humiliating for one to miss out on the glorious 1000 year reign.

I don't know if I intimated that God is mild in his judgments. I guess one could come to that conclusion but I would still say that though death is the worst that God inflicts upon a person, it is still done speedily, at least in the Scriptures.

[davidsulem]

There are words in the Bible,  which refer to the future judgement in terms of degrees of judgement, e.g. more tolerable than Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement, and more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you.

Matthew 10:14-15
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Matthew 11:21-22
21 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

Jesus Christ says that everyone will not face the same level of judgement in the Great White Throne Judgement Age. Here, we are talking about the judgement of unbelievers only, because believers will not face God's judgement in the Lake of Fire.

When Jesus walked on this earth, the Jews had His light available to them in person, but they were blind to it. Jesus says that the people of Tyre and Sidon, and even the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, will require less judgement than the unbelieving Jews who plotted to kill Him.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Yes, the Bible says that there will be different levels and degrees of judgement, punishment and humbling experiences for unbelievers in the age to come judgement. However, ALL of God's judgements flow out of His love and are designed to lead people to their Saviour, and not to eternal torture in hell.

How long will the judgment of unbelievers last? As long as it takes for all unbelievers to come to repentance and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ through God given faith to believe in Christ's death and resurrection. This is an age abiding future corrective judgement. Personally, I believe the Great White Throne Judgment Age will be of a very short duration of several years only.  Also, please note that all unbelievers will be resurrected in their immortal spiritual yet still unsaved bodies at the start of the Great White Throne Judgement Age.

Blessings

[Tony N]

Personally, I believe the Great White Throne Judgment Age will be of a very short duration of several years only.  Also, please note that all unbelievers will be resurrected in their immortal spiritual yet still unsaved bodies at the start of the Great White Throne Judgement Age.

Blessings

Hi David,
I am curious where the scripture verse is for that last sentence? How can "dead" be "immortal" when it states "I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne."

[rosered]

Well  
 I dont explain myself very good ,
  I so wish that  were different
   the Great White Throne  judgment ,  TO me is the  ALL dressed IN WHITE  [meaning cleansed]
 making up the throne , you shall judge angels etc .. seated with me as I overcame   and sit ......Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    to me also it is a DAILY [DAY /CHRIST IS ]  event , it is future for some and some it is now and for some it is happened  already ..........

   to me only I only give a view  ,,  and considered it
   that the requirements to   be  employed by the Lord, has a job description  in the army of God a solder so to speak  , and Paul was filling that as ambassador [in place of  type, representing  his  BOSS Jesus Christ & /COUNTRY which is heaven and order of things  

   thats all  the point  me is struggling to spit out here ..Greek for G4243presbeuō ambassador
 1) to be older, prior by birth or in age

2) to be an ambassador, act as an ambassadorEph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. ambassador  

c.1374, from M.Fr. ambassadeur, from O.Fr. embassator, via Prov. or O.Sp. from L. ambactus "a servant, vassal," from Celt. amb(i)actos "a messenger, servant," from PIE *ambhi- "about" *ag- "drive, lead." Cf. embassy. Forms in am- and em- were used indiscriminately 17c.-18c.

[studier]

Yes, the Bible says that there will be different levels and degrees of judgement, punishment and humbling experiences for unbelievers in the age to come judgement. However, ALL of God's judgements flow out of His love and are designed to lead people to their Saviour, and not to eternal torture in hell.

That is what people need to understand even in the UR Message; because unsoundly, there are people who continue to believe that any judgment, or punishment is a contradiction to the character of God, believe God to spoil His Children by sparing the rod.

You are free because Sin and death cannot hold you prisoner forever.   But you still reap what you sow.   If now, you are sowing good seed, you will reap the consequences of that good seed.  If you are a deceiver now, whether you claim to know christ or not, you will still reap the concequences of what you sow.  No getting around it.

This is what people need to understand even in the UR Message, we are free because sin and death cannot hold us forever! Not that we are free from reaping and sowing.

Hebrews 6:7-9
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

How long will the judgment of unbelievers last? As long as it takes for all unbelievers to come to repentance and accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ through God given faith to believe in Christ's death and resurrection. This is an age abiding future corrective judgement.

Right!

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to aionios kolasis, but the righteous to aionios zoe."

If people used the correct definition of aionios, this would be very obvious. There is no word like it in English or Latin so it is difficult to understand. Aionios is an adjective which applies the meaning that the noun it is describing has an indeterminate duration which is based on the intrinsic nature of the noun it describes.

AIONIOS is "An indeterminate duration of which the maximum is fixed by the intrinsic nature of the persons or things. Or they last ever so long - so long as they last!"  -Pétavel-Olliff, Emmanuel, (1836-1910), The Problem of Immortality.

Kolasis means corrective punishment, therefore aionios kolasis ends when correction is complete. How long that takes, depends on the individual receiving the correction and the one administering the correction. That is what aionios kolasis means.


To answer WhiteWings.

According to Scripture, that correction lasts metaphorically one 24 hour day or two ages, a day and a night.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment rises for an age and an age. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10
They will be basanizō [tested under pressure] [a] day and [a] night, for an age and an age.

[willieH]

You have not been set free from reaping and sowing, you been just taken captive from man and placed into the Hands of God. The New Law is one of accountability and responsibility.

Oh really?  Where is this "NEW LAW" mentioned? And is stated to be ACCOUNTABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY? 

No Scriptural support noted here, upon which to found this statement...    So it is thereby relegated to being:

Nothing but an OPINION... there is no Scripture which notes MAN is RESPONSIBLE for SIN... (book, chapter, verse - please)

Also... ALL MEN are in the HANDS of GOD... please!  JUDGMENT is for ALL... just because SOME have been given ears to hear of GRACE, does not remove the deeds of their lives from being what they ARE, WERE, or WILL BE...

Interpretation, brings about observation and conclusion... and there is no NEW LAW (book, chapter, verse - please!)... God's LAW was NOT removed... (Matt 5:17) it was FULFILLED... and IN CHRIST... that LAW does not present NEGATIVITY...

Scripture states that ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the Son (John 5:22)...

and the Son PLAINLY STATED, that He JUDGETH NO MAN (John 12:47)...

It is the DEEDS of our lives which come into JUDGMENT... (1 Cor 3:11-15)

Those deeds are done NOW... as IS the JUDGMENT of them (John 12:31)...

in THIS FIRE we NOW live in... (Rev 3:18)

John 8:15  YE JUDGE... after the FLESH... I, JUDGE NO MAN... (Scripture notes that JESUS is the SAME yesterday, today and forever... Heb 13:8 -- if He makes a statement, then it STANDS FOREVER and He clearly stated that He JUDGES -- NO MAN!)

CHRIST notes here that MEN "judge" after the FLESH... which is the common observation of JUDGMENT ...BY MEN... but CHRIST noted that

1. HE came NOT to JUDGE... (John 12:47) and
2. that He JUDGES NO MAN... (John 8:15)


WHY?  Because GRACE is the JUSTICE of the DIVINE (Rom 5:14-21)...
 
WHY?  Because the DIVINE is working ALL THINGS, according to ITS PURPOSE? (Eph 1:11)...
 
WHY?  To instill the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... (Gen 3:22)

His IMPARTIAL PURPOSE, ...is NOT to reward one for deeds HE DID NOT DO for CHRIST is working in those who SIN NOT... or to CURSE another for deeds HE DID DO... when CHRIST is NOT working in those who SIN...

It is GOD who DRAWS helpless men unto Himself, ....GIVES EARS to HEAR, then speaks to those whom HE has chosen to, ...JUSTIFIES according to HIS purpose, not the according to the limited and finite observations of MEN, which think to propose JUDGMENT of others, which they are TOLD NOT to do! (Matt 7:1)

3. That we are to JUDGE NOT... (why? - because we "judge" after the flesh as CHRIST stated that men DO!)

This is TOO SIMPLE for LAWYER-TYPES to understand... for they are caught up in their ego's, ...puffed up because of their "knowledge"... instead of letting the entirety of themselves fall to HUMILITY before GOD... and KNOW that GOD is IN CONTROL... and that HE is ORCHESTRATING this whole "kit & kaboodle"!   

This isn't a competition!  And GOD is no respecter of persons (PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL)...

So wherein is this EQUALITY found, when one guy is born in poverty and amongst criminals and is subsequently INFLUENCED by that environment... and the other guy is born the son of Billy Graham, and thereby wallows in plenty, and good INFLUENCES?

The EQUALITY is found in GOD... He HARDENS, He softens, He justifies, because HE is WORKING His PURPOSE in ALL...

ALL SIN ...IS... taken away... if TAKEN AWAY, then it is REMOVED... if REMOVED wherein is RESPONSIBILITY... and there is NO NEW LAW... there is GRACE which is LOVE which SAVES ALL...

Reap and Sow are principles which ACTIVELY govern the deeds of THIS LIFE - (which is DEATH) within TIME... The observer here takes behavior done HERE in FLESH and transposes punishments for said deeds, to the realm of SPIRIT LIFE in the ETERNAL...

The understanding of GRACE, is NOT a license which frees man to misbehave and thereby SIN... 

GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS... which is too simple for the complex to understand... and too complex for ANY MAN to totally observe! 

So we are left with two most definite options which are ORDAINED of GOD:

1.  Promote LOVE, which teaches that GOD so LOVED the WORLD that He sent His only SON to SAVE it... that GOD was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD... that JUSTICE belongs to GOD alone... that SIN was TAKEN AWAY... that FORGIVENESS is DIVINE JUSTICE,  or:

2.  Promote that which is NOT of LOVE... and is TWO FACED... In ONE FACE -- telling the WORLD that GOD "LOVES them", but then TURN FACE -- telling them that He's GONNA GETCHA, if you don't listen to ME...

AND that VENGENCE is His PURPOSE and method of RECONCILIATION... (conveniently noting themselves as not due to receive any of this HORROR)

AND that YOU pay for your SIN if you don't HEAR those CLAIMING they are  preach this in the name of "LOVE"... 

CHRIST gave no such example in His life, nor in His treatment of MEN...  He was NOT vengent...  He did NOT do anything which remotely displayed such a trait...  He taught to FORGIVE, for men KNOW NOT what they DO...  And in His ministry, He FORGAVE, over & over & over again... NOT ONCE exacting VENGENCE on ANYONE... (please don't cite the Moneychangers in the temple... NO MAN suffered, the principles they purposed suffered - the TABLES were thrown down... CHRIST did not physically "assault" the moneychangers -- He "assaulted" their merchandise and means)

There is no hedge, tradition, or excuse that can decieved the ears of men when it is God who is your judge. It seems to me that the UR message by some has avoided this to the point of delusion and willful ignorance

I agree... LOVE and GRACE and FORGIVENESS are NOT the message of many which have come to "know" UR... rather... just a different VERSION of HELL is preached, and an undisclosed but FINITE duration imposed upon it...

JESUS gave no such instruction to teach this... He said: 

Matt 28:19-20 ...Go ye therefore and teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ...teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you...

Where did He COMMAND them to teach of HELL or some "UR alternative"? 

What commands did He give?  FORGIVE your enemies -- JUDGE NOT -- Bring the GOSPEL of SALVATION to them... YES!!!   

Tell them about HELL? -- Tell them they are going to be DAMNED if they don't listen to you?  NO!!!

Believe what you will... 


peacE...
willieH 

[studier]

Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

[willieH]

Good works do not get you to heaven, the just shall live by faith. If by faith, then good works are present. If there are no good works present, then your faith is null and you deny Him who purchased you.

On the surface this sounds nice, but... Only GOD draws men to good works... and
ONLY GOD performs good works, within them...

There are MANY which do "good works" in their lives... which do not know CHRIST...

There are many OUTSIDE of CHRISTIANITY, which by nature are doing GOOD WORKS... there are many humans which do things that can be observed as "GOOD WORKS", yet they might not even follow any given "faith"...

So it is a bit off-base to deduce GOOD WORKS as the sole evidence of FAITH of CHRIST, present or NOT present in the one observed...  There are also many which claim CHRIST present in themselves (professing to have faith), which are not about GOOD WORKS...

It is LOVE which reveals that CHRIST is working in one... for CHRIST is LOVE... and Scripture notes:

John 13:35  by THIS shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples: if ye have LOVE, one to another

The above noted observance [in blue above] is the JUDGMENT deduction of another according to FLESHLY observance, which CHRIST noted men to be actively DOING... "Ye JUDGE after the FLESH... I judge NO MAN"...

Men who are NOT DRAWN, shall not exhibit the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH within them... which is NOT their "call"... it is according to DIVINE order...

You do not DO the good works... CHRIST does them IN YOU...  If it is YOU which claim to author your "good works"... then YOU thereby claim the glory for them... which in fact, usurps GLORY due to CHRIST...

All you "DO" is yield to Him, and He thereby works IN YOU... i.e. Authoring the FAITH you claim as YOURS... which is ACTUALLY HIS:

PAUL noted this teaching... (Gal 2:20)

20  ...I am crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I... but CHRIST LIVETH ...IN ME... and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH OF the SON OF GOD... (not MY FAITH, ...HIS)

It is very simple, the Gospel is not complicated.

I agree with this... the GOSPEL is not complicated... but it certainly is NOT observed in truth by many which suppose to proclaim it...

We'll all face ourselves AND the TRUTH in resurrection, as to whether we promoted and taught the GOSPEL in TRUTH or not...   

peacE...
willieH 

[martincisneros]

WillieH,

Easy on the pouncing on something like that:

The commandments, deeds, and redemption by Christ are called "Law" in Romans 8:2: The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Corinthians 9:21: to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Romans 3:27 calls New Covenant faith a law:  Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?  Of works?  No, but by the law of faith.

Love is called a commandment in the New Covenant.  Love does entail accountability and responsibility.  Galatians 6 talks about restoring someone overtaken in a trespass.  James 5 says how with the confession of faults to one another that would be highlighted by the Holy Spirit to relate to our healing so that we'll find healing with the anointing of oil and forgiveness of sin, because we're walking in the light as He's in the light in our fellowship with one another, per 1John 1:7.  The anointing with oil in James 5 would very likely allude back to the anointing with oil in Leviticus 14, but I'm not a very good expounder on Scriptural allegories so I'll leave that to someone else to comment on if they're so inclined.

I've got too much to do today, otherwise I'd continue with this post, but I just "had a feeling" that I should "check in" on what's been going on.  I'll ask Craig at this point to go ahead and give the Scriptures denoting personal responsibility even related to sin.

[willieH]

Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

The BLIND will NOT SEE... as you amply display... 

   Just more of your OPINION which is without Scriptural foundation... no NEW LAW... no notation to support your words except YOUR WORDS... 

I am hardly insecure... more wreckless, baseless and USELESS words from you which you shall face one day... to your regret. 

I forgive you for them...     ...as my Master instructed me to... 

peacE...
willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Martin!

WillieH,

Easy on the pouncing on something like that:

The commandments, deeds, and redemption by Christ are called "Law" in Romans 8:2: The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Corinthians 9:21: to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Romans 3:27 calls New Covenant faith a law:  Where then is boasting?  It is excluded.  By what kind of law?  Of works?  No, but by the law of faith.

The "LAW of LOVE" and the "NEW COVENANT" are not "NEW" rather are REVELATION...  that which was NOT (SPIRITUALLY) KNOWN prior... it appears as "NEW" for it was veiled... but THAT which is ETERNAL, never changes... The application of "NEW"... is to state CHANGE...

The "LAW of LOVE" ...ALWAY IS bro... the NEW COVENANT is REVELATION of the ETERNAL and SPIRITUAL reality... which also ALWAYS IS...

When you have a veil on a "new" piece of art... it is not MANIFEST into EXISTENCE, as the veil is removed, ...it is "REVEALED"... it was there all the time... just OBSCURED from your vision... So the painting was not NEW... it was just unseen or unpercieved.  Goodness sakes!  the painting might have been completed 10 years ago!   

Love is called a commandment in the New Covenant.

Its all in how you look at it Martin... 

It is a BASIS and foundation... the "commandment" aspect is to display it, not be LIMITED or FORCED by IT...

LOVE ...ALWAYS IS... for LOVE is GOD... and GOD is LOVE... God never changes... but it's REVELATION to FINITES brings change to THEM...

The "LAW of LOVE" never has been, never will be "NEW"... it is ETERNAL... and UNCHANGING... but to FINITES... which DO CHANGE... it's (LOVE'S) REVELATION appears as "NEW" to those who CHANGE...

Love does entail accountability and responsibility.

 

I have never said we were not accountable for ourselves and our lives... however, ...RESPONSIBILITY is where the BUCK STOPS, bro...  accountability is FACING that which is TRUE... RESPONSIBILITY is found at the ROOT or essence of something...

CHRIST took RESPONSIBILITY for SIN to the cross...

GOD created us, knowing beforehand, that we would ALL fail, and ORDAINING it to be so (concluding us ALL in UNBELIEF)...

The RESPONSIBILITY of SALVATION from that UNBELIEF/SIN is HIS...  for HE brought us forth,  ...HE created EVIL, ...and HE created the parameters of SIN, ...and HE created the result of them which is DEATH... so HE is found RESPONSIBLE for them, and to WHOM they occured. 

Galatians 6 talks about restoring someone overtaken in a trespass.

WORK of CHRIST in us...

James 5 says how with the confession of faults to one another that would be highlighted by the Holy Spirit to relate to our healing so that we'll find healing with the anointing of oil and forgiveness of sin, because we're walking in the light as He's in the light in our fellowship with one another, per 1John 1:7.

 

Again, the WORK of CHRIST in us...

The anointing with oil in James 5 would very likely allude back to the anointing with oil in Leviticus 14, but I'm not a very good expounder on Scriptural allegories so I'll leave that to someone else to comment on if they're so inclined.

Likely... but still the WORK of GOD in us bro... (as HE works ALL THINGS, after the counsel of HIS own WILL - Eph 1:11)

I've got too much to do today, otherwise I'd continue with this post, but I just "had a feeling" that I should "check in" on what's been going on.  I'll ask Craig at this point to go ahead and give the Scriptures denoting personal responsibility even related to sin.

If we had PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, it would be so named in the WORD... We shall give ACCOUNT, ...which means we must "FACE the music"...

But CHRIST took AWAY the Sin of the WORLD (John 1:29)... If the SIN is "taken away" how is it STILL THERE to be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for?

The wrath of GOD is NOW bro...

(Rom 1:18)  for the WRATH of GOD ...IS... [not will be] revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

The JUDGMENT of this world is NOW:

(John 12:31)  NOW ...IS... the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD [not later];  NOW is the prince of THIS WORLD cast out... [not later]

Craig is welcome to (try to) substanciate his "claims"... no problemo! 

peacE...
willieH 

[studier]

Again another baseless rebuttal that has no substance on anything and doesn't even address anything that I wrote. Just more of your vain imaginations and stupid arguments coming from your own insecurity. When you actually take time to listen, then post; otherwise you are just meaningless noise.

The BLIND will NOT SEE... as you amply display... 

   Just more of your OPINION which is without Scriptural foundation... no NEW LAW... no notation to support your words except YOUR WORDS... 

I am hardly insecure... more wreckless, baseless and USELESS words from you which you shall face one day... to your regret. 

I forgive you for them...     ...as my Master instructed me to... 

peacE...
willieH 

You should do less writing and more listening, nothing you wrote is relevant to what I presented, you just let your imagination get carried away and invent problems and issues that don't exist. As I said, your posts are irrelevant and demonstrates your inability to listen before you speak. Every administrator in this forum has pointed this out, even in this thread.

You have a fear and sin consciousness and it is obvious, it is YOUR problem Willie, and you don't have long to sort it out in your present life.

[willieH]

You should do less writing and more listening, nothing you wrote is relevant to what I presented, you just let your imagination get carried away and invent problems and issues that don't exist.

I addressed you, and your UNBIBLICAL statements without foundation...   

I call you on it... you then avoid answering me, as you are without substanciation for your OPINIONATED words...

Instead, DEVOID of LOVE, you make things personal... further displaying SPIRITUAL inadaquacy...

As I said, your posts are irrelevant and demonstrates your inability to listen before you speak. Every administrator in this forum has pointed this out, even in this thread.

As is your habit, you hereby attempt to corral others to side with you, in your effort to deal with me... Trying to gain support for your inherent insecurity... Please!

You should know by now that it does not matter to me whether or not anyone here agrees with the views I have... 

I see no point in further indulging you,  as you have nothing of value to say, which is made obvious in your reply...

peacE...
willieH 

[Zeek]

 
Pro 27:19 As in water face [answereth] to face, so the heart of man to man. 

[Nathan]

Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

I didn't understand the proverbs verse until I looked it up in this other translation.  It helps me a lot.

19 Just as water mirrors your face,
   so your face mirrors your heart
(Message Translation)

[studier]

Willie, how many times does this have to be said, What you say has no relevance to what I wrote. It is all in your head, your arguments are made up from your own imagination. Nothing you wrote addresses anything I believe to refute it, so why would I reply to it? You are off your handle man, you have no idea what you are talking about. That is why I have nothing to do with what you write. Either listen to the conversation and reply appropriately or continue doing what you are doing. It doesn't bother me any more, all it does is cause strife.

[studier]

Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

Sorry about that...that is because the rules of the forum change, there was less tolerance for this in the beginning but people complained that they were being censored and so now you get to see non-sense conversations that really don't address anything and somehow it was thought that this actually helps the forum. I don't know any more, all I know is that WillieH's reply is so full of fallacy, putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and using slippery slopes that I never entered to make a case that has no point. Hence, why his replies have no substance so why would I even address them.

As for the proverb, I am sure we can go into passed discussions on this forum and find a place where you are taken out of context and then apply it to impose some superficial perception where you look ugly but you really weren't it was just manipulation or misinterpretation of the events. So it too is just non-sense to try to find a 'bad guy' where there isn't any.

If WillieH kept to the discussion and actually listened rather than go off on a tangent, this discussion would be far less porcupine.

[martincisneros]

Reading these conversations is like eating a porcupine.

Sorry about that...that is because the rules of the forum change, there was less tolerance for this in the beginning but people complained that they were being censored and so now you get to see non-sense conversations that really don't address anything and somehow it was thought that this actually helps the forum.

I'm not the one that locked the thread.  I was busy with a job application for a local Kroger grocery store.  Uh...yeah....this is a good place to call it quits with this thread.  What was about one day photo delivery correction has turned into why are we all so different at these boards with the accusations of who's going to spend the most time burning in Hell over it. I'm going to be pulling needles out of my mouth for the rest of the evening!