Author Topic: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels  (Read 1717 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.

Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not

 :icon_jokercolor:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 05:24:43 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 05:30:26 AM »
Thoughts?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 06:58:04 AM »
Are you joking  :icon_joker:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 09:31:44 AM »
Life is a joke, and then you die. That's what this thread is about what happens if all jokes have been told :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quaesitor

  • Guest
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 03:35:07 PM »
I think there's more than 2 choices left.
It depends on what or who is the devil and his messengers: a fallen angel, carnal mind, evil power?
On what is the fire : punition, correction, purification?
On when is that age-during fire: now, in the future?


Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 04:50:13 PM »
I don't agree Q.

When/where/how long is not really relevant for this thread I think.
"They" are cast into the fire. Who are "they"?

God prepared the fire for the devil and his angels. That's 2 groups.
If humans are cast into that fire that can imo only mean two things
 
  • Humans are the devil or the angels. Still 2 groups.
  • Humans are not the devil or the angels. 3 instead of 2 groups.
Point 1 is obvious; we are angles.
Point 2 seems impossible because it implies Father changed His plan. He planned not to use the fire for humans but later on decides/was forced to do so anyway.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quaesitor

  • Guest
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 05:06:32 PM »
You're right, if the question is who are "they", the rest is irrelevant; I did not understand it that way on the first reading.

Well, if the 2 groups are those with the mind of Christ and those with the carnal mind, then the angels in both case are the messengers or the bearer of those minds.
Same thing as those with the mark of the beast and those with the mark of Christ in the book of revelations.

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 07:26:16 PM »
YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.

Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not

 :icon_jokercolor:

There is a 3rd choice

we are not angels, but humans, but yet even though as humans we have been messangers of the devil, so partake with the devil and his angels in the fire.


Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 07:31:28 PM »
Angel means messenger.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 07:34:35 PM »
But there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Notice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.

 :2c:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 07:45:20 PM »
But there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
I've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.

Quote
Notice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.
That would mean He was (considered) higher to some angels but lower to other angels.
It also avoids TT question  :spank:


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2672
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 07:55:47 PM »
But there are beings called angels. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
I've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.

He is only considered lower by those of the world, such as kings and religious powers, he says that those who wish to be greatest, let him serve another.
But yes he did come as a suffering servant and not to be ministered to but to minister, and so could be thought of as lower than mankind, from our carnal viewpoint.

Quote
Notice it says that Jesus was crowned with glory and honour so that the angels obey him, so even though he was lowered to the earth realm he still was higher in authority than the angels.
That would mean He was (considered) higher to some angels but lower to other angels.

No, I don't see why he would be lower than any angel. He was still God but operated in a limited temple(Think of a powerful warrior in ancient times, this warrior was feared and respected by all, but one day he gets old and now walks around with a crooked back and limps about, with a long grey beard, does this mean his authority is gone? He still retains his glory and honour and the troops still obey him). But one could argue that for that time period he operated and functioned as the son of man, the lamb of GOD the father and being in our likeness he was limited by the sameish authority that Adam had when he was perfect, but being of greater substance he had more faith and heart than Adam and could do greater works.

It also avoids TT question  :spank:

Why are you showing me a video clip of your mother spanking you whitewings  :mblush:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 08:10:56 PM by thinktank »

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2071
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 01:14:16 AM »
It also avoids TT question 

Why are you showing me a video clip of your mother spanking you whitewings  :spank:

 :LH:Cause he knows he deserved it.  :laughing7:

CHB

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 10:08:25 PM »
Angel means messenger.

There is a type of angel that has characteristics that we do not have, e.g. Gabriel.


18And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

--Luke 1


Quote from: ww
I've been thinking about that. He came as a servant (=lower) to mankind.



He was lowered into flesh and blood because we are partakers of flesh and blood.  The angels in heaven are not flesh and blood.


Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

"partakers"

G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneō
koy-no-neh'-o
From G2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 10:24:26 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 11:14:15 PM »
YLTMat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

There are only 2 simple but interesting choices here.

Choice #1: We are not angels, so we are not going into the fire. About who is the verse?
Choice #2: We are angels, and are going into the fire.
Choice #3: We are not angels but still go into the fire. A change in plan. KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not

 :icon_jokercolor:



Aggelos is not exclusive to being an angel.


Quote
G32  aggelos  ang'-el-os

from aggello (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings);

a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel,
messenger.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2010, 12:48:25 AM »
The word for angel is used for the spies that Joshua sends to spy on Jericho.

Joshua 6:17
And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.


"messengers"
H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.


John the Baptist is a messenger [angel] of God.


10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
--Mat 11

"messenger"

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2010, 01:06:17 AM »
so could "the devil and his angels (messengers)" include men then?  i.e., anyone not a messenger of God is a messenger of 'the devil'?

or maybe there's another layer to this;  again, anything not of God tortured (basanismos/tested) and destroyed (apollumi) so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5467
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 04:09:03 AM »
so could "the devil and his angels (messengers)" include men then?  i.e., anyone not a messenger of God is a messenger of 'the devil'?

or maybe there's another layer to this;  again, anything not of God tortured (basanismos/tested) and destroyed (apollumi) so the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.   :2c:

Yes, absolutely.
I really believe that if the translators would have used "messengers" throughout the Bible, instead of "angels" there would be much less of mans imagination to contribute. Like wise with the word hell.  but then again I rest in the knowledge that what we have is just what the Lord God wanted us to have. :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 04:12:41 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 06:52:15 AM »
We must not forget that Jesus had things to say to the Sadducees' doctrines as well as the Pharisees.  Even Jews today, Rabbinical ones have Angelic beings within their "lore" (for lack of a better term) who are not "mortal men" as you and I.

Mat 16:6  Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Act 23:8  For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Messengers who are men, very possible - but there are surely spiritual beings who are spirits indeed, not clothed in clay like we are, not the children of Adam, who are given the office of Messenger also.

Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

These angels, messengers, would have been warriors, powerful ones - and 12 legions, a Roman legion was approximately 6 000 (full legion) men.

72,000 angels/messengers - warriors to defend the King...Christ didn't have that many followers in Judea, or Israel at the time - armed for battle at least, and that is made especially apparent due to his reaction to Peter who is a mortal man seeking to defend him.

Christ's kingdom is not of this world, as he said to Pilate - if it were, his followers would have stopped his arrest.

It is based on this that I believe Angels are not merely...Messenger men, or mortal prophets.  But spiritual beings who are Heavenly in origin, not children of Adam. 


« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 07:01:50 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline reFORMer

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1943
  • Gender: Male
  • Psalm 133
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2010, 07:11:38 AM »
Revelation 228-9 (American Standard Version, 1901)
[8] And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.
[9] And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God.

Unveiling 228-9 (Concordant Literal Translation)
8 And I, John, am the one hearing and observing these things. And when I hear and observe, I fall to worship in front of the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things.
9 And he is saying to me, "See! No! a fellow slave of yours am I, and of your brethren, the prophets and those keeping the sayings of this scroll. Worship God!"
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Lefein

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2010, 07:30:04 AM »
These beings are not 'Adamites', is my expressed point.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2010, 07:41:45 AM »
Aggelos is not exclusive to being an angel.
But that solves nothing I'm affraid.
IF we are angels we are cast in the fire prepared for us.
IF we are not the type of angels mentioned in that verse, or if we are not angels at all we are casr into a fire that was not prepared for us.
Meaning God changed His plan.

Summary 1: God changes or we are angels.
Summary 2: We are cast into a fire that was or was not prepared for us.

Does anyone understand what I'm saying/asking?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2010, 08:00:08 AM »
Yes I do.

Either we (mankind) are included because we're considered the 'angels' in the verse, or it was prepared for others, but God decided at some point to put 'us' (mankind) there too;  which would mean the plan changed from the original intent.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2010, 09:09:52 AM »
 :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5467
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Mat 25:41 everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2010, 03:44:25 PM »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.