Author Topic: Jew or not to Jew  (Read 674 times)

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Offline thinktank

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Jew or not to Jew
« on: September 11, 2012, 12:21:47 AM »
Not all who call themselves "Israel" are Israel, Paul said.

Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.




How far do we take this?

For the same Paul,said, God forbid to casting his people out.

Also look at Jesus and some of the Jews. These {some few} Ad 30 Jews crucified Christ, yet  some repented afterward.

A high priest prophecied the coming of Christ, yet later smites Paul.

So my question is, could it be that Paul in the above scripture of not all are Israelis talking only of certain Jews and not of the Jewish race. E.g what if a "pure " blood Jew, even those who persecuted Jesus are saved because of the election. But other Jews are not because they are unpure Jews. Rev says that certain Jews are imposters and are the synagogue of Satan.

Now my support for a evil behaving pure Jew being saved is. that the word prophecied that those who pierced him will see him at His glorious coming and will mourn for him.

Now literally these guys are dead, but however

1. Maybe their still alive roaming the earth as unclean spirits
2. Maybe they meet Christ when Jesus raises the dead. both the just and unjust

Now if these unjust Pure blood Jews are raised form the dead, what if Christ being God decides to save them.? Since Paul said, All Israel shall be saved. But the unpure Jew who refuses to accept Jesus, but accepts Satan, is not saved, both body and soul cast into hell.

This means there is a difference between a a pure Jew and an impure Jew, regardless of conduct or belief. Unless! that a pure Jew must obey the Torah, while an inpure Jew are those who do not study Torah.

Any thoughts, on e.g what makes a Jew pure

I know that Christs blood cleansas all things and all tribes and Christ accepts all into his kingdom, including an inpure Jew only if they call upon His name.

But the scriptures seem to affirm, promise, state, declare that those who are TRUE Jew/Israel are saved regardless.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Jew or not to Jew
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »
In my limited knowledge on the matter, I believe there are literal/national Jews (God knows who and where they are, and how to bring them in) and spiritual Jews.

I believe spiritual Jews are gentiles who call on and believe in Him as Savior, circumcised of the heart not the flesh.  I don't believe they "replace" the natural Jew, but are grafted into the tree.

I believe any natural Jew can become a spiritual Jew through having their veil lifted and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior (Saul/Paul).  I just believe most are and will remain blinded until it's "their time" (Paul said even to this day a veil remains).  I probably only scratched the surface on your actual question, but that's my  :2c:, and most of what I've got on it :). 

Oh, P.S. -  even Abraham was justified by faith, not the Law.  I believe He "saw" the Messiah. 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jew or not to Jew
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 07:07:34 AM »
So my question is, could it be that Paul in the above scripture of not all are Israelis talking only of certain Jews and not of the Jewish race. E.g what if a "pure " blood Jew, even those who persecuted Jesus are saved because of the election.
Paul didn't explain what his def. of Jew was, so I think it's safe to assume he means the def. as thaught by the Rabbis.
I think the def. simply was that the person must do things as the Jews understood the law given by God. So for example know Scripture, eat the right food, dress code, obviously only believe in YHWH.

So imo even Pilate could have become a Jew. In the OT Jewish males marry ethiopian women.


So Jews are people who do Jewish things.
Quote from: Jabcat
circumcised of the heart not the flesh
But still circumcised liek a Jew.
OT customs that made a person a Jew all were patterns pointing to Jesus.
So both types of circumcision are the same pattern.
"Christianity" didn't really rewrite "Jewishness" it just used different ways to express the same pattern.
The most known one is calling Jesus a Lamb which obviously points to animal sacrifices.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jew or not to Jew
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 08:07:19 AM »
Jesus said to certain Jews, "You are of  your father the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning". In anther place He told them that they were as Cain, guilty of the blood of "all the prophets from righteous Able to Zechariah whom you slew between the porch and the alter"..... He also said, "Do not think to have Abraham as your father, I can of the stones raise up children to Abraham."

Joh 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

It is important to understand that the Jews are identified IN ABRAHAM, the father of faith. Jesus makes it CLEAR that the children of Abraham, the true Jews, were PEOPLE OF FAITH.

The natural tree we are grafted into is is ROOTED IN ABRAHAM, and runs through DAVID(Ro 1:3), the branches are children of faith, men and women after God's own heart, Jews and Gentiles.

"The axe is laid to the root of the trees"...."the natural branches were cut -off because of unbelief, but they can be grafted back in again" and will, because "all Israel will be saved"....when? in the ages to come perhaps....."Do not boast yourselves over the branches that were cut off"... Why? Because you will be cut off for your arrogance, not seeing that God loves them for the sake of the forefathers and is determined to redeem them all again and we are supposed to be the instrument of that,

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
(Rom 11:11-12)

They will be made full, but

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Rom 10:3-4)

Those who approached the law to establish their own righteousness are the branches that hav been cut-off

"All day long I hold forth my hands to a stubborn and a rebellious people".

Paul, in Galatians likens these to Hagar and Ishmael, not Sarah and Israel, slaves not sons. But one only need to come under grace, believe and bow to the love of God in Christ Jesus in order to move from slave to son.

Christians, who approach the gospel "to establish their own righteousness" make it into law and letter  FARE NO BETTER THAN THE JEWS WHO WERE CUT OFF, for God is no respecter of persons. They walk as slaves not sons.

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."[g]
(Rom 10:12-13)

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:26-29)


The tree is a tree of faith, out of Abraham, the seed being one seed is Christ. All those who are of the faith of Abraham are the true Jews, those natural Jews who were people of faith(Backwards from Christ) are in that tree. Those Gentiles who hav become children of Abraham(forward from Christ) in the SEED who is Christ are grafted into it. That tree is the tree of the CHILDREN OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM. Any branch, having been cut ofF for unbelief, may repent and be grafted back in, and eventually the tree will encompass all of creation.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:26-29)

The in gathering that began with Abraham is being completed through Christ and His first act in it was to "break down the dividing wall".

the mystery...... which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body(with the Jews), and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
(Eph 3:5-6)

So in the end, after Christ yields all things to the Father, all rule power and authority will be dissolved and not only will their be no Jew or Gentile but all will be one in God and God will be all in all. The first step in that glorious mystery was gathering Jew and Gentile into one tree, a tree of faith.

 :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:


 
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jew or not to Jew
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 09:52:04 AM »
Jesus said to certain Jews, "You are of  your father the devil, who was a murderer from the beginning". In anther place He told them that they were as Cain, guilty of the blood of "all the prophets from righteous Able to Zechariah whom you slew between the porch and the alter"..... He also said, "Do not think to have Abraham as your father, I can of the stones raise up children to Abraham."

Joh 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

It is important to understand that the Jews are identified IN ABRAHAM, the father of faith. Jesus makes it CLEAR that the children of Abraham, the true Jews, were PEOPLE OF FAITH.

The natural tree we are grafted into is is ROOTED IN ABRAHAM, and runs through DAVID(Ro 1:3), the branches are children of faith, men and women after God's own heart, Jews and Gentiles.

"The axe is laid to the root of the trees"...."the natural branches were cut -off because of unbelief, but they can be grafted back in again" and will, because "all Israel will be saved"....when? in the ages to come perhaps....."Do not boast yourselves over the branches that were cut off"... Why? Because you will be cut off for your arrogance, not seeing that God loves them for the sake of the forefathers and is determined to redeem them all again and we are supposed to be the instrument of that,
(Rom 11:16) And if the first fruit is holy, the branch is also. And if the root is holy, the branches are also.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Jew or not to Jew
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 06:06:03 PM »
Not all who call themselves "Israel" are Israel, Paul said.

Romans 9:6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It seems to me that Paul is making an analogy between the descendants of Abram/Abraham, only one of which was the child of Promise, and the descendants of Jacob/Israel, not all of which, apparently, were the people of God.  It is not a matter of the flesh, but of God's choosing, and I have looked into this quite a bit - I am writing a book on the Bride of Christ, and one whole chapter is devoted to the subject of choosing, family lines, and who was selected. 

In the case of Abraham, we know that only Isaac was the child of Promise, that Ishmael was rejected even though he had God's favor, the children Abraham had with Keturah were rejected, and finally Abraham's children with his concubines were all rejected.  In like manner, if we recall the Book of Revelation, it looks like the whole tribe of Dan is rejected, and who knows what other portion of Israel is also rejected?  It will be made clear to us soon enough.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.