Author Topic: Jeff's rant  (Read 2405 times)

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Offline thinktank

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 10:50:43 PM »


I think there are many aspects of Gods character, love is one aspect. In the old testament God is very power oriented and concerned with riches, authority, lands, titles, hes busy kicking ass and taking names. But in the new testament he reveals a more humble side, through Christ, but yet also an extremely demanding Christ, then through Paul he reveals Gods grace and mercyful ways by extending to the gentiles and allowing them to live a more casual Christian experience.


Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 11:01:15 PM »
I'll admit I've never read that expressed like that before
nor did anything like that ever occur to me.
Interesting perspective. :sigh:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Molly

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 11:07:49 PM »


I think there are many aspects of Gods character, love is one aspect. In the old testament God is very power oriented and concerned with riches, authority, lands, titles, hes busy kicking ass and taking names. But in the new testament he reveals a more humble side, through Christ, but yet also an extremely demanding Christ, then through Paul he revealto live a more s Gods grace and mercyful ways by extending to the gentiles and allowing them casual Christian experience.
I think this is a function of getter closer and closer to him, or us, the children of God, being encouraged to move from stranger to servant to friend.  He looks different up close.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

--Eph 2:13

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 11:11:06 PM »

I think this is a function of getter closer and closer to him, or us, the children of God, being encouraged to move from stranger to servant to friend.  He looks different up close.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

--Eph 2:13

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2012, 05:41:07 PM »
Quote from: ded
Why would people turn their back on the Good News? Do they think it's TOO good so it must not be true,...

Even we think it's too good to be true...




10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

--Col 2


"complete"

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


This says we are already made perfect in Christ, in whom we died and are resurrected.


11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

--Col 2



Everything that came before is the shadow cast through the ages by this great and glorious body of Christ, which we are now.  We in Christ are the ones that cast that shadow seen by the prophets of the Old Testament.



Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.



Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

--Col 2



1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.





Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2012, 05:59:30 PM »
My wife says I'm a very emotional person but all it takes is for me to dwell on the love and mercy of God to bring tears to my eyes. My wife is an ET'er so she admits she has had to harden her heart about the (supposed)fate of her parents, family, and friends. Shouldn't that alone tell her something?
Maybe because she was "scared into" accepting Christ (fear of Hell) that she refuses to even consider "that which she has so feared will NOT come to pass."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 06:26:03 PM by ded2daworld »
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Molly

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2012, 06:07:11 PM »
I know what you mean.  We are undone by the unmerited grace given to us through Christ Jesus.


4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

--Eph 5

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2012, 06:26:44 PM »
 :thumbsup: :dsunny:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2012, 07:05:12 PM »


I think there are many aspects of Gods character, love is one aspect. In the old testament God is very power oriented and concerned with riches, authority, lands, titles, hes busy kicking ass and taking names. But in the new testament he reveals a more humble side, through Christ, but yet also an extremely demanding Christ, then through Paul he reveals Gods grace and mercyful ways by extending to the gentiles and allowing them to live a more casual Christian experience.

Yes, it seems so, but of course, it is the same God.  In the OT, YHWH, when you plug in the very ancient pictographic meanings of the Hebrew letters, means "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail."  YHWH is none other than Jesus.  In the NT, YHWH saw things from OUR perspective, and we have such verses as "Jesus wept."  Jesus walked a mile in our moccasins, so to speak, and He gained sympathy for us - so much so, that He offers salvation to all. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2012, 07:08:10 PM »
My wife says I'm a very emotional person but all it takes is for me to dwell on the love and mercy of God to bring tears to my eyes. My wife is an ET'er so she admits she has had to harden her heart about the (supposed)fate of her parents, family, and friends. Shouldn't that alone tell her something?
Maybe because she was "scared into" accepting Christ (fear of Hell) that she refuses to even consider "that which she has so feared will NOT come to pass."

Jeff, if fear of ET causes you to harden your heart, how then are you to become like a little child, a condition critical (according to Jesus) for entering the Kingdom of Heaven???
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2012, 07:47:31 PM »
I was meaning that she psychologically can't handle the truth of what ET says. She says if everybody (she doesn't understand UR and la-la-las when I try to explain) is going to heaven no matter what then there is no reason to "be good". My reply is that "if Christ is in you, you won't want to do stuff that is contrary to the nature of God. The love of God would constrain you" but she said good for you and me but you know other people would go nuts and run riot if they thought they would go to heaven no matter what.
I said frankly they do that now anyway. People sin as much as they feel they can safely get away with without getting arrested. People might break the speed limit? They might commit adultery? People DON"T do things now not over fear of hell but fear of getting caught and/or prosecuted.
A person never says "I was going to kill that person but then I remembered... it was wrong. So I didn't.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline thinktank

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2012, 08:25:45 PM »


I think there are many aspects of Gods character, love is one aspect. In the old testament God is very power oriented and concerned with riches, authority, lands, titles, hes busy kicking ass and taking names. But in the new testament he reveals a more humble side, through Christ, but yet also an extremely demanding Christ, then through Paul he revealto live a more s Gods grace and mercyful ways by extending to the gentiles and allowing them casual Christian experience.
I think this is a function of getter closer and closer to him, or us, the children of God, being encouraged to move from stranger to servant to friend.  He looks different up close.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

--Eph 2:13

Yeah Its interesting that it seems God adjust Himself to the people as well. E.g old testament people concerned with authority, rules, kings, family legacy, power etc and God reveals Himself in this way. In the new testament the Jews Pharisses are very rule oriented and demanding and Christ comes along demanding much sacrifice and obedience to the rules. Then the gentile age comes along and becomes more gentle, as Paul gives them less rules to follow and to love the liberty enjoyed in Christ.

This thinking for me makes it easier to understand God. That God is not created in our image, but we in His. So we might only see the power oriented God of he old testament as being cruel, yet God is not made in our image and there are people who truly get/understand the power, patriarchal ways of the old testament of conquering and of legacy.



Offline jabcat

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2012, 08:53:08 PM »
" if fear of ET causes you to harden your heart, how then are you to become like a little child, a condition critical (according to Jesus) for entering the Kingdom of Heaven???"

We're made right before God [righteous, legally] by faith and trust in Jesus as Savior and His work on the cross.  IMO, becoming as a little child means being able to simply accept and believe that, when drawn by the Holy Spirit - rather than attempt to justify oneself through "mature" logical thinking/worldly reasoning, etc.  Many people - in fact, most of Christendom down through the ages - believed ET was part of God's plan.  But they still had the simple faith of a child in Him as their Savior.  :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »

Yeah Its interesting that it seems God adjust Himself to the people as well. E.g old testament people concerned with authority, rules, kings, family legacy, power etc and God reveals Himself in this way. In the new testament the Jews Pharisses are very rule oriented and demanding and Christ comes along demanding much sacrifice and obedience to the rules. Then the gentile age comes along and becomes more gentle, as Paul gives them less rules to follow and to love the liberty enjoyed in Christ.

This thinking for me makes it easier to understand God. That God is not created in our image, but we in His. So we might only see the power oriented God of he old testament as being cruel, yet God is not made in our image and there are people who truly get/understand the power, patriarchal ways of the old testament of conquering and of legacy.

I like that a lot tank.  Well done.

I like
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2012, 09:04:42 PM »
How about a little child would come to God because they are terrified of the hell the preacher described? :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2012, 09:16:30 PM »
 :Chinscratch:   

I'd bet that happens.. :eyebrow:

Then we'd get into the whole "what can God use, could their faith be "real", etc.".  That could kind of set us up as the judge, because only God knows the heart.  My ignorant guess?  In some cases He really had given them faith to believe, and in others, maybe not - it was strictly a fear response.  Gee, it can get complicated.  Good thing God knows what He's doing.     
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2012, 09:28:06 PM »
That's a nice thing about UR. As it should be, everyone's experience with God is personal. God knows their heart and the person thinks they know their own heart. We cannot possibly know anothers heart completely... and who knows what plans God has for some people before they die. 43 years of being a christian and it seems like God pokes me ervery once in a while and says, "tell me who you least expect to come to me in this life and I'll bring them to me, just to prove I AM God."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Deena

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2012, 01:24:19 PM »
I spent thanksgiving with some old friends from my evangelical ET days. We have gotten together before and it usually ends in an argument. This time I tried to smile and relax--i don't have to convince them of UR. That is God's job. I wish I could say I handled myself well, but I didn't. I got frustrated and said why is it so hard to believe that Jesus really is the Savior of the world like He says He is? The room went quiet and that was the end of the conversation. I am like a bull in a china shop. :doh:

Offline lomarah

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2012, 01:43:34 PM »
A bull in a china shop  :laugh: totally been there Deena!!! It can be extremely difficult, especially when others are basically calling you a heretic. God, being Who He is, may use our "bull" instances to one day confirm the truth to them when they are open and ready to hear it.  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2012, 05:57:32 PM »
I know the frustration Deena. Though my ET wife and I have made ET/UR undiscussable (we agree on all other doctrine) I am actually more uncomfortable around church friends than my other (don't believe yet) friends.

I know the hellfire preachers like to say the world is divided up into believers against non-believers (the filthy pagan heathen) I like to think of us all as being believers, just some are and some will be, it's all a matter of time which means nothing to the creator of time.
Every one you come in contact with is either already family or will be soon(time again)
When a daughter or son is getting married, do you treat the fiance as family or do you say, "they are not "officially" part of my family so I'm sure not going to treat them as if they are.

I guess the way some "family" thanksgivings go, that might be a good thing. :laughing7:
Why do we sometimes treat total strangers better than we do our own family?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline CHB

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 07:45:05 PM »
You know, I don't believe I have ever heard an ET'r explain just what they think hell is for.

What is the purpose of hell? If it is a punishment for sins then, is it a punishment for the sins that Jesus died for? If Jesus death paid for all sins, wasn't that payment a past, present, and future payment? What is left to go to hell for?

If to suffer in hell for all eternity/age is a payment for sins, what did Jesus die for? Which sins did he die for, if any?

Also, if suffering in hell is a payment for sins and Jesus death didn't pay for them totally, wouldn't that mean ALL would go to hell because how would we know what sins were covered and what were not? 

If all of this is true, then the debt for hell has not been paid for a single person. In order for the payment of hell to be paid for all, wouldn't Jesus have to burn in hell forever?

CHB

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 08:36:07 PM »
Exactly right CHB :iagree:
Believe it or not, to 'escape" the dilemna you've proposed ET preachers
and writers have an answer. Of course, it's not a biblical scriptural answer.
They say:
Jesus' death paid for ALL sins - of the person that "accepts" him as Lord in their life.
and some even question the ALL sins (past present future) narrowing
it down to all the sins one has asked forgiveness for.
The first time a guy told me that only sins that we asked forgiveness for were forgiven, I said:
"Well why don't you and I pray right now and ask Jesus to forgive
us of all sins, past, present, future, known and unknown, of thought word and deed,
of omission and commission?"
He refused! He said that asking for forgiveness had to be of a contrite heart.
I asked him if he didn't feel sorrow over the sins he might commit in the future.
Why do people get angry when confronted with logic/scripture?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline CHB

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 10:10:26 PM »
Yes, they completely misunderstand these verses.

(Rom. 5:8-10) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US.

Much more then, being NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.

For if, when we were enemies, we WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

CHRIST died for me while I was a sinner. I am justified by HIS blood. I am saved through HIM. I am reconciled by CHRIST death. I am saved by HIS life.

It is all about HIM. HE did it all. Christ is glorified because of what HE did for me.

CHB

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 10:21:05 PM »
In my "Rocky" voice - Absolutely :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Deena

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Re: Jeff's rant
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2012, 12:19:37 PM »
Well said CHB. I am so relieved that my salvation and redemption was accomplished by Him, for I surely would have screwed it up somehow. Trying to save myself is terrifying.