Author Topic: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?  (Read 1927 times)

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Texas Son

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Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« on: July 02, 2009, 06:03:48 AM »
I was doing a word search on google and this book popped up. After reading the reviews on it I think I might order it. I was wondering if anyone else has read it yet.

TS

Tim B

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 06:41:37 AM »
I saw that on Amazon too after finding a random link to it. I haven't bought it, but it's gotten good reviews. ^_^

Roy Monis

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 08:45:15 PM »
Quote
Isaiah 45:22-25

22 Look to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [allegiance].
24 Only in the Lord shall one say, I have righteousness (salvation and victory) and strength [to achieve]. To Him shall all come who were incensed against Him, and they shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the offspring of Israel be justified (enjoy righteousness, salvation, and victory) and shall glory.


Dear brother Texas Son

I agree wholeheartedly with the sound advice given by Tim.B quoted above.

Jerome, whoever he was, was a mere man and as such made one hell of a mess (pardon the pun) of things for which we are left to suffer now. As has been proven down the whole history of mankind from Noah to the present time, but man is stupid he prefers to follow fellow man, like Jerome, rather than God. It seems he will never learn to trust God and not his own understanding. "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOPUR OWN UNDERSTANDING." (Pro.3-5). Do this my brother and leave Jerome where he is, in the grave, causing no further trouble. You will be nearer to God and richer in pocket by so doing.

That is my advice and it is in agreement with brother TimB. In fact leave all books authored by man well alone and trust God, He is big enough and He WILL provide all your needs as He is doing mine.

Love is of God……. Love is God……. This comes to all in love
Roy    (UK)

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 08:46:31 PM »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 09:20:39 PM »
I maybe will order it, however Jerome himself is said to have been an universalist.

Latin aeternum (eternal) and saeculum (age) might have been synonyms, so Jerome might have not willfully twisted scripture.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 09:34:35 PM »
Yep. To know for sure we should look in a dictionary of that time. In modern dictionaries means get added without stating at what date the meaning was added.

We had this/similar chat in this post starting at #7
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3881.msg42512#msg42512
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 10:44:53 PM »
I got the book after reading the free chapters.  I've read it about three times now and I spotted an error in it regarding a verse that the author claims Jerome lied about.  I won't say what it is to see if anyone else spots it.  I also checked out some of the 'differences' between the Setuagint and our usual Bible translations and I didn't come across anything earth shatteringly different, so I'm not sure if this book is hyped up or what other errors may be in.  What is very frustrating is that the author has not allowed a 'feedback' to him on his web site.......

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 10:56:26 PM »
Hi Cat,

Did you read the first or second edition?
I don't know if the second edition is just a new batch of books or also fixed some errors.

A not so raving review as show on the site:
http://www.amazon.com/Jerome-Conspiracy-Second-Michael-Wood/product-reviews/1440100152/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar

Quote
The Jerome Conspiracy
Second Edition
The Universal Hope Edition

« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 10:59:41 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 11:17:18 PM »
I've got the second edition.  I've just read the review.  I actually liked the fictional story although it was a bit lame and everything turned out just perfectly, so that part won't be to everyone's taste.  It gets you thinking about lots of good stuff so I don't regret buying it, but I wish I could contact the author to check a few things...

Texas Son

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 04:36:36 AM »
Thanks for the reviews and info folks. I think I may have to order this one.

If I'm not mistaken Jerome was responsible for the Latin Vulgate. Is there any examples of him using his own translation in error?

Another question: why do we suppose that from the very first few centuries after Christ did God allow man to corrupt His Word? How is man truly supposed to seek God out if they don't even realize there is a problem with their version of Scripture?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 07:52:43 AM »
"How is man truly supposed to seek God out if they don't even realize there is a problem with their version of Scripture?"

How long after the death of Jesus the word started to spread on a large scale?
After printed books I guess. To use part of your words:
"How is man truly supposed to seek God out if they don't even realize God exists?"

So millenia have passed without God attempting/ordering to spread His word.
In that light I'm not suprised He allows corrupted versions.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 10:30:16 PM »
Thanks for the reviews and info folks. I think I may have to order this one.

If I'm not mistaken Jerome was responsible for the Latin Vulgate. Is there any examples of him using his own translation in error?

Another question: why do we suppose that from the very first few centuries after Christ did God allow man to corrupt His Word? How is man truly supposed to seek God out if they don't even realize there is a problem with their version of Scripture?

I don't know about Jerome using his 'own translation' but I've just spotted what seems to be another blatant 'error' of Michael Wood's:  He claims that Jerome deliberately mistranslated 'aionios' for the latin 'aeturnum' instead of 'seculorum', although Jerome conveniently 'properly' translates it so at Eph 3:11.  I've just checked this verse in the Greek and on
http://biblelexicon.org/ephesians/3-11.htm :   the Greek word is 'aion', not 'aionios', hence why Jerome would have used 'seculorum' here and not 'aeturnum'.  If I've looked this up wrongly and am in error then please show me.  If not, then I fail to see how Michael Wood is not aware of this distinction, if he is as thorough at spotting 'conspiracies' as he makes out. 

The other 'error' I spotted was where Wood claims that Jerome lied about the verse: 'he shall be called a Nazarene'.  Jerome claimed this was not in the Septuagint and I cannot find it in the Septuagint either:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/07-judges-nets.pdf 

Wood says "this phrase was never missing from the Septuagint in the first place!  It is found in Judges 13:5." The word 'Nazarene' is not found there but rather 'Nazarite' which I believe is an entirely different word.  According to Wood, Jerome claimed it was in the Hebrew text, which again I cannot find, so Wood seems to right about that point:
http://biblelexicon.org/judges/13-5.htm

I wonder why Jerome would 'lie' about this, when other scholars could have checked this verse in the available Hebrew manuscripts??  If I'm wrong on these matters then I hope someone shows me where. 

On your second point, it does seem 'strange' that our Bibles today may convey a way different message to what the original message intended, and so we're being led a wild goose chase.   :dontknow:



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 11:29:47 PM »
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

3480 Nazwrai/oj Nazoraios {nad-zo-rah'-yos}
Meaning:  Nazarite = "one separated" 1) an inhabitant of Nazareth 2) a title given to Jesus in the NT

Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Meaning:  1) consecrated or devoted one, Nazarite 1a) consecrated one 1b) devotee, Nazarite 1c) untrimmed (vine)

Looks like Nazarite can mean Nazarene -> set apart/devoted to God.


Quote
the Greek word is 'aion'
The plural form.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2009, 04:14:47 PM »
I've been checking out the difference between Nazarene and Nazarite and I found this:

"In English, the town (Nazareth) and the vow in Numbers (Nazarite), seem to be similar. But in Hebrew they are two totally different words. The town, transliterated, would be: Nats-raht. While the vow would be: nah-zear.

It becomes very clear then, that what the Gospels are doing is not making Jesus out to be the 'vow taker' but 'the Branch' for the meaning of Nazareth is 'branch,' a very powerful messianic title used by a number of prophets: "

http://www.seedofabraham.net/naz.html

I don't understand your reference to the plural of 'aion'?? :mshock:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2009, 06:33:17 PM »
Quote
I don't understand your reference to the plural of 'aion'??
It's not age but ages. Two different Greek words.

Quote
"In English, the town (Nazareth) and the vow in Numbers (Nazarite), seem to be similar. But in Hebrew they are two totally different words. The town, transliterated, would be: Nats-raht. While the vow would be: nah-zear.
Sorry I lost track now.
Matthew is written in Greek.

What I quoted is the translation according to Strong linked to KJV.
According to Strong Nazarite=Nazarine

Quote
It becomes very clear then, that what the Gospels are doing is not making Jesus out to be the 'vow taker' but 'the Branch' for the meaning of Nazareth is 'branch,' a very powerful messianic title used by a number of prophets: "
The untrimmed vine

Companion Bible:
Quote
For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be one separate unto Elohim from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be one separate unto Elohim from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

There are some differences in the translations and in the word defenitions.
Checking out your link now:

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

It gets very interesting when we read John 19:19 which is: 'Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, 'Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews.' It can equally be translated like this: 'Jesus My Branch, the King of the Jews.'

That means that according to that article Nazarene=branch
Judges uses the term Nazarite. The defenition of Nazarite is untrimmed vine (a branch)

Some IMO Nazarite=Nazarene=Branch=the One set aside
All purely based on English translations because I can't read Hebrew.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2009, 09:39:17 PM »
Hi WhiteWings  :bigGrin:  Thanks for checking these things.  'Aion' is indeed in the plural, but it is still a noun and we know that the noun aion can be translated to convey a period of time, UNLIKE it's adjective 'aionios' which always seems to be translated as 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.  So Michael Wood was either being dishonest himself to claim Ephesians 3:11 contains 'aionios' when the manuscript from the link I provided shows it as 'aion'.  Do you see what I mean?   :mshock:  or he wasn't careful to check the exact words like we are doing.  This is how it seems.  Maybe I am wrong.  I'm not that observant and things usually go over my head but I just happened to check this claim of Wood's and voila- he seems to be mistaken.

Now to the Nazarene/Nazarite comparison.  When you google this, you get many articles.  This one I found interesting as a $1000 reward was offered: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/115

But this short article seems to explain it the most convincingly (well to me anyway): http://www.learnthebible.org/nazarene.html

Now lets suppose there is a legitimate connection between the two terms (which I don't believe there is), Michael Wood would surely notice during his research, that 'Nazarite' and 'Nazarene' are 'different'  and would surely have checked them out, like we are doing.  He would then see that Jerome was not being dishonest in his approach to this particular difference.  Does that sound reasonable?   :bgdance:


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2009, 10:40:34 PM »
Quote
'Aion' is indeed in the plural, but it is still a noun and we know that the noun aion can be translated to convey a period of time, UNLIKE it's adjective 'aionios' which always seems to be translated as 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.

I don't know what going on either that's why I made just a very brief remark.
I can't prove my following claim. I just remeber an article about it. The meaning of English words change.
For example hel (unseen/covered) changed mean into ET hell.
History played the same trick on the Latin version of eternal. What once was meaning age-during turned into eternal. So we need to observer extreme caution making claims about the meaning of words based on modern dictionaries.

Quote
I just happened to check this claim of Wood's and voila- he seems to be mistaken.
Like all research some points teh researcher is extremely sure about; other less sure.
I would think that only the extremly sure items are used as PR...

Quote
Now to the Nazarene/Nazarite comparison
I checked it out and for me it measn the same. You disagree. That's fine because my conclusion isn't in the extremely sure catagory to start with.
If the 5 minutes Googling and my understanding of Hebrew outclasses what Wood has researched on that word....
The only good place to 'store' that book is in the fireplace.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/115
The verse isn't discussing the title of Jesus. Just where He lived. So the meaning is "irrelevant"
Quote
What, then, is Matthew's meaning? The text is saying simply this: Jesus lived in Nazareth not because the prophets had said that He would live in that specific city, but in order to fulfill additional specific things that the prophets had said about Him. Lenski has done an excellent job of explaining this point:


Quote
Now lets suppose there is a legitimate connection between the two terms (which I don't believe there is), Michael Wood would surely notice during his research, that 'Nazarite' and 'Nazarene' are 'different'  and would surely have checked them out, like we are doing.  He would then see that Jerome was not being dishonest in his approach to this particular difference.  Does that sound reasonable?
Cat, let me start saying that being wrong can just mean 'being wrong'. Not every mistake has ill intend.
I checked out the links you gave me. I checked Strongs and quoted from it. And we come to different conclusions.
My conclusion is honest. I'm sure yours is too. Possibly the same can be said about Wood and Jerome.
The both of us have exatly the same sources to check. Not so for Wood and Jerome. Both can be right with the data they had availble to their research.
Plus are Jeromes writings authentic. A good (I think) exmple is teh Bible by William Tyndale. He was executed as a heretic (see signature of WillieH) The church editted out the heretic words. King James is partly based on the editted Tyndale work. There are reports that whole of Mathew 16 (I think) is added lateron.
Buyer beware...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2009, 11:04:18 PM »
You are quite right in what you are saying.  Please don't misunderstand my intentions.  The whole point of Wood's book is that he has unearthed a conspiracy.  If the points I've mentioned are somewhat dishonest (intentional or not) on Wood's part then it does make you wonder on the rest of his claims and whether the conspiracy is actually 'his'.  :winkgrin:   It doesn't really matter to me about the Nazarene/Nazarite connection.  Both 'understandings' are plausable.  It's the way Wood has made a big 'deal' out of it in a sneaky way almost.

One good thing about this book is that it has got me checking stuff.  I'm presently checking out this whole 'aionios' 'conspiracy', and I am rather concerned that I'm not finding leading Greek scholars who seem to support UR's view of this word.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.   :mblush:  Anyhow, I'm going onto a nother subject which may already exist somewhere on here.  Bye for now........... :gangel:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2009, 11:21:09 PM »
One good thing about this book is that it has got me checking stuff.  I'm presently checking out this whole 'aionios' 'conspiracy', and I am rather concerned that I'm not finding leading Greek scholars who seem to support UR's view of this word.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.   :mblush:  Anyhow, I'm going onto a nother subject which may already exist somewhere on here.  Bye for now........... :gangel:
Make sure you don't mix up current definition with the definition from that time.
Another aproach is to start from the Hebrew OT. Then compare with the LXX to see how people from that time translated Hebrew to Greek. In that case you need leading Hebrew scholars to define the Hebrew words.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 11:45:22 PM »
I looked up 'olam' in a 'on line' Hebrew Bible and they translate it the same as us (everlasting, eternal)  (By 'us' I mean mainstream Christian scholars/translators).  I wonder why the Jews who aren't swayed by our NT 'understandings' also make the same mistake.....  I'll check some more Jewish sources to see if this is true generally.  The plot thickens................ :mshock:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 08:23:24 AM »
Cat,
Few quick quotes and links.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/index.html
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/AeonRelm.htm
http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/forever.html




Quote
In Leviticus, 23:37–41, they were ordered to celebrate the seven-day Khag of
Tabernacles because it was "a µl[ tqj (khoquth olam),"9 i.e., a world-age lasting
statute.10 The Khag of Weeks is also specifically referred to in the Torah as
a "khoquth olam (world-age lasting statute)."11

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 10:16:11 AM »
thanks for the links WhiteWings.  I shall check them out later today.   :thumbsup:

Cat

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 08:38:46 PM »
I've had a look at the links and they seem to saying what a lot of other sites say.  The problem I have though, is that the people who write these articles don't appear to be experts in NT Greek or OT Hebrew.  So it is possible they are relaying the same information which might originate with people who want these words to mean something else in order to support the belief in UR.  Has anyone got any sites or sources that support the UR understanding of 'owlam' and 'aionios' which are from 'experts' in the languages?  I've come across an online Tanach, and yet again, they are translating 'owlam' as 'everlasting' or 'perpetual'.  I've emailed them about this and I'll continue to research this.   :bigGrin:  I'll let you know if they come back to me......

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 09:14:25 PM »
Cat,

Some logical thinking goes a long way too.

Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever/owlam.
=> slaves don't live forever

 Jeremiah 7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever/owlam and ever/owlam
=> multiple owlams/eternities?

There are many more similar verses; but I think the above two prove that owlam does not (always) mean eternal.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Has anyone read the book, "The Jerome Conspiracy"?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 09:15:21 PM »
Referring to time past literally from olam(מֵעוֹלָם and מִן הָעוֹלָם). These phrases occur at least 20 times, a sample of which I will quote, using typical standard translations:

I have kept silent for a long time (Isaiah 42: 14).

Mighty men which were of old (Gen 6: 4).

From everlasting to everlasting, you are God (Psalm 90: 2) (as below)

You are from everlasting (Psalm 93: 2).

They were the inhabitants of the land from ancient times (1 Sa 27: 8).

From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River (Joshua 24: 2).

It is an ancient nation (Jer 5: 15).

All the above are translations of the same Hebrew phrase from olam, but clearly the length of time varies. The shortest is the length of time Isaiah had kept silent. The longest is the length of time that God has been God!
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...