Author Topic: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.  (Read 1475 times)

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Offline Brian

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Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« on: June 06, 2009, 03:00:57 AM »
So, what's the official :laughing7: universalist stance?
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline jabcat

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 03:25:39 AM »
Hi Brian. I have reasons to believe when God chooses someone, He doesn't unchoose them.

I also believe a lot of the reasons there's so much confusion on the topic is because many (including me) for so long have taken things Jesus said to Israel about what was coming in 70 AD and attempt to apply it to New Covenant believers today about heaven/hell/salvation;  also, things Paul said about rewards and sonship and attempt to apply it to heaven/hell/salvation.

IMO, as with most topics, answers to your Q may include one or both of these options:

1) Yes, you can lose it (ignore any scriptures other than the select few I choose to use to support my view).

2) No, you can't lose it (ignore any scriptures other than the select few I choose to use to support my view).

We're sure somethin', ain't we?   :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 04:32:31 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 04:32:09 AM »
I have learned to love my Savior, And trust Him more each day;
For no matter what the trial, He will always be the way.

"Doubt hinders faith, but trust kindles confidence."

peacemaker

Offline jabcat

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 04:37:33 AM »
 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 05:00:27 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sparrow

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 06:11:24 AM »
I have learned to love my Savior, And trust Him more each day;
For no matter what the trial, He will always be the way.

"Doubt hinders faith, but trust kindles confidence."

peacemaker

Beautiful!
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 08:59:18 AM »
I think this variation is closer to UR: Aways saved (,never lost)


Nice watch Brian :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Brian

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 09:21:37 AM »
Hi Brian. I have reasons to believe when God chooses someone, He doesn't unchoose them.

I also believe a lot of the reasons there's so much confusion on the topic is because many (including me) for so long have taken things Jesus said to Israel about what was coming in 70 AD and attempt to apply it to New Covenant believers today about heaven/hell/salvation;  also, things Paul said about rewards and sonship and attempt to apply it to heaven/hell/salvation.


Interestingly enough, a guy I know who holds to loosin' it, is is a prederest, meaning he believes most of the warnings were about 70 AD. However, he contends that the early church fathers, the same ones who held to UR, held to it. 
My question would be what is the nature of the covenant a believer enters with God? Isn't he selling his soul to God which is bought with the Blood of Jesus?
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline jabcat

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 11:20:49 AM »
I see it a little differently.  I don't think we sell God anything.  I think it's more like a slave market, where we're just standing there captive, helpless in our chains.  Then Jesus walks up to the slave owner and presents an envelope with a seal of the Holy Spirit on it.  Inside is a deed with yours and my name on it.  It's marked in blood,  Paid In Full. 

It reclaims us from the captor.

Would Jesus ever tear up that deed?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 08:41:11 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline FineLinen

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 02:22:11 PM »
I know a covenant that requires only One Endorser!

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."


In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline Sarah

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 07:28:26 PM »
This is a strange questions as it applies to a urist because to us it can't mean 'saved from hell'. But if I apply salvation to mean living free from sin and death in the here and now, then yes, you can certainly loose your salvation. Iv'e seen it and experienced it.

Offline willieH

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 08:03:40 PM »
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:

To begin with... It is pretty common Christian thought that one cannot "DO" anything to "get to Heaven"... (and I agree with this thinking)... If this "thinking" is TRUE, then it therefore serves REASON that if you cannot "DO" anything to "GET IN"... there is also nothing can you "DO" to be "DISALLOWED"   :declare:

So, what's the official :laughing7: universalist stance?

I'm not a "Universalist" (though I do believe in the Salvation of ALL), but...

How can YOU "LOSE" something YOU never "GAINED" in the first place?

CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN...  and the DEATH that He "tasted" certainly was not PHYSICAL death... for every man  individually DIES physicially...

Also CHRIST stated that He would NEVER leave or FORSAKE us...  :dontknow:

There are a couple reasons to chew on...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 09:48:19 AM »
Revelation 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

He that overcometh is saved imo.
But 'and' seems to indicate that there is no once saved is always saved.
-> I think that's called a fallen away Christian. One can't fall away is s/he wasn't is a "saved state" to fall away from...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Sarah

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 06:23:41 PM »
Quote
He that overcometh is saved imo.
But 'and' seems to indicate that there is no once saved is always saved.

 :thumbsup:

Salvation is overcoming. Not everyone overcomes while in this body. In fact some return to their sin as 'a dog to its vomit'.

And what are the works that we keep when we overcome? ....to love God and our neighbor.

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 03:15:53 PM »
Quote
1) Yes, you can lose it (ignore any scriptures other than the select few I choose to use to support my view).

2) No, you can't lose it (ignore any scriptures other than the select few I choose to use to support my view).

Dear brother Jabcat

Why do we comcern ourselves with these trivialities in the first place? What is our ultimate aim? Is it not salvation for all? Whether we are chosen of God or not we will never know for sure. But if salvation is truly our aim, then why not do what the Scriptures say and trust in God.

The Scritures say;
"ůseeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, 
 
  in your faith supply moral excellence

and in your moral excellence, knowledge (knowledge of God).

and in your knowledge, self-control, 

and in your self-control, perseverance,

and in your perseverance, godliness,

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, 

your brotherly kindness, LOVE

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing they render you   neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; ;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom  of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." [color]  (2Pet.1:3-11).

Here everyone has the basic steps to their ultimate goal, salvation. No mention of studying and use of brain power delving, just a heartfelt desire to increase our practice in godly living In this way we can determine whether we are truly His chosen or not. If we follow these rules that Book, we so desire to look into, will be revealed by God and not by personal effort, which is the wrong approach.

It is a practical effort on our part with God's help and nothing to do with inner spirituality. The divine quality of inner spirituality will come by grace from God as we increase in our practice of godly living.

Love is of God, love is God, this comes with love to all

Roy    (UK)[color]


Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 03:40:43 PM »
Quote
Salvation is overcoming. Not everyone overcomes while in this body. In fact some return to their sin as 'a dog to its vomit'.

And what are the works that we keep when we overcome? ....to love God and our neighbor

Dear sister Sarah

Well spoken. Salvation comes from God by grace from God as a reward for godly living which is love for God and neighbour bringing in its wake inner spirituallity. Which is love.

Not just some return to their old self, the Scriptures that many (most) return like a dog to its vomit. And your are right "Once saved always saved" does not apply to UR thinking, since all are saved.   :goodpost:

Love is of God. Love IS God. This comes to all with love.

Roy   (UK)

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 03:56:04 PM »
Quote
I have learned to love my Savior, And trust Him more each day;
For no matter what the trial, He will always be the way.

"Doubt hinders faith, but trust kindles confidence."

peacemaker

Dear brother Peacemaker

Well spoken. Always; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING "  (Pro.3:5).  Because, "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25).

That is precisely the course that man is following at the present time thinking it is the right thing to do, study Gods Word and in the process court death.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 04:09:02 PM »
Quote
Beautiful!


Dear brother/sister Sparrow

You express my sentiments to the letter. A lot of like minds coming to the front in this thread, and that is good, it is very, very good. Refreshing and greatly edifying.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 04:57:20 PM »
Quote
My question would be what is the nature of the covenant a believer enters with God? Isn't he selling his soul to God which is bought with the Blood of Jesus?


Dear brother Brian

Yes the seller is on sale to Satan or God. And God has purchased him with His blood, Satan however expects it for free. I'd rather sell mine to the One who has paid such a heavy price for it. It's as simple as that.

In passing I would just like to say that I hope this salutation of mine "Dear brother or sister" isn't being troublesome to anyone. I am just following the Lord's teaching; "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." (Matt.23:8). So if we are all brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus and we have a healthy respect for Him we should have the same respect for our neighbours, moreso brothers and sisters in Him. He did say; "This I command you, that you love one another. (JN.15:17). We we love one another then we should respect one another.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy  (UK)

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2009, 05:10:20 PM »
Quote
"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Dear brother FineLinen.

Is this a quote from Scripture, if so could you please quote it in detail with the reference.

  Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2009, 05:45:55 PM »
Quote
This is a strange questions as it applies to a urist because to us it can't mean 'saved from hell'. But if I apply salvation to mean living free from sin and death in the here and now, then yes, you can certainly loose your salvation. Iv'e seen it and experienced it.

Dear sister Sarah

You and I are beginning to see things in the same light. What you say is, in my opinion, absolutely true. The apostle Peter confirms this;   Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence,

in your faith supply moral excellence,

and in your moral excellence, knowledge, (knowledge of God).

and in your knowledge, self-control,

and in your self-control, perseverance,

and in your perseverance, godliness,

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness,

your brotherly kindness, LOVE

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."
(Pet.1:3-11).

Here everyone has the basic steps to their ultimate goal - salvation. No mention of studying and use of brain power delving, just a heartfelt desire to increase our practice in godly living . In this way we can determine whether we are truly His chosen or not. If we follow these rules that Book, we so desire to look into, will be revealed by God and not by personal effort, which is the wrong approach.

This is a practical effort on our part with God's help and nothing to do with inner spirituality. The divine quality of inner spirituality will come by grace from God as we increase in our practice of godly living. Salvation centres around godly living, nothing else.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

trettep

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2009, 06:27:49 PM »
Since we can only receive the earnest of our salvation now before the reward is given then we are not steadfastly saved.  If we were then what reason is there for overcoming?  But instead I do believe in "once saved always saved" but that only applys to once we receive the salvation which only occurrs at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So the the salvation that is not in earnest is that which we received at the END of FAITH.  Faith is the evidece of things not seen and the substance of things hoped for.  So if we receive salvation at the END of Faith then that would be when we no longer need to hope.

Paul

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2009, 06:34:35 PM »
Quote
To begin with... It is pretty common Christian thought that one cannot "DO" anything to "get to Heaven"... (and I agree with this thinking)...


Dear brother WillieH.

I tend to disagree with you. It is all about doing, and it is in the doing that by the grace of God we will achieve salvation - get into heaven as you put it.

2Pet.1:1-3 is all about that as I have said in several replies and repeat it here; "ůseeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence,

in your faith supply moral excellence,

and in your moral excellence, knowledge, (knowledge of God).

and in your knowledge, self-control,

and in your self-control, perseverance,

and in your perseverance, godliness,

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness,

and in your brotherly kindness, LOVE

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing , they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. . For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you ; for as long as you practice these things , you will never stumble ;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."(2Pet.1:3-11).

Here everyone has the basic steps to their ultimate goal salvation. No mention of studying and use of brain power delving, just a heartfelt desire to increase our practice in gogly living . In this way we can determine whether we are truly His chosen or not. If we follow these rules that Book, we so desire to look into, will be revealed by God and not by personal effort, which is the wrong approach.

This is a practical effort on our part with God's help and nothing to do with inner spirituality. The divine quality of inner spirituality will come by grace from God as we increase in our practice of godly living.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love
(Roy   (UK)         :bdh:

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2009, 07:05:04 PM »
Quote
How can YOU "LOSE" something YOU never "GAINED" in the first place?

CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN...  and the DEATH that He "tasted" certainly was not PHYSICAL death... for every man  individually DIES physicially...

Also CHRIST stated that He would NEVER leave or FORSAKE us

Dear brother WillieH

We cannot lose what we never gained, that's true. But we can lose what was given us as a gift by grace.

Being pierced by a spear, taken from the cross and burried, I'd say He died a physical death, but in so doing He accomplished the will of His Father and conquered spiritual death in order that we may be made alive through Him.

And lastly His promise is true that He would never forsake us and leave us as orphans, He said He would come to us and so He has, He dwells within us.

Does that answer you, Willie?

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK )and  :hithere: that to you to.

Roy Monis

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2009, 09:17:00 PM »
Quote
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So the the salvation that is not in earnest is that which we received at the END of FAITH.  Faith is the evidece of things not seen and the substance of things hoped for.  So if we receive salvation at the END of Faith then that would be when we no longer need to hope

Dear brother Paul

All this is clearly explained in "2Pet.1:3-11"

If one has faith then one must exercise moral excellence and receive true knowledge, which is the knowledge of God, this knowledge must lead to self-control. Self-control needs perserverance to endure all in godliness and through godliness to exercise brotherly kindness, which equates with love.

We cannot attain to inner spitiruality on our ouw effort, it is a gift from God. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. (Eph.2:8), but faith by itself is worthless unless accompanied by works, What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (Jas.2:14-17)

Love is God and that is one's goal - salvation -  so there is no reason to hope anymore.

Hope is only for those who fail to abide by these quatities or virtues. That is how I understand that Scripture. It is a practical effort on one's part with God's help, and nothing to do with inner spirituality. The divine quality of inner spirituality will come by grace from God as we increase in our practice of godly living. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. These three abide, but when love comes it covers all.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)



Offline Doc

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Re: Once saved always saved vs you can loose your salvation.
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2009, 09:47:45 PM »
Once saved, always saved is held to by Calvinists and some other absolute sovereignty groups. You can lose your salvation is held to by Arminians and other freewill theists.

It seems to me that neither position gets at the real issue, which is that all are eventually saved.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur