Author Topic: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline  (Read 1390 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« on: December 28, 2009, 11:15:03 AM »
KJV Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
LXE Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived two hundred and thirty years, and begot a son after his own form, and after his own image, and he called his name Seth.

KJV Genesis 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
LXE Genesis 5:6 Now Seth lived two hundred and five years, and begot Enos.
KJV Genesis 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
LXE Genesis 5:9 And Enos lived an hundred and ninety years, and begot Cainan.
KJV Genesis 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
LXE Genesis 5:12 And Cainan lived an hundred and seventy years, and he begot Maleleel.
KJV Genesis 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
LXE Genesis 5:15 And Maleleel lived an hundred and sixty and five years, and he begot Jared.
Agreement on birth of Enoch
KJV Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
LXE Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived an hundred and sixty and five years, and begat Mathusala.
KJV Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
LXE Genesis 5:25 And Mathusala lived an hundred and sixty and seven years, and begot Lamech.
KJV Genesis 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
LXE Genesis 5:30 And Lamech lived after his begetting Noe, five hundred and sixty and five years, and begot sons and daughters.
KJV Genesis 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
LXE Genesis 11:12 And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan.
KJV Genesis 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
LXE Genesis 11:12 And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan.
Etc. etc.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 12:11:33 PM »
Makes me wonder if there's a Dead Sea Scrolls version of Genesis from perhaps 250BC that would side with either the LXX or the Masoretic text.  Additionally, whether any modern translations are translations of the Greek in both Old and New Testament, if a Dead Sea Scrolls version of Genesis is either incomplete or says something entirely different that's not really helpful.  Genesis, because of the particular events it covers and the symbology we're to understand from it because of statements in the Psalms, New Testament, and elsewhere seems to stand alone as a book of primary importance that we have the earliest possible copies of, if the discrepancies are this profound between ancient versions.  Some people, presumably from their KJV, add up the years from Adam to Abraham and conclude 1948yrs and make a big deal on that being the year Israel was re-established since the Second Man walked the earth, who became Last Adam after His resurrection.  Makes me wonder how all of this tinkers with the math on that and if it winds up being another historically "interesting" number that's brought forth.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 01:01:36 PM »
In another thread it was made clear that the Masoretic has many proven errors. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3270.0

Of course that doesn't mean LXX can't be wrong elsewhere. If the LXX is correct with all the mentioned numbers some people will be really upset.... :winkgrin:


LXE Genesis 5:25 And Mathusala lived an hundred and sixty and seven years, and begot Lamech.  => 167
LXE Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred and eighty and eight years, and begot a son. (Noe/Noah)  => 188
LXE Genesis 7:6 And Noe was six hundred years old when the flood of water was upon the earth. => 600

The flood started 167+188+600=955 years after the birth of Mathusala.

LXE Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Mathusala which he lived, were nine hundred and sixty and nine years, and he died. =>969

That means Mathusala lived 969-955=14 years after the flood started.
That would mean a local flood.
But....
Methuselah comes from muth, a root that means "death";(1) and from shalach, which means to bring, or to send forth. The name Methuselah means, "his death shall bring".
If the name doesn't point to the flood, what does it point to?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 01:16:31 PM »
Same calculation for KJV

KJV Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech: -> 187
KJV Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: -> 182
KJV Genesis 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. -> 600

187+182+600=969 years after the birth of Mathusala.
KJV Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. ->969
That means Methuselah died in the year of the flood.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Jerm

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 03:17:21 AM »
Martin, if your looking for a modern translation that uses the LXX for the OT and the Greek text for the NT, I would go with a Eastern Orthodox Bible.  I have one and it uses the LXX for the OT and the NKJ for the NT.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 08:22:34 AM »
That means Methuselah died in the year of the flood.

"Cherish youth, but trust old age."

Rest in Peace.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 11:53:58 AM »
Are there references, complete with age, to the above verses in the OT/NT ?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 10:02:51 PM »
I know of no passage that specifically speaks of an exact age within this life that is considered; youthful or elderly.
Only that our days are numbered in an abstract way.

"Wisdom is with aged men, and with length of days, understanding."

Death is no respecter of persons; sooner or later it comes to the rich and poor, famous and infamous, learned and
ignorant, young and old.

"I will lie down in peace and sleep, for though I am alone, Oh Lord, you will keep me safe; and awaken me in the morning."

Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

peacemaker

Offline Doc

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 11:01:43 PM »
That's a pretty big discrepancy between the two. I had heard that the LXX contains error as well, though.
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Offline Pierac

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Re: Hebrew Masoretic vs Greek Septuagint timeline
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 05:06:14 AM »
Occasions where The Septuagint Is Quoted in the New Testament against the sense of the Hebrew text

Enoch was not, because God translated him
Gen 5.24 quoted in Heb 11.5

To thy seed
Gn 12.7 quoted in Ga 3.16

Jacob ... worshipped, leaning on the top of his staff
Gen 47.31 quoted in Heb 11.21

Wouldest thou kill me, as thou killest the Egyptian yesterday?
Ex 2.14 quoted in Ac 7.27-28

My name might be published abroad in all the earth
Ex 9.16 quoted in Ro 9.17

A royal priesthood
Ex 19.6 quoted in 1 Pe 2.9

The Lord knoweth them that are his
Nu 16.5 quoted in 2 Tm 2.19

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God
Dt 6.13 quoted in Mt 4.10 and Lk 4.8

Put away the wicked man from among yourselves
Dt 17.7 quoted in 1 Cor 5.13

Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
Dt 21.23 quoted in Ga 3.13

Cursed is everyone who continueth not
Dt 27.26 quoted in Ga 3.10

Let all the angels of God worship him
Dt 32.43 quoted in He 1.6

Why did the Gentiles rage?
Ps 2.1-2 quoted in Ac 4.25-26

Their throat is an open sepulchre
Ps 5.9 quoted in Ro 3.13

Out of the mouth of babes
Ps 8.2 quoted in Mt 21.16

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?
Ps 8.4-6 quoted in He 2.6-8

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness
Ps 10.7 quoted in Ro 3.14

They are together become unprofitable
Ps 14.1-3 quoted in Ro 3.10-12

Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades
Ps 16.8-11 quoted in Ac 2.25-28

Their sound went out into all the earth
Ps 19.4 quoted in Ro 10.18

I will declare thy name unto my brethren
Ps 22.22 quoted in He 2.12

Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not
Ps 40.6-8 quoted in He 10.5-6

That thou mightest be justified in thy words
Ps 51.4 quoted in Ro 3.4

They are together become unprofitable
Ps 53.1-3 quoted in Ro 3.10-12

Let their table be made a snare
Ps 69.22-23 quoted in Ro 11.9-10

He gave them bread out of heaven to eat
Ps 78.24 quoted in Jn 6.31

Today, if ye shall hear his voice
Ps 95.7-8 quoted in He 3.15 and He 4.7

Today, if ye shall hear his voice
Ps 95.7-11 quoted in He 3.7-11

And they all shall wax old as doth a garment
Ps 102.25-27 quoted in He 1.10-12

I believed, and therefore did I speak
Ps 116.10 quoted in 2 Cor 4.13

The Lord is my helper
Ps 118.6 quoted in He 13.6

The poison of asps in under their lips
Ps 140.3 quoted in Ro 3.13

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth
Pr 3.11-12 quoted in He 12.5-6

God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble
Pr  3.34 quoted in James 4.6 and 1 Pe 5.5

And if the righteous is scarcely saved, 
where shall the ungodly and sinner appear
Pr 11.31 quoted in 1 Pe 4.18

If thine enemy hunger, feed him
Pr 25.21-22 quoted in Ro 12.20

Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, 
we should have been as Sodom
Is 1.9 quoted in Ro 9.29

By hearing ye shall hear, and in no wise understand
Is 6.9-10 quoted in Mt 13.14-15 and Mk 4.12

By hearing ye shall hear, and in no wise understand
Is 6.9-10 quoted in Ac 28.26-27

Lest they should see with their eyes ... and I should heal them
Is 6.9-10 quoted in John 12.40

Behold, the virgin shall be with child
Is 7.14 quoted in Mt. 1.23

I will put my trust in him
Is 8.17 quoted in He 2.13

It is the remnant that shall be saved
Is 10.22-23 quoted in Ro 9.27-28

On him shall the Gentiles hope
Is 11.10 quoted in Ro 15.12

When I shall take away their sins
Is 27.9 quoted in Ro 11.27

He that believeth on him shall not be put to shame
Is 28.16 quoted in Ro 9.33, 10.11 and 1 Pe 2.6

Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men
Is 29.13 quoted in Mt 15.8-9 and Mk 7.6-7

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
Is 29.14 quoted in 1 Cor 1.19

All flesh shall see the salvation of God
Is 40.3-5 quoted in Lk 3.4-6

The voice of one crying in the wilderness
Is 40.3 quoted in Mt 3.3, Mk 1.3 and Jn 1.23

All flesh is as grass
Is 40.6-8 quoted in 1 Pt 1.24-25

Who hath known the mind of the Lord? 
Is 40.13 quoted in Ro 11.34 and 1 Cor 2.16

And in his name shall the Gentiles hope
Is 42.4 quoted in Mt 12.21

A people for God's own possession
Is 43.21 quoted in 1 Pe 2.9

To me every knee shall bow
Is 45.23 quoted in Ro 14.11

At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee
Is 49.8 quoted in 2 Cor 6.2

For the name of God is blasphemed 
among the Gentiles because of you
Is 52.5 quoted in Ro 2.24

They shall see, to whom no tidings of him came
Is 52.15 quoted in Ro 15.21

Who has believed our report?
Is 53.1 quoted in Jn 12.38 and Ro 10.16

He was led as a sheep to the slaughter
Is 53.7-8 quoted in Ac 8.32-33

Neither was guile found in his mouth
Is 53.9 quoted in 1 Pt 2.22

Rejoice thou barren that bearest not
Is 54.1 quoted in Ga 4.27

The holy and sure blessings of David
Is 55.3 quoted in Ac 13.34

To set at liberty them that are bruised
Is 58.6 in Luke 4.18

He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Is 59.20-21 quoted in Ro 11.26-27

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me
Is 61.1-2 quoted in Lk 4.18-19

I was found of them that sought me not
Is 65.1 quoted in Ro 10.20

A disobedient and gainsaying people
Is 65.2 quoted in Ro 10.21

Behold, the days come
Jer 31.31-34 quoted in He 8.8-12

I will put my laws on their heart
Jer 31.33-34 quoted in He 10.16-17

I will call that my people, which was not my people
Ho 2.23 quoted in Ro 9.25

I desire mercy, and not sacrifice
Ho 6.6 quoted in Mt 9.13 and 12.7

O death, where is thy sting?
Ho 13.14 quoted in 1 Cor 15.55

I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh
Jl 2.28-32 quoted in Ac 2.17-21

Ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch
Am 5.25-27 quoted in Ac 7.42-43

I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen
Am 9.11-12 quoted in Ac 15.16-17

For I work a work in your days,
which ye shall in no wise believe
Hab 1.5 quoted in Ac 13.41

But my righteous one shall live by faith
Hab 2.3-4 quoted in He 10.37-38

Occasions where a Masoretic Reading Is Quoted in the New Testament against the sense of the Septuagint
 

He that taketh the wise in their craftiness
Job 5.13 quoted in 1 Cor 3.19

Who hath first given to him
Job 41.11 quoted in Ro 11.35

A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence
Is 8.14 quoted in Ro 9.33 and 1 Pe 2.8

Out of Egypt did I call my son
Ho 11.1 quoted in Mt 2.15

They shall look on him whom they pierced
Zch 12.10 quoted in Jn 19.37

Behold, I send my messenger before thy face
Mal 3.1 quoted in Mt 11.10, Mk 1.2, and Lk 7.


See a pattern?

Paul