Author Topic: Law nailed to the cross?  (Read 2262 times)

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Online WhiteWings

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Law nailed to the cross?
« on: October 16, 2011, 11:46:10 AM »
I regularly read that we live in the age of grace and the law has been done away. Nailed to the cross. It was just a shadow. Etc.
I find such a statement odd because I think most will agree with me that rape, murder, theft, blasphemy are still against the law.
Note: I'm not discussing the type and/or duration of punishment for breaking the law. Not even if there is punishment at all.
I think this verse is proof of that:
Rev 21 [ACV]
8 But for the cowards, and unbelieving, and sinful, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

I think some laws are done away with. For example animal sacrifice. Jesus was the perfect lamb so no more sacrifices are needed. But it's always said "the law is done away"  not "part of the law is done away" or "all laws beside the 10 commandments are done away"
Anyway those are my thoughts and reason why I started this thread.

Col 2 [BBE]
13 And you, being dead through your sins and the evil condition of your flesh, to you, I say, he gave life together with him, and forgiveness of all our sins;
14 Having put an end to the handwriting of the law which was against us, taking it out of the way by nailing it to his cross;

Rev 22 [ACV]
14 Blessed are those doing his commandments, so that their right will be to the tree of life, and they may enter in the gates into the city.
===> People who want to enter the city must follow certain laws/commandments. That means those laws are against the people that not allowed to enter. That simply means those laws are not done away with.

Col 2 [HCSB]
14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.
Col 2 [Knox NT]
14 canceled the deed which excluded us, the decree made to our prejudice, swept it out of the way, by nailing it to the cross;
Col 2 [LEB]
14 having destroyed the certificate of indebtedness in ordinances against us, which was hostile to us, and removed it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.
Col 2 [Murdock ]
14 and, by his mandates, he blotted out the handwriting of our debts, which [handwriting] existed against us, and took [it] from the midst, and affixed [it] to his cross.
Col 2 [RKJVNT]
14 Cancelling the bond of debt, with its legal decrees against us, which was contrary to us, and taking it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2 [TCE]
14 having canceled the certificate of debt, which stood against us with its decrees. He took what was hostile away from us, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2 [TCB]
14 has erased our handwritten [signed] note of debts consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of our way by nailing it to the Stake.
Col 2 [NET]
14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Col 2 [MRC]
14 having erased out the certificate of debt of dogmas against us and that which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of our midst, having nailed it to the cross.

I think especially the last two translations shed some light on the real meaning of "done away".
The certificate/bond/deed of debt is nailed to the cross. Not the law/commandment/regulation itself.

John 19 [ACV]
30 When therefore Jesus received the vinegar, he said, It is finished , and after bowing his head, he gave up the spirit.

"It is finished" actually mean "paid in full". It's a legal term. Laws can't be paid. Debts can.

τελέω
teleō

Thayer Definition:
.....
3) to pay

2Cor 3 [ACV]
3 being seen that ye are a letter of Christ, administered by us, written not in ink, but in the Spirit of the living God, not in stony tablets, but in fleshly tablets, in hearts.

The payment for breaking the laws was done away; not the laws itself because they are now written in our hearts. Obviously something has changed. But what? See a next post. If I can put some coherent proof together  :laughing7:


http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-God-not-forgive.html
http://chrishamer-hodges.blogspot.com/2007/04/it-is-finished-paid-in-full.html
http://www.mollfoto.com/tssv/sermons/Tetelestai.htm
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 01:09:02 PM »
There are 613 laws and regulations in the OT. I think they can roughly split in two (not equal) parts.
The laws that tell us what we should or shouldn't do.
The laws describing punishment if the above mentioned laws are broken.
Some examples:
There is a law that forbids theft. The payment for breaking that law is paying back the amount 2x-5x depending on the situation. Or death in other situations. Link
Lots of animals were sacrificed in OT times as payment for sins.

Col 2 [ACV]
14 having erased the handwriting against us in the regulations that were hostile to us, and he has taken it up from the midst, having nailed it to the cross.

ἐξαλείφω
exaleiphō

Thayer Definition:
1) to anoint or wash in every part
1a) to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster)
2) to wipe off, wipe away
2a) to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out

The debt was wiped out. Not the law. If the law was wiped out it would mean the law wasn't perfect. God makes imperfect laws?

Gal 3 [ACV]
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, Cursed is every man who hangs on a tree.

===> Jesus didn't redeem us from the law, but from the curse (=punishment) of the law.

1John 3 [ACV]
4 Every man doing sin also does lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
===> There can't be lawlessness without a law.

Rom 6 [ACV]
1 What will we say then? We continue in sin so that grace may abound?
2 May it not happen! How will we who died to sin, still live in it?
===> Sinning still exists; because sinning is breaking the law, there still is a law.

Heb 10 [Anderson]
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
10 By which will, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.
===> I think those verse clearly show animal sacrifices are done away with.
===> The OT laws are still in place but the penalty for breaking them was nailed to the cross/paid in full.
===> Because animal sacrifices were used for a wide range of sins the above two verses have a major impact.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 01:22:50 PM »
Another well know one is "the wages of sin is death". It's in the NT but likely expressed an OT concept. I think it didn't always mean the death of the sinner, but often the death of an animal. The sacrifice paid the debt. I must admit I don't see how this applies with parts of the law regarding theft. It was merely paying back. No death involved.

I wonder animal sacrifice was about the animals or the blood. If the latter does that mean it also includes for example being stoned to death? If so is it also covered by Hebrews 10:4,10 ?

Gotta go now.
Something to think about:
Heb 7 [ABU]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people have received the law), what further need was there that a different priest should arise, after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there comes also a change of law.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 01:26:19 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 01:57:43 PM »

The debt was wiped out. Not the law. If the law was wiped out it would mean the law wasn't perfect. God makes imperfect laws?



Eze 20:25 I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 03:30:39 PM »
Be patient red... I think I found something  :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 06:09:44 PM »
Hebrews 7 [Anderson]
11 If, then, there had been a perfect expiation by means of the Levitical priesthood, (for with reference to it, the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should be raised up after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 It is evident that, when the priest hood is changed, there is of necessity a change also of the law.

So all the laws given during the Levitical priesthood must change or even be done away with. I think the first step of figuring out with laws are affected is to know when that priesthood was established.

Exodus 32 [BBE]
28 And the sons of Levi did as Moses said; and about three thousand of the people were put to death that day.
29 And Moses said, You have made yourselves priests to the Lord this day; for every one of you has made the offering of his son and his brother; the blessing of the Lord is on you this day.

If the Bible is in strickt chronological order then every law between Exodus 32:29 (maybe even earlier) and Hebrews 7:12 was changed or done away with. Unfortunatly it's not that easy.
If you check this list you will find laws that obviously will never be done away with. Below a few examples:
Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32)
To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4)
To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) 
To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20)
Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16)
To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9)

1 Corinthians 7 [Anderson]
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but the keeping of the commandments of God is our aim.


I never looked into this before; I learn as I type. So the above likely looks chaotic. Let's all find some some proof of what is and isn't done away with.

I think passover (now easter) is one of the feasts that isn't done away.
Exodus 23 [ACV]
18 Thou shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread, neither shall the fat of my feast remain all night until the morning.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 06:20:19 PM »
I'm not sure laws were "done away with."

He cancelled all the charges against us under those laws by paying the price himself.

So whatever record we have for breaking the law is expunged.

But the law still exists.

That's why we are to forgive others for tresspassing against us, because we are to give grace as we received it.



He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.  [Col 2:14]

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 06:50:55 PM »
And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it. [Heb 7:12]


4The Lord has sworn

and will not change his mind:

"You are a priest forever,

in the order of Melchizedek."  [Psa 110]



Just as there are laws which apply to the priesthood of Aaron, there are now laws which apply to the priesthood of Melchizadek.

The ten commandments were given before the Levitical priesthood, so these do not apply.  These laws were given to [the Melchizedek priest] Moses.

But the rites and regulations of the Levitical priesthood would of necessity be done away with when a new priesthood arrives on the scene.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

For instance, a Melchizedek priest is not limited to a particular tribe [the Levites]. His priesthood is related to the power of an indestructible life.  He is both king and priest, but neither is his kinghood  related to a particular tribe [Judah].  It is related to his relationship with the King of kings, Christ.

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 07:00:10 PM »
Another thing of note:  in the OT we have a priestly class, the Levites, even though God tells Israel he wants them to be a nation of priests.

In the NT, every believer is a Melchizedek priest by definition because this priesthood is given by virtue of an indestructible life.

This is why we are given eternal life.  So that we can act as priests under the High Priest, Christ.

We are also given kingship under Christ, so we are a royal priesthood. [1 Pet 2:9]

So you can see how the Catholic church and her companions err in setting apart a priestly class.

We are now a nation of priests.

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 07:42:16 PM »
I'm not sure laws were "done away with."
I'm not sure you have read my posts.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 07:48:52 PM »
I'm not sure laws were "done away with."
I'm not sure you have read my posts.
I read your posts.  I was responding to this statement in the first post.

Quote
But it's always said "the law is done away"  not "part of the law is done away"


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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 09:45:24 PM »
I'm not sure laws were "done away with."

He cancelled all the charges against us under those laws by paying the price himself.
That's only partly right. You should keep in mind that Jesus changed two things concerning this topic.
As my first post show He payed for tresspasses of every past, present and future law. The penalty for sin was nailed to the cross. Not the law itself. So that verse gives us no proof of even a single law being done away. Proof for that needs to be found elsewhere.

Quoting from my previous posts.
I think the Hebrews 7:11-12 means that God removed each and every law made during the Levite priest era from His book of law. Jesus paid for past trespasses of those laws but not the future ones because none existing laws can't be broken.
Hebrews 10:4,10 just gives an example of laws done away

Heb 7 [ABU]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people have received the law), what further need was there that a different priest should arise, after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there comes also a change of law.

Heb 10 [Anderson]
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
10 By which will, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.
===> I think those verse clearly show animal sacrifices are done away with.
===> The OT laws are still in place but the penalty for breaking them was nailed to the cross/paid in full.
===> Because animal sacrifices were used for a wide range of sins the above two verses have a major impact.


Nothing conclusive but I think a huge percentage of the 613 laws are completely done away. Not changed. Completly blotted out. For example the whole book of Leviticus with is filled with all sorts of laws.
So my wild guess is that the only laws we have now are the Ten Commandments plus a few other laws. I think Saturday Sabbath and (some) food laws are part of them.
I have no clue how many laws the Melchizedek order has.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 10:25:20 PM »
Quote
Heb 10 [Anderson]
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
10 By which will, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.
===> I think those verse clearly show animal sacrifices are done away with.
===> The OT laws are still in place but the penalty for breaking them was nailed to the cross/paid in full.
===> Because animal sacrifices were used for a wide range of sins the above two verses have a major impact.

agree, agree, agree

Quote
think the Hebrews 7:11-12 means that God removed each and every law made during the Levite priest era from His book of law. Jesus paid for past trespasses of those laws but not the future ones because none existing laws can't be broken.
Hebrews 10:4,10 just gives an example of laws done away

Let me clarify myself a little better, if possible.  I might be looking at it from a different point of view but essentially agreeing with you. The Law made provision for the Levite priesthood.  Jesus did away with the Levite priesthood.  Gone.  Done.

All laws pertaining to the Levite priesthood are also done away with.  Gone. Done.

But there are other laws given to Moses apart from the Levite priesthood that are still in effect and will always be in effect because they portray the essence of who God is.  Moses was not a part of the Levite priesthood, remember.

There is now a new priesthood effectuating that Law.

Those laws which are still in effect are those which would condemn us were it not that Jesus has canceled  the record of our trespasses at the cross, like you say, past, present, and future.  Jesus summarized this Law that remains in effect with the two royal commandments, Love God, Love thy neighbor.  Paul tells us, love does no harm and that love is the fulfillment of the Law.

 But we will not die in our sins.  We have already crossed over from death to life through our belief in Christ, justified by faith alone.  We are the new priests after the order of Melchizedek, a priesthood not determined by earthly bloodlines but determined by God and based on an indestructible life.

He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. [Col 2:14]

« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:34:20 PM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 11:21:56 PM »
Good topic, Wings.

I like that post Molly.  :)  Amen!

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »
Quote
But there are other laws given to Moses apart from the Levite priesthood that are still in effect and will always be in effect because they portray the essence of who God is.  Moses was not a part of the Levite priesthood, remember.
I gave a link to a Jewish site listing all 613 laws. I trust that the list is correct. My intention is to find all Levite laws and remove them from that list. o be honest I have to clue how to complete that task. I know the Ten Commandments are not done away because they predate teh Levite priesthood. In Revelion we read about thiefs, murderers etc who are not allowed in the city. So obviously laws concerning those sins are not done away (either). But there are 575+ more laws to investigate. Luckily many of the laws are very much the same. For example there are 16 laws agains incest.

Quote
Those laws which are still in effect are those which would condemn us were it not that Jesus has canceled  the record of our trespasses at the cross, like you say, past, present, and future.
Yeah I wrote that; and still understand it that way. But if I read the 2 verses listed below I have a very strong feeling not everything is paid. Yes, I do understand what 'paid in full means' but imo casting people into LoF or forbid them to enter the city (in their present sinning state) to me means God doesn't find every ok. It looks like a punishment, a required payment. Right now I'm seeing some conflicting verses.

Revelation 21 [ACV]
8 But for the cowards, and unbelieving, and sinful, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 22 [ACV]
15 Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every man who loves and makes a lie.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 11:55:23 PM »
Quote from: ww
But there are 575+ more laws to investigate. Luckily many of the laws are very much the same. For example there are 16 laws agains incest.

That sounds like an ambitious whitewings project.  It's too ambitious for me, though.  I like things simple and Jesus has made it simple.  :happygrin:


28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. [Mark 12]

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 12:21:34 AM »
Quote from: ww
But there are 575+ more laws to investigate. Luckily many of the laws are very much the same. For example there are 16 laws agains incest.

That sounds like an ambitious whitewings project.  It's too ambitious for me, though.  I like things simple and Jesus has made it simple.  :happygrin:
Wouldn't you like to know for example if Sabath rest is still required and eating pork forbidden?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 12:57:02 AM »
Quote from: ww
But there are 575+ more laws to investigate. Luckily many of the laws are very much the same. For example there are 16 laws agains incest.

That sounds like an ambitious whitewings project.  It's too ambitious for me, though.  I like things simple and Jesus has made it simple.  :happygrin:
Wouldn't you like to know for example if Sabath rest is still required and eating pork forbidden?
I'm not concerned, but I'm sure you will come up with something interesting.  As far as the Sabbath is concerned, I feel that we have entered into God's Sabbath rest through Jesus, so every day is the Sabbath.  [For the mature 8th day man, there is only one day, the Sabbath.]

As far as pork, etc, the vision of Peter shows that God has clensed all things for us, thus all things are pure to the pure. [Titus 1:15]

10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
--Acts10

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 01:50:55 AM »
anaireo <337>
http://classic.net.bible.org/search.php ... _index:337

Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This should probably say he kills the first covenant
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I found this interesting as a sidenote the same word for the law and prophets hangs is of Jesus hanging on a tree (this is every instance of 2910)
[Mat 22:40 KJV] - On these two commandments hang[2910] all the law and the prophets.
[Mat 18:6 KJV] - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged[2910] about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
[Luk 23:39 KJV] - And one of the malefactors which were hanged[2910] railed on him, saying , If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
[Act 5:30 KJV] - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged[2910] on a tree.
[Act 10:39 KJV] - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged[2910] on a tree:
[Act 28:4 KJV] - And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang[2910] on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live .
[Gal 3:13 KJV] - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written , Cursed [is] every one that hangeth[2910] on a tree:

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 10:05:57 AM »
Quote from: ww
But there are 575+ more laws to investigate. Luckily many of the laws are very much the same. For example there are 16 laws agains incest.

That sounds like an ambitious whitewings project.  It's too ambitious for me, though.  I like things simple and Jesus has made it simple.  :happygrin:
Wouldn't you like to know for example if Sabath rest is still required and eating pork forbidden?
I'm not concerned, but I'm sure you will come up with something interesting.  As far as the Sabbath is concerned, I feel that we have entered into God's Sabbath rest through Jesus, so every day is the Sabbath.  [For the mature 8th day man, there is only one day, the Sabbath.]
Could be true. I have my thought about it but that's not important. We all know OT Sabbath is on saturday. Unless there is a verse that changes that day it's still saturday.  IIRC Paul taught an early church father. They founded a school together and Paul left to preach the Gospel elsewhere. Early church/schools kept saturday Sabbath.

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As far as pork, etc, the vision of Peter shows that God has clensed all things for us, thus all things are pure to the pure. [Titus 1:15]
Good verses.
Makes me wonder what the following verses actually mean. For me it means only fellow Christians (the body of Christ) may judge you on things like feasts, eating, drinking and Sabbath days. (verse 16-17)
Those laws are done away with for Christians (verse 20-23)

DarbyCol 2
16 Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
.....
20 If ye have died with Christ from the elements of the world, why as if alive in the world do ye subject yourselves to ordinances?
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch,
22 (things which are all for destruction in the using of them :) according to the injunctions and teachings of men,
23 (which have indeed an appearance of wisdom in voluntary worship, and humility, and harsh treatment of the body, not in a certain honour,) to the satisfaction of the flesh.

But what is there to judge for fellow Christians if those things are no more? It sounds a bit like "the church" you attend to sets the rules.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 12:08:16 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 12:01:59 PM »
I think Paul, as apostle to the Gentiles, was very concerned lest Jewish customs and laws caused the newly converted to stumble.  He also felt these things were less important than conversion to the Lord.

IIRC, Paul and Peter had some disputes about these matters.  But, Peter came to realize that these new converts were not converting to Judaism, but something new--where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

That said, I agree with you that we can learn a lot about our God from the OT, and maybe that is what is important to us about these things.  But, why would I go back to one day set aside for the Lord when every day is now set aside for him in my life?  Isn't that what it means to be a living sacrifice?  But, he shows each of us what is required.  Unlike the majority of the Israelites, this is a personal relationship for us, as well as a group relationship.


 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

--Rom 14

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 12:34:09 PM »
I think Paul, as apostle to the Gentiles, was very concerned lest Jewish customs and laws caused the newly converted to stumble.  He also felt these things were less important than conversion to the Lord.
Sounds like a trade-of unworthy of an Apostle... :dontknow:

Quote
IIRC, Paul and Peter had some disputes about these matters.  But, Peter came to realize that these new converts were not converting to Judaism, but something new--where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
Sure Christianity is Judadism with excess rules stripped off.
That was done by by reducing the number of laws greatly.

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That said, I agree with you that we can learn a lot about our God from the OT, and maybe that is what is important to us about these things.  But, why would I go back to one day set aside for the Lord when every day is now set aside for him in my life?
I never made it a secret I find certain laws quite odd. I'm let's call it very sexually liberated :mblush:
I'm fully aware those views are contrary to the Bible. Should I debate God about it?
Same for you. Should you debate God about Sabbath or just obey?
If you follow Sabbath rules every day then obviously you do so on Saturday and all is fine.
Of course assuming there are any rules. Maybe there is no Sabbath day at all. Maybe it's moved to wednesday evening. Maybe teh only requirement is to say 2 prayers. Maybe it has become even more strickt that the Levite fantasies. Maybe... maybe... maybe.
This thread is to answer those questions by finding relevant verses. Then everybody can decide for her/himself how to apply that new knowledge.

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Isn't that what it means to be a living sacrifice?  But, he shows each of us what is required.  Unlike the majority of the Israelites, this is a personal relationship for us, as well as a group relationship
Could be true. Show me the verses. If you can you are on-topic because those verses prove certain laws are done away.

Plus it's not only about what's done away. Also what's added. Maybe 600 Levite laws are replaced by 900 Melchizedek laws....
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
If we know what Melchizedek priests must do then we basicly can lock this thead because it simply means everything not found in Melchizedek laws is done away.


Quote
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
What does that mean? Does ones diet change as s/he progresses in the relationship to God?
For example a weak believer may eat pork and a saint not?

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4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Sounds good. No judging, no nasty looks, no backstabbing.
But imo God showing grace on matters doesn't mean it's His law.
For example Jesus showed grace toward Mary by letting her go instead of ordering her to be stoned for being an harlot.
But He didn't say all is fine meet some more men and come back to Me and I show more grace. Likely Jesus would have showed more grace but still He didn't say she did a good thing.
So grace regarding eating and drinking is not the same as saying it doesn't matter. Grace is only applied/needed for wrongs, not for rights.
So it's for each individual to decide if one want to avoid grace or not.

ACVRom 6
1 What will we say then? We continue in sin so that grace may abound?
2 May it not happen! How will we who died to sin, still live in it?


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6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

"The day" could mean Sabbath day????
But does it also mean no day at all is fine?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 12:44:02 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 12:44:46 PM »
Quote from: RHM
Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This should probably say he kills the first covenant

Exactly.


13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 16For where a testament [*that is, a will] is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

--Heb 9


So Paul is saying here that the Old Testament [covenant] is actually a will which doesn't go into effect until the testator [God, himself] dies!

« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 01:32:07 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 01:03:58 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]



So--it doesn't matter how many rituals you perform, rules you follow, things you eat or don't eat, temples you build, and so forth--if you cannot follow these two royal laws [the laws of the royal priesthood].

Remember he called the Pharisees, who religiously followed all the laws of Moses, tombs filled with dead man's bones.

Remember also, that the Melchizedek priesthood predates the Levite priesthood.

18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.   [Gen 14]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 01:08:32 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 01:42:17 PM »
Quote from: ww
Same for you. Should you debate God about Sabbath or just obey?

You know, I have debated him about it.  Is this really what you want me to do?  Sunday was always holy to me, but now must I change this to Saturday?

He always brings me back to the same place.  I have entered into his Sabbath which is Christ.


This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it!

--Psa 118:24


27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.  [Mark 2:27]



« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 03:32:28 PM by Molly »