IN the world, not OF the world

[jabcat]

It has been suggested by another member that perhaps we should be discussing "spiritual kingdoms" more, and "earthly kingdoms (political stuff)" less.

There was an active thread or 2 recently where parts of the discussions were capital punishment, whether or not Christians should participate in government/politics, whether one should attempt to protect the country/your home/your family should there be an attack upon such, etc.

There has also been a recent hot thread pertaining to judgment in America.

My questions are, should we notice?  Should we care?  What, if any, actions should a believer take?  Should we just "ignore" what's going on around us, term it as "earthly/worldly", say we're not OF the world, and have nothing to do with it?  And if so, then do what exactly?

Although I personally don't vote, would refuse to serve in "aggressive" military action (though I would defend the homefront, especially MY homefront  ) I've still noticed myself having very strong feelings lately about our government; and have been convicted of it...to back off, to respect the Lord's leading of not being OF the world.  But then I'm not sure exactly what that is for a believer. 

What are your thoughts on IN but not OF?  And specifically how does that look to you, what actions and behavior should that entail?

God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

I think I know that what it means for me is to not have the anger and frustration TO THE EXTENT I've lately been having!  S/w searching for the balance, though.  (or is there a balance?  maybe it's an all-or-none somehow here, one or the other...if so, what do you think that looks like?)

[Molly]

Why are you feeling anger and frustration?

[jabcat]

Oh you Molly, you are a clever one     .  Very briefly, what I perceive to be the current direction of our government.  (Not that many have been good the past, oh, 100 years).  That's what I'm saying though, I'm sure I've personally been too engrossed, aggravated, even angry, and I think my focus has been too much on those things of the world.  So just sort of tying several related recent topics and my own thoughts and feelings into the question;  IN vs. OF the world....

[Molly]

His leading was take up your cross and follow me. [Mk 8:34]

His life in the world was hardly a bed of roses.  For one thing, people were always trying to kill him.

[jabcat]

"you are a clever one" comment....I could go ON and ON and ON in the very direction of talking about my frustration, etc. with the gov., just based on your one question.  But I'll refrain  .

[jabcat]

Yes, true.  Do you think He'd be upset about our government for instance, talk about how it needed to be different (or not) or pretty much ignore it and talk about other (spiritual) things?  That's a bit of a dilemma though.  Just because one talks about earthly things, if done so from a spiritual perspective, is that not legit at all?  Do we just "overlook" it?

See, after posting the OP, I saw your post about TARP.  I agree, those things really aggravate me lately.  Age, responsibility (assumed)?  Or just having my focus (to some degree) in the wrong place  ?

And I'm not asking just for me.  I can take this to the Lord in prayer and He'll lead.  Interested in folks chiming in though (maybe  ).

[Molly]

well, you know me.  It's hard to shut me up lol.

What do you think Jesus was doing with the Pharisees?  He was going for the government.

They were not the secular government [that was the romans] but they were the government of God's people, as well as the religious and spiritual leaders.  Everything pertaining to the Jews went through them, including the crucifixion of Christ.

Why is the government of God's people so important that Jesus spent so much time correcting and upbraiding the Pharisees who had placed themselves in leadership roles? 

Because that is the government we are meant to have on earth, should we ever decide to follow the real King and discontinue our love affair with satan.


Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[jabcat]

OK, good points to ponder.  Thanks!

[sparrow]

What I'm thinking is that this world, (this FALLEN world) with it's government and rulers, etc. is a shadow. Just like most everything else in this world is. A shadow of reality.
Shadows are dark. This world is basically reality cast in the shadows. Are you following me, so far? So we are to learn... understand... observe the structure/workings of government/ruling etc. But we are also to realize that it is the FALLEN version.

I think that we shouldn't ignore things completely, because then we are missing out on the basic structure or bones/whatever you want to call it of what will be some sort of true REALITY (minus the fallen state of it.)

I think that we should stand against suffering and non-love in this world byt shining the light on LOVE. Not so much shining the light on non-love. (Unless it is going to produce something beneficial.) But I also feel that perhaps we should listen to our hearts and go out and DO!!! not so much talk ad nauseum about the "bad stuff" but to be DO'ers!!! I think that is key.
If it is put on someone's heart to go and fight injustice in government, than perhaps the right thing to do is to find constructive ways to help bring about change. My thing right now is the elderly. I'm trying to find ways to help the elderly. That's what is in my heart right now.
Now I could shout all day long about the injustices in nursing homes, or I could go to the nursing home and hold a hand and comfort and be a friend to some lonely soul. Now if I were just shouting all day long about the neglect/what have you, perhaps I'd be missing out on actually doing a constructive thing to STOP the neglect by going out and DOING. Being there for someone and holding a hand and comforting.

On the other hand, the person shouting... if they are shouting in the correct place, then they could bring awareness. and bring about real Change. Both work in tandem. The one trying to bring awareness... and the one holding the hand. Do you know what I mean?


I think the key is.... am I being effective? Is what I am doing REALLY doing anything to stop the spread of darkness and to SPREAD LOVE or am I just adding to the cacophony?

I believe we should stop.... and listen to Him. What is He saying?
Where is your heart leading you?

Lastly... if this current world system, is leading you down a path that forces your eyes OFF of God and OFF of love... then you know SOMETHING is wrong. And you need to turn around and get off of that path. Because if you don't it could lead to fear, which as you know is horribly destructive. I've been on that path. And have had to stop and turn myself around.

Be constructive, listen to Him, follow the call of your heart, and let His love shine through you.

Well, that's just my take on it, for what it's worth..

[jabcat]

Your take on it is very nice.  Balanced.  Very much the way I see it, but have been sort of re-examining some of it.  And God has nudged that I have been over the line a bit lately in my personal feelings and behavior (probably shouldn't be yelling at the TV, huh?  ).

OK, good, more to think about.  Thanks, Sparrow. 


Also, just heard a Christian radio station advertise themselves as "KJSL, your God and Country station".  They are talking about governmental and abortion issues from a "spiritual/Christian" perspective....

[WhiteWings]

It has been suggested by another member that perhaps we should be discussing "spiritual kingdoms" more, and "earthly kingdoms (political stuff)" less.

Surely there is a political and spiritual part; but should we see the political part as something not belonging on a religious forum?
Some believe only on spiritually things. Some also believe real touchable/visible things will happen in this world.
And that means politics. IMO the political part certainly has its place.
Maybe the threads should just be better seperated. Closer moderation if someone steps in with the sole reason sidetracking the thread. If a topic starter wants to talk about A have the courtesy to either not get involved or speak about A and not start enforcing B.
Don't get me wrong I'm not promoting that people have to analyze each word they post to not break the rules.
This forum has rules/etiquette on foul language. I think the etiqutte should just be 'expanded' a bit.
Imagine that as a school situation... A teacher has to guide pupils to knowledge. Not kicking them to knowledge and making fun of them if they get it wrong. That will slow down the whole teaching process.
Besides of that I find the "Listen to me because I do know" attitude is very arrogant.

Personally I think that is what it's really about Jabcat.

PS did I sidetrack this thread? 

[jabcat]

Nah, it's OK WW.       In fact, I've thought a few times that in a political thread for instance, I just wish someone would stay out of it and post in another thread if they don't like it, instead of come into it and just start trashing what a few others may be talking about, enjoying it, and getting along well enough...until they showed up with their usual "this is baloney" stuff.    Oh well, we each have our opinion, huh?

I imagine Martin and a few of the other mods will see your suggestions...thanks!

[jabcat]

ps, leaving here in a minute...will get back with you on TCB 

[Molly]

We are in this world as light.

What are the ways in which we are light?

All the obvious Christian endeavors come to mind such as charity, the way we treat others, being a servant,  and so forth in a personal sense.  We are God's representatives on earth.

But, also this spills over into a national life, as well--from community to country--I believe we are to be shining light on everything we see, so that what is wrong, what is lacking in integrity, what is hidden, is revealed to everyone.  Because only then can it be made right.

If Jesus had not done that last piece, they never would have killed him.


Luke 12:2
For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

[Molly]

The world is, even today, very much in darkness.  Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.  He deceives with darkness and lies.  He deceives the world about everything.  Jesus tells us lying is satan's language.


...called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ..

 --Rev 12:9


We are set apart by God as not a part of this dark world--placed in the world but set apart from its darkness.



4 God saw that the light was good. He separated the light from the darkness.

--Gen 1



The only light anywhere to be seen, then,  is-- us.  And, if the light is dark, how great is that darkness!



Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.



It is our light, the light of Christ, which convicts others to truth, and to our Father who is worshipped in truth.


Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Molly]

Many of the religions from the east have at their core a withdrawal from the world.  I was taught this arose out of a feeling of helplessness to affect the real world, which is referred to as something illusory.  Some of these religions, ironically, support a caste system, where you are a victim of a predeterminisic fate and stuck where you are born.  Others place the blame squarely on your own shoulders for your own actions, telling you that karma will boomerang on you for your sins and it will be the result of your own actions.

Christianity is different.  Although it certainly can be the quiet religion of the mystic, it is also placed very squarely in the world where we are to behave in a certain way as followers of Christ.  Jesus tells us we will have trouble but promises us he has already overcome the world.  Could this mean that even the worst of us knows truth when we hear it because he has placed that much light in every man?

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

--John 1



Who is 'his own' that he came to? I've heard it said this refers to the Jews.   But, if his light is in every man, 'his own' is all of us.

"his own"

G2398
ἴδιος
idios
id'-ee-os
Of uncertain affinity; pertaining to self, that is, one's own; by implication private or separate: - X his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home, (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private (-ly), proper, severally, their (own).

'pertaining to self'--Could we say, he came to himself?  But, the darkness did not comprehend the light--is light something to be understood?


5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--John 1

We cannot see in the dark, but this darkness cannot even understand light.  This is the lost part of God.

When did he lose a part of himself?


Where are you?

--Gen 3


Then it is only through a reconnection with him that we can be made perfect--become complete.

Even though we are functioning in the world, he is always with us, and we, as Christians, are set apart and acting through him.



John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[jabcat]

Good post Molly.   You're making a lot of sense to me on this.   

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, there is only one verse that has always summed this up for me.  It is the reality the bible tells us of the physical world.

Ro 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

[Molly]

Wow that's amazing Paul.  Look at the words.



"if"
G1487
εἰ
ei
i
A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.: - forasmuch as, if, that, ([al-]) though, whether. Often used in connection or composition with other particles, especially as in G1489, G1490, G1499, G1508, G1509, G1512, G1513, G1536, and G1537. See also G1437.


"it be possible"

G1415
δυνατός
dunatos
doo-nat-os'
From G1410; powerful or capable (literally or figuratively); neuter possible: - able, could, (that is) mighty (man), possible, power, strong.


"as much as lieth in you"

G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek  ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

G5216
ὑμῶν
humōn
hoo-mone'
Genitive case of G5210; of (from or concerning) you: - ye, you, your (own, -selves).


"live peaceably"

G1514
εἰρηνεύω
eirēneuō
i-rane-yoo'-o
From G1515; to be (act) peaceful: - be at (have, live in) peace, live peaceably.


[with all men]

Molly's translation:

For as much as you have the power of a mighty man within yourself, live peaceably amidst all men.  [or, be at peace with all men.]


It takes power to live peaceably.   The peaceful ones are the most powerful.