Health warning

[fire walker]

Am sorry Card and Taffy to hear about this situation you are dealing with. I join the others who ask prayers for you.

Now that this subject of phramacuticals has been brought up, I would like to mention that there have been a number of drugs over the last 15 to 20 years that have been banned after severe side effects showed up, these drugs were doing more harm than good in many cases, they were promoted as being break through medicine (they always like to say that) and even advertised on Radio and TV commercials, so yes, one needs to be very very careful and watchful with these drugs, even some of the very best trained doctors don't know everything about some of these drugs that there is to know about weather the negative side affects are going to out wiegh the positive benifits or even what side effects there might be with some newer drugs until the drug has been in use for awhile, and sadly sometimes that is after much damage has occured and it is too late.
 
It is also known that some of these medications have been benificial for many and harmful for a few, or visa versa, helpful for a few and harmful for many depending on ones individual genitics and DNA and since Doctors though well trained  can't possibly know ahead to much extent how what drug is going to affect who
in every individual case that is under their care. Big Pharma is a corporate business that is bottom line profit driven and the pros and cons of this business in junction with health care can be to say the least a "catch 22"

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Doc]

Pharmakeia strikes again. No wonder it's one of the words translated "witchcraft" and "sorcery" in the scripture. Sheesh.

I'm glad you guys are talking about this, because more people need to wake up to this stuff.
The pharmaceutical industry is giving us poison and passing it off as cure. And they know it. 

[Redlettervoice]

Tony, I just skimmed the first page of that link and I will be checking it out in more detail as I feel up to it. Something has always nagged at me, and that is that meat wasn't given to eat until AFTER the flood (the death of all flesh). Blessings....

Hey Cardinal, if we take that spiritual, maybe it means "strong
meat" belongs to them of a full age.  I would hope one would
be a full age after the flood in their lives. ha One place in Isa.
it does say "for this is as the waters of Noah to me" and another
place in the new testament "standing in and out of the waters,."

[Redlettervoice]

I also wanted to say that I too have that "catch 22" when it comes
to medicine.  God!  I never thought I'd be taking so much of this
stuff and I can "feel" I am either getting creaky and wobbly or the
medicine is working on me. ha  I am grateful tho for the good side
of medicine.  I do see the sorcery in it, but w/o faith it is impossible
to please God. Like food, we sanctify it thru prayer.  All things are
for our sakes.  I don't want to look at the negative toooooooooo
much.  When I consider what I have been thru bodily, I KNOW
beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am a miracle.  And that God has
done it, the medicine won't even work unless HE does it. 

I had a girlfriend whose 14 year old daughter about two weeks ago
developed Guillian Barre disease after the flu shot.  Not very many
people "ever" develop such, and you can reap finacial benefits if
it happens to you. 
But, on the way to the hospital, her mother "also" saw the white
glory on all the signs on the highway, and was caught up into God
til others in the family were questioning her.  God brought the girl
thru and even tho she went to ICU and took some very expensive
MEDICINE to counteract the flu shot, they thought the worst, but
she is home after a week, and will even be returning to school in a
week instead of what the doctors have said.

So sometimes, this sickness is for the glory of God.

All things can work together for the good of those that love the Lord.

[Doc]

I also wanted to say that I too have that "catch 22" when it comes
to medicine.  God!  I never thought I'd be taking so much of this
stuff and I can "feel" I am either getting creaky and wobbly or the
medicine is working on me. ha  I am grateful tho for the good side
of medicine.  I do see the sorcery in it, but w/o faith it is impossible
to please God. Like food, we sanctify it thru prayer.  All things are
for our sakes.  I don't want to look at the negative toooooooooo
much.  When I consider what I have been thru bodily, I KNOW
beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am a miracle.  And that God has
done it, the medicine won't even work unless HE does it. 

I had a girlfriend whose 14 year old daughter about two weeks ago
developed Guillian Barre disease after the flu shot.  Not very many
people "ever" develop such, and you can reap finacial benefits if
it happens to you. 
But, on the way to the hospital, her mother "also" saw the white
glory on all the signs on the highway, and was caught up into God
til others in the family were questioning her.  God brought the girl
thru and even tho she went to ICU and took some very expensive
MEDICINE to counteract the flu shot, they thought the worst, but
she is home after a week, and will even be returning to school in a
week instead of what the doctors have said.

So sometimes, this sickness is for the glory of God.

All things can work together for the good of those that love the Lord.

You're absolutely right, RLV. There is a balance to these things. And it's certainly true that God can use anything.

[shawn]

Cardinal I'm very sorry about your health issues.  With that said, I'm not sure you should be giving out medical advice.  I don't mean to offend but for some prednisone (or the many variants of steroids) can be life saving.  I do agree that we shouldn't just hand out prednisone like candy.  It does have many side effects especially when taking it long term.  With that said, in the COPD, asthmatic, MS etc populations it saves lives and enhances quality of life.  I would take a more conservative approach with your stance.  The possible side effects and the consequences for not taking them should be discussed with each members physician.  Then a fully educated team decision can be made.  

[shawn]

Just one more note...there are many drugs that save lives.  And most would be considered "trying to do it better than mother nature". 

[Cardinal]

Cardinal I'm very sorry about your health issues.  With that said, I'm not sure you should be giving out medical advice.  I don't mean to offend but for some prednisone (or the many variants of steroids) can be life saving.  I do agree that we shouldn't just hand out prednisone like candy.  It does have many side effects especially when taking it long term.  With that said, in the COPD, asthmatic, MS etc populations it saves lives and enhances quality of life.  I would take a more conservative approach with your stance.  The possible side effects and the consequences for not taking them should be discussed with each members physician.  Then a fully educated team decision can be made.  

  You're absolutely right, I shouldn't be. Should anyone like to know what I found through 2 weeks of studying internet pages including some doctor's journals going back to a WW1 study on natural adrenal drops used on soldiers with the deadly influenza of their day, please PM or email me, and I will be happy to share my resources so you can make an informed decision like I did, that literally saved my life. Blessings....

[shawn]

I'm just curious Cardinal.  Do you believe physicians are wringing their hands waiting to give patients evil drugs that will harm them?  Do, you not believe the great majority of physicians know the side effects of prednisone?  While I know that some physicians are negligent most will gladly go over your research with you.  It's hard for the general public to sort through truth and fiction when it comes to things of a medical nature.  I can find site after site with incorrect or biased information unsupported by studies.  Is that what we are to base our life changing decisions upon?  Lets extrapolate this further and go off all our meds that have side effects that we read about on the net.

A patient has a responsibility to themself to be educated about what they take.  With that said, you should take that information to your physician for discussion before ever pulling yourself off a drug.  What if your post caused someone to stop a life saving dose of prednisone?  You do realize some individuals can't breathe without it right?  Do realize it can prevent blindness in certain disease processes?  Or are we only going to focus on the negative of a medication?

Did you know aspirin even in it's lowest dose form can cause a gastric ulcer than can kill you?  You can drink too much water and die as well.  Tylenol can cause liver failure and death (recently seen it do so), advil can cause kidney failure and gastric ulcerations, death.  I can go on and on but I think you get the picture.

[thinktank]

I'm just curious Cardinal.  Do you believe physicians are wringing their hands waiting to give patients evil drugs that will harm them?  Do, you not believe the great majority of physicians know the side effects of prednisone?  While I know that some physicians are negligent most will gladly go over your research with you.  It's hard for the general public to sort through truth and fiction when it comes to things of a medical nature.  I can find site after site with incorrect or biased information unsupported by studies.  Is that what we are to base our life changing decisions upon?  Lets extrapolate this further and go off all our meds that have side effects that we read about on the net.

A patient has a responsibility to themself to be educated about what they take.  With that said, you should take that information to your physician for discussion before ever pulling yourself off a drug.  What if your post caused someone to stop a life saving dose of prednisone?  You do realize some individuals can't breathe without it right?  Do realize it can prevent blindness in certain disease processes?  Or are we only going to focus on the negative of a medication?

Did you know aspirin even in it's lowest dose form can cause a gastric ulcer than can kill you?  You can drink too much water and die as well.  Tylenol can cause liver failure and death (recently seen it do so), advil can cause kidney failure and gastric ulcerations, death.  I can go on and on but I think you get the picture.

Hello Shaun, I'd be interested to know your opinion on the pharmaceutal industry, do you belive that there is corruption and that they use their wealth to control medicine. e.g push drugs that treat symptoms, more than say natural treatments that some studies say cure the problem?

[Beloved Servant]

A woman I knew spent the better part of the day in the emergency room 2 weeks ago.
The doctor said she just needed some rest and sent her home.
She died of a heart attack in her husband's arms 3 hours after they got home.

[Cardinal]

  @ Shawn.....Not intentionally, no. I think they are overworked, overbooked, and don't have time to do much more than listen to the pharmaceutical reps that paint a rosy picture for them, who are obviously biased towards the products they sell. Does not most, if not all the information about a drug come from the manufacturer, unless a physician takes time to research it themself?

Do I think they know the side effects? Some of them, yes. Do I think they know there is a natural alternative with no side effects, coupled with some common sense changes that will produce results? No.

I asked all 3 of the doctors that fed me the stuff for 14 months, questions about how it works, what it does, how do they know the adrenals come back up to full function after coming off of it, ect. Not one of them could answer all my questions. I told the last one, that I wanted off of it and insisted that I be dosed down. I went through 6 hard weeks of withdrawal, pain in bones like the worst flu, pain everywhere, inflammation severely back in lungs, difficulty breathing because of it.

Wondered if I was going to die, but since they already told me I was going to die, I figured I had little to lose. By the grace of God He led me to find what my body needed to be healed. I have not taken it since (a year in February), have no inflammation, took over six months to feel even remotely like myself again, without cronic fatigue.

The drug class action lawsuits are an indication of the indifference for a buck, of the Big Pharma, and the ONLY reason prednisone has not recently been the target of a class action, is because it's been on the market too long, and the lawyers don't feel they can win. I know, because I was about to be one of them in that class action, a result of a contact made to me, from me posting on two sites where people are describing the physical damage prednisone has done to them, and/or the death of relatives.

The internet is turning out to be a great tool for gathering people together to compare notes on what they are suffering after taking certain meds, prednisone being one high on that list. On the two sites I posted my story, at that time there were 1400+ people that posted on their trauma from it, and 1100+ on the other site. There would probably be a lot more, except most people probably don't know they exist.

Let me make this clear; I am not blaming the physicians. I am blaming Big Pharma that could care less what they feed people, as long as it makes them millions or billions before the first lawsuit hits the fan. Blessings....

[shawn]

A woman I knew spent the better part of the day in the emergency room 2 weeks ago.
The doctor said she just needed some rest and sent her home.
She died of a heart attack in her husband's arms 3 hours after they got home.

I was never sure what to think about when people mention horror stories to validate giving their own medical advice.  Physician's are not perfect.  Without examining that patient, having her labs, ekg, etc I can't make a judgement about the physician's care.  What I can say is that physicians can't always predict the future.  They do not have a crystal ball.  Freak things happen all the time in the face of normal studies.  In every line of work a certain amount of error is expected and accepted.  In the medical field we do not have that luxury because lives are at stake.  None of that validates telling others to come off a certain medication without consulting their physician.

[Beloved Servant]

I gave no medical advice.

[shawn]

I'm just curious Cardinal.  Do you believe physicians are wringing their hands waiting to give patients evil drugs that will harm them?  Do, you not believe the great majority of physicians know the side effects of prednisone?  While I know that some physicians are negligent most will gladly go over your research with you.  It's hard for the general public to sort through truth and fiction when it comes to things of a medical nature.  I can find site after site with incorrect or biased information unsupported by studies.  Is that what we are to base our life changing decisions upon?  Lets extrapolate this further and go off all our meds that have side effects that we read about on the net.

A patient has a responsibility to themself to be educated about what they take.  With that said, you should take that information to your physician for discussion before ever pulling yourself off a drug.  What if your post caused someone to stop a life saving dose of prednisone?  You do realize some individuals can't breathe without it right?  Do realize it can prevent blindness in certain disease processes?  Or are we only going to focus on the negative of a medication?

Did you know aspirin even in it's lowest dose form can cause a gastric ulcer than can kill you?  You can drink too much water and die as well.  Tylenol can cause liver failure and death (recently seen it do so), advil can cause kidney failure and gastric ulcerations, death.  I can go on and on but I think you get the picture.

Hello Shaun, I'd be interested to know your opinion on the pharmaceutal industry, do you belive that there is corruption and that they use their wealth to control medicine. e.g push drugs that treat symptoms, more than say natural treatments that some studies say cure the problem?

There is corruption in every industry.  That doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.  Let me give some information to some of the holistic naturalistic members of this board on a topic.  Almost all drugs originate from a "natural" source.  The plant foxglove gives us digoxin for instance.  It's in the pharm company's best interest to study and seek out these natural treatments then refine them for profit.  Saw palmetto?  Yep...they already took that one, regulated it, dosed it and concentrated it and turned it into meds for BPH.  Do I believe there is a natural cure out there that the pharm companies don't want you to find?  No.  Because if you find it...they will find a way to make money off of it.

Am I against "natural" drugs and herbs for treatment?  You bet I am.  Why?  For many reasons such as they are not dosed.  You often have no idea how much you are getting.  Also many people do not check the interactions these treatments have against the meds they are taking.  I personally like the idea of the FDA looking over our medications.  While you will always see a lawyer on TV trying to get the public to sue a pharm company for a terrible side effect of the drug these side effects only occur in a very small portion of the people taking them.  That's the job of the FDA to check and study these things.

But, I'm not a conspiracy theorist either.  I don't believe it to be evil to use medications to heal people like some have suggested.  If I did, I wouldn't do what I do.

[shawn]

I gave no medical advice.

Didn't say you did.  I was referring to you supporting Cardinal giving medical advice by giving out a horror story.

[Beloved Servant]

Wrong again.

[shawn]

@ Shawn.....Not intentionally, no. I think they are overworked, overbooked, and don't have time to do much more than listen to the pharmaceutical reps that paint a rosy picture for them, who are obviously biased towards the products they sell. Does not most, if not all the information about a drug come from the manufacturer, unless a physician takes time to research it themself?

Do I think they know the side effects? Some of them, yes. Do I think they know there is a natural alternative with no side effects, coupled with some common sense changes that will produce results? No.

I asked all 3 of the doctors that fed me the stuff for 14 months, questions about how it works, what it does, how do they know the adrenals come back up to full function after coming off of it, ect. Not one of them could answer all my questions. I told the last one, that I wanted off of it and insisted that I be dosed down. I went through 6 hard weeks of withdrawal, pain in bones like the worst flu, pain everywhere, inflammation severely back in lungs, difficulty breathing because of it.

Wondered if I was going to die, but since they already told me I was going to die, I figured I had little to lose. By the grace of God He led me to find what my body needed to be healed. I have not taken it since (a year in February), have no inflammation, took over six months to feel even remotely like myself again, without cronic fatigue.

The drug class action lawsuits are an indication of the indifference for a buck, of the Big Pharma, and the ONLY reason prednisone has not recently been the target of a class action, is because it's been on the market too long, and the lawyers don't feel they can win. I know, because I was about to be one of them in that class action, a result of a contact made to me, from me posting on two sites where people are describing the physical damage prednisone has done to them, and/or the death of relatives.

The internet is turning out to be a great tool for gathering people together to compare notes on what they are suffering after taking certain meds, prednisone being one high on that list. On the two sites I posted my story, at that time there were 1400+ people that posted on their trauma from it, and 1100+ on the other site. There would probably be a lot more, except most people probably don't know they exist.

Let me make this clear; I am not blaming the physicians. I am blaming Big Pharma that could care less what they feed people, as long as it makes them millions or billions before the first lawsuit hits the fan. Blessings....

I believe most physicians stay current.  The amount of medical knowledge we obtain doubles nearly every 7 years.  I would be obsolete if I didn't keep up.  And no we rarely believe what a pharm rep is telling us.  If you watch an infomercial do you believe all the claims?  As for natural alternatives with no side effects...I am very curious about these and would love to be educated.  I am always willing to learn.  I will say that we do overuse meds as a nation.  We do not pray, meditate, exercise, talk out our feelings enough.  If you believe we should throw meds away and pick up growing our own meds in our garden then more power to you.  We can agree to disagree.

Lets talk about prednisone a little bit.  I am truly sorry you had a bad experience with it.  I really am.  I am also sorry you suffered and I don't want to sound insensitive because that is not my intent.  I am also glad God healed you,  But, I have a question for you...

If prednisone improved/saved the lives of 99 people out of 100 but hurt or killed 1 out of 100 should that med be taken off the market?  That is what we are faced with concerning medications of all sorts not just prednisone.  I won't argue the fact that prednisone has an extensive and devastating side effect profile.  I also won't argue that docs have been known to overuse it and use it in odd ways.  But, I can also say that is not the norm.  Most of us use it with caution and extreme care.  We pick our patient populations, educate them and then make the best decision we can.  Does it always work out well for the patient...no.  That is a very tough part of the job for me.

I don't want to give the impression that I believe physicians are above reproach.  I know the horror stories of negligent physicians.  Yes, we are overworked.  I worked 72 hours in the last 5 days.  I get 2 days off then will do 72 more hours in 5 days.  We are human and do make mistakes.  It concerns me a great deal about taking care of my spiritual, emotional, and physical health so that I can be at my best for my patients.  Has anyone had a poor reaction or side effect from a drug I have prescribed?  Absolutely.  Do I take side effect profiles of drugs very seriously?  Yes.  And I don't think I'm alone.

[shawn]

Wrong again.

Well then I apologize if I misread why you brought up a possible physician negligence case into this conversation.

[Beloved Servant]

I accused no one of negligence. Didn't even occur to me.

Is that the first thing that came to you?

Perhaps her husband has a lawsuit?

[micah7:9]

This is a thought that came from the Lord. The health care in this country and the world is wonderful and top notch, yet man is a hungry species. The more he finds, the more he gets, the more he believes it is him, the more of what he offers in the guise of help, is only a need for more. These verses caused me to step back and consider today.
Gen 3:5  for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been        as God, knowing good and evil.'
Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

If that mind set has come upon man, God is not who men of health turn to, they turn to man. Just my 

[Cardinal]

There is corruption in every industry.  That doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.  Let me give some information to some of the holistic naturalistic members of this board on a topic.  Almost all drugs originate from a "natural" source.  The plant foxglove gives us digoxin for instance.  It's in the pharm company's best interest to study and seek out these natural treatments then refine them for profit.  Saw palmetto?  Yep...they already took that one, regulated it, dosed it and concentrated it and turned it into meds for BPH.  Do I believe there is a natural cure out there that the pharm companies don't want you to find?  No.  Because if you find it...they will find a way to make money off of it.

Am I against "natural" drugs and herbs for treatment?  You bet I am.  Why?  For many reasons such as they are not dosed.  You often have no idea how much you are getting.  Also many people do not check the interactions these treatments have against the meds they are taking.  I personally like the idea of the FDA looking over our medications.  While you will always see a lawyer on TV trying to get the public to sue a pharm company for a terrible side effect of the drug these side effects only occur in a very small portion of the people taking them.  That's the job of the FDA to check and study these things.

But, I'm not a conspiracy theorist either.  I don't believe it to be evil to use medications to heal people like some have suggested.  If I did, I wouldn't do what I do.

  Let me preface my remarks by saying that I have NO PROBLEM with anyone taking an herb, IF the LORD tells you to do it. And He has told me before to take a specific thing. That said....

The "funny" thing is, I am not a "holistic" believer. I have been equally vocal over the years about people using herbs as their ONLY healer, and even more so after He gave me a dream about it. I had a friend and she and her mother had everything known to man in that way and swore by them.

One night, I had a dream, I was sitting at my friend's table with another friend, and she presented our "meal" which consisted of a glass of water with some herbs floating in it, with an air of pride of accomplishment for doing it.

The LORD spoke thru me to her in the dream and said, "How is it you have faith in the thing created, but no faith in the Spirit that created the thing?"

Equally telling, there is a woman who has been doing this stuff for years, what I am about to share, and also she claims she can look in your eyes and see what herbs you need. So: a co-worker convinced my boss to go with her to see this woman. The woman has an herb shop, and she does this "thing" where she has you hold a stick of gum in your hand, and extend your arm out straight from your body.

Then she proves to you how, since the gum's not a natural creation she can easily pull your arm down with you straining for her not to, thereby "proving" that man-made things weaken the body. And then she would have you hold one of her herbs and she couldn't pull your arm down. And it's always worked......

UNTIL the day my boss asked me to go with them. I told them that I would go only to prove to them that it was a form of witchcraft this woman was using. When we arrived, before getting out of the car, I asked the Lord, for His glory, to open their eyes and I prayed and broke the power of witchcraft and told it, it would have no power over me, right in front of them.

I was ridiculed by the co-worker, who decided I was "religious", LOL. However, when the herb lady tried the same parlor trick on me, she pulled and pulled, nearly got a hernia trying to pull my arm down, and it didn't work. She was furious, and clearly flustered. But not half as furious as my co-worker who had already blown $80 on her cures.

As for healing, I believe the Lord uses ALL things including doctors, for His purposes, but specifically we are to seek Him as our healer. I was healed of terminal cancer within one week of diagnosis (I was hemmoraghing), healed of 4 ruptured discs with accompanying partial paralysis, a heart attack, a crushed elbow joint.

Also, a massive concussion from a car wreck that went untreated and undetected for 8 months (they couldn't read the films in the ER, I guess; the neurologist 8 months later, was stunned), and the short term memory loss that accompanied it. I couldn't drive for 3 months because, while I could read the road signs, I couldn't retain anything I read, and so got lost. I couldn't remember where I was, from one minute to the next.

And lately, lung damage from pneumonia that didn't respond to antibiotics, which was the reason for being fed the prednisone in the first place. All of these were documented with tests, "before and after". Literally, I wouldn't be here half a dozen times over, if it were not for the faith He has given me to believe He is a healer today, as well.

So I will rephrase what I said in the earlier post, by adding that anyone taking prednisone should RESEARCH it and it's side effects, which are many, and the natural alternatives, THEN TALK TO THEIR DOCTOR about the potential for getting off the stuff. My Blessings....

[shawn]

I accused no one of negligence. Didn't even occur to me.

Is that the first thing that came to you?

Perhaps her husband has a lawsuit?

If a physician discharges someone to home and they die of an MI then most people assume negligence.  Physicians themselves would take a very close look at that case.  Most of the time people with chest pain are admitted for this very reason.  But, I'm unsure of her presentation.  Sometimes people just don't feel well and don't have chest pain.  It's hard to say without the chart.

[shawn]

This is a thought that came from the Lord. The health care in this country and the world is wonderful and top notch, yet man is a hungry species. The more he finds, the more he gets, the more he believes it is him, the more of what he offers in the guise of help, is only a need for more. These verses caused me to step back and consider today.
Gen 3:5  for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been        as God, knowing good and evil.'
Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

If that mind set has come upon man, God is not who men of health turn to, they turn to man. Just my  

Micah...I have wrestled with things like this in my mind as well.  Are we looking to man for healing or are we looking to God?  Is there a sort of arrogance as our knowledge grows greater?  Is there less reliance on prayer and more on medicine?  I'm not sure I know the answer.  I can tell you what I believe.  I believe God wants us to rely on each other..to need one another.  But, above all we need to rely on him and need him.  I believe God uses man and his God given knowledge to help heal but ultimately its God's will that is done.  I can help no one without his permission.  My attempts to heal are in vain if they are out of line with his will and purpose.  

I had an uncle who had a heart condition since he was a child.  He went down the road of believing he had been healed by God stopped his medication and died shortly there after.  What is the lesson in that I ask myself.  Is it that we should trust man and not God?  Absolutely not.  But, it did instill in me that God uses man...he uses other humans in the healing process.  That isn't to be underestimated in my opinion.

[Beloved Servant]

Thanks.
The coroner did an autopsy.
I don't know why her husband would consent to such barbarism but it's none of my business.