Author Topic: Lost coin and wide road  (Read 2770 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2010, 09:28:23 AM »
The word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed."  Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.
....
The middle parable is about the woman ruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.
ruah, pneuma? Can't find that in the parable.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2010, 10:47:48 AM »
How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah?  I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time.  God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy.  Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "Through Isaac your descendants will be named."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Galatians 3
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.




I do understand your point.  But, in the following passage it appears to me that Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of seperately here.

ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)

The highlighted verse supports that the verse is speaking of two seperate peoples.  And the verse goes on to say after speaking of both Gentiles and Israel that God will have mercy on all.  If Israel represents the body of believers the verses do not make sense to me.


LS

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2010, 06:19:25 PM »
I do understand your point.  But, in the following passage it appears to me that Israel and the Gentiles are being spoken of seperately here.

ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)

The highlighted verse supports that the verse is speaking of two seperate peoples.  And the verse goes on to say after speaking of both Gentiles and Israel that God will have mercy on all.  If Israel represents the body of believers the verses do not make sense to me.
Honestly, I think this entire chapter of Romans is telling us that neither jew nor gentiles are "above" or "beneath" the other - they are all now on equal footing. Look at the passages earlier in the chapter about cutting off and grafting in.  I think the passage you quoted is simply saying that the jews are no long "specially protected" as they once were, but are now part of the world, which is subject to "the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." (Ephesians 2:2)  That passage is what comes to my mind when reading about the disobedient.

I don't know - the realization that "Israel" is believers is a conviction that the LORD gave to me and on that I have no doubt. But I'm less firm on some of the rest of this - I see UR believers using this passage to support their position, but fundamentalists who believe in the rapture also use it for an almost opposite purpose.  I find myself reading them with a bit of a spirit of opposition to either of those views, though I'm honestly trying to simply be open and see what Truth is in them, and let the Holy Spirit use it to shape what I believe.

I keep coming back to this: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." and it seems to me that all of chapter 11, including the verses you quoted, are supporting that statement. 



 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2010, 07:04:22 PM »
I keep coming back to this: Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." and it seems to me that all of chapter 11, including the verses you quoted, are supporting that statement.
What exactly does that verse say?

a] Jews and Greeks are equal and treated equally.
b] Jews and Greeks are not equal but God's grace still is enough for all of them.

So if they are not equal then:
KJVRom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2010, 07:57:19 PM »
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.

If that's the case, wouldn't it say "all Israel IS saved"?

EVERY knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord...

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2010, 08:11:52 PM »
Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.

If that's the case, wouldn't it say "all Israel IS saved"?
Dunno James. All I can say is that I miss aorist tense symbols in my Bible. It could very well be true both of you are right.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2010, 08:22:49 PM »
Check this out in the Christian Bible;

IMO, this is obviously talking about natural literal Israel - the nation;  and notice what happens to their sins/wrongdoing/final destiny;

For I don't want you to be ignorant, brothers and sisters, about this secret, so that you might not consider yourselves as intelligent, that a partial callouseness has come upon Israel until the full number of the pagan nations has entered.  So in this way all Israel will be saved, just as it has been written, "the Rescuer will arrive from Zion.  He will turn away the lack of devotion from Jacob.  Now this is My Contract with them, when I remove their wrongdoings".  Romans 11:25-27
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2010, 11:57:48 PM »
I do not see the adversary as a shepard, at all, Im sorry.
Why not? I'm wondering why you picked the most insignificant part of the whole thread and only answer that  :dontknow:

It shouted.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 04:22:01 AM »
The word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed."  Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.
....
The middle parable is about the woman ruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.
ruah, pneuma? Can't find that in the parable.
1st parable:  Father
2nd parable: Woman
3rd parable:  Son

The word for "spirit" in both original languages, Hebrew ruah and Greek pneuma, the gender is feminine.  As the woman was seeking, so also"...the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God." (1 Co 210; Concordant Literal Translation)  If we have a father and son, we need a mother to complete the family.

"...the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, after Whom every kindred in the heavens and on earth is being named..." (Ep 314-15; Concordant Literal Translation)  "Kindred" in the AV is rendered, "family."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2010, 07:25:27 AM »
I was searching those parables for pneuma...
So:
Father = Father-God
Sheperd = Son/Jesus
Woman = HS

Never thought of that.

Waiting
Helping (seeking)
Seeking
?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2010, 07:40:52 PM »
could be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he" maybe he just means that he has a personality even though the holy spirit could be woman/mother/feminine.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2010, 07:46:09 PM »
could be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he"
I think HS is an It...
I'll try to dig up some (Greek) proof for that.

/EDIT

We already spoke about it HERE
Not that it really matters because neither he or it are she :winkgrin:
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 07:54:16 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2010, 06:08:56 AM »
Biblical Greek, Koine, just has one pronoun, it's genderless:  AUTO which means "the same" and it refers to the immediately preceding noun.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline thinktank

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2010, 12:49:08 AM »
could be true even though Jesus calls holy spirit "he"
I think HS is an It...
I'll try to dig up some (Greek) proof for that.

/EDIT

We already spoke about it HERE
Not that it really matters because neither he or it are she :winkgrin:


We only discussed one verse though, there are other verses where Jesus call the spirit, "he".

To me if the spirit is not a personality, then how can God be in us, we'd be no different than say Adam and Eve if the holyspirit, is just power of God. God said whos temple are ye, we are the temple of God.
If the holyspirit be not a personality how can Christ be in us? For these three are one, but without the spirit, then we are without Christ and if without Christ without hope and our faith is in vain.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2010, 01:29:24 AM »
In the most literal translation I own HS is always called "it". Not claiming I remember all verses but I can tell you I'm speaking about more than just a few verses.

It would be sloppy work of the translators to translate "it" 5 times in one verse and all other verses He.

It's  :lazy: :snor: time for me. Perhaps James can give you a few verses.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2010, 08:11:47 AM »
Some preachers have made an issue over the masculine pronoun "He" used by English versions.  They're all het up over the three "Persons" thing.  God's no "it."  (I just think they are too limiting.)  But, in New Testament Greek there is just one, all purpose and genderless pronoun for everything.

This in no way whatsoever should be used to commend The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ which says, "Howbeit, when the spirit of Truth is come, she shall lead you into all Truth that you may know all things."  Please.  No.  Just no.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2012, 12:12:08 PM »
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, so that every man who believes in him would not perish, but have eternal life.

Perish=Lost=Apollumi
Jesus came to restore lost things. Why is lost also translated as destroyed?

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67

With a bit of selective reading  :winkgrin: we see that the meaning is either lost or some sort of destruction that makes something lost.


(Matt 8:25) And the disciples having approached, they awoke him, saying, Save us, Lord, we are perishing.
(Matt 8:26) And he says to them, Why are ye cowardly, O ye of little faith? Then after rising, he rebuked the winds and the sea, and there became a great calm.
Perish=Lost=Perish=Apollumi

They weren't afraid they got lost in the sense of no longer being able to find their way to the shore. Neither was their fear their bodies would be damaged/completly destroyed.
They simply were afraid to die. Losing their lives. Dying is losing life.
ὄλεθρος
olethros

Thayer Definition:
1) ruin, destroy, death
1a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form)
Citing in TDNT: 5:168, 681

Alternative redering here: http://concordances.org/greek/3639.htm
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."


(Luke 19:10) For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Lost coin and wide road
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2012, 06:34:22 PM »
 and he that build withwood hay stubble will suffer loss..but will be saved as through fire= God will burn up misconception and declare truth/correction