Grave, Paradise and all these things

[WhiteWings]

Firstfruits relates to the resurrected Christ.

The whole Bible relates to Christ so yes there is a relation.
I have 2 main interpretations of what First Fruits actually is. Right now I can say is foolish to just accept The First Fruits offering represents Jesus because He's called First Fruit. By that I mean by only looking at those words. That little s can make a huge difference 

He is the firstfruits of the resurrection.  That wouldn't contradict your wave sheafs, ww

I assume you are replying to teh answer I gave Sheila? In that case it's about the numbers. She for example mentioned 10. I don't see where that fits.

[sheila]

re; where I think 10 fits in....a day for a year pattern. It took 10 years for Joshua to take promised land. Jesus ascended to Heaven, then ten days later

  poured out Holy spirit[token of Kingdom of Heaven]

   so we have the three day journey to make sacrifice to God...that turned into 40...with an additional 10 to take possesion of promise.  law covenant53

   then we have  3 day sacrifice[ministry today and tomorrow and on the third I be perfected]] followed by 40 days..then 10=53.

      that's the pattern I'm talking about

   not saying it's more than what it is, I see 'something' in it.

[CHB]

Molly, sorry you are sad but I actually do believe we already have eternal life, we actually had it before the foundation of the world but...and I don't know how to word this but...it isn't a done deal yet. I think of it kind of like when we were chosen before the foundation of the world but first we had to be born. Or we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. It's a spiritual thing. Physically we are still here and physically we are still human but spiritually these things are already. It is a process.

The above, which was something I said earlier got me to thinking.

I think I understand now why Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall never die".  Paul said, those who are in Christ died with him and when Christ was resurrected so were we. So, that means we have already experienced a resurrection. Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies NOW.  If that is true, then nothing that happens will change that.  If those who are in Christ are sitting in the heavenlies now, that would mean that even if we die we will still be sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. We will still be as if we are alive, even though we are dead. I don't know if I am explaining this so that it will be understood or not? As I said earlier, "we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world and we also had eternal life before the world began, therefore we will never die. It is the same as us sitting in Christ on the right hand of God now. Even though we are not, we are, spiritually speaking.

When you think of it like this we will never die because we were chosen to life.

WW, because the thief ask Christ to remember him when he came into his klingdom that put the thief in the same position that we are in and from that moment on the thief lived in Christ, was resurrected with him and is sitting on the right hand of God even though he is in the grave and knows nothing.  I don't remember the verse or exact words but it says something like "God preceives things as though they are even though they are not yet". Hope this all made sense.

CHB

[Taffy]

God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. As He our Heaven Father is, SO ARE WE, imitators of the Father of Life

I think I understand now why Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall never die".  Paul said, those who are in Christ died with him and when Christ was resurrected so were we. So, that means we have already experienced a resurrection. Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies NOW.  If that is true, then nothing that happens will change that.  If those who are in Christ are sitting in the heavenlies now, that would mean that even if we die we will still be sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. We will still be as if we are alive, even though we are dead. I don't know if I am explaining this so that it will be understood or not? As I said earlier, "we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world and we also had eternal life before the world began, therefore we will never die. It is the same as us sitting in Christ on the right hand of God now. Even though we are not, we are, spiritually speaking

[Molly]

Molly, sorry you are sad but I actually do believe we already have eternal life, we actually had it before the foundation of the world but...and I don't know how to word this but...it isn't a done deal yet. I think of it kind of like when we were chosen before the foundation of the world but first we had to be born. Or we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. It's a spiritual thing. Physically we are still here and physically we are still human but spiritually these things are already. It is a process.

The above, which was something I said earlier got me to thinking.

I think I understand now why Jesus said "whosoever believeth in me shall never die".  Paul said, those who are in Christ died with him and when Christ was resurrected so were we. So, that means we have already experienced a resurrection. Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies NOW.  If that is true, then nothing that happens will change that.  If those who are in Christ are sitting in the heavenlies now, that would mean that even if we die we will still be sitting in Christ on the right hand of God. We will still be as if we are alive, even though we are dead. I don't know if I am explaining this so that it will be understood or not? As I said earlier, "we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world and we also had eternal life before the world began, therefore we will never die. It is the same as us sitting in Christ on the right hand of God now. Even though we are not, we are, spiritually speaking.

When you think of it like this we will never die because we were chosen to life.

WW, because the thief ask Christ to remember him when he came into his klingdom that put the thief in the same position that we are in and from that moment on the thief lived in Christ, was resurrected with him and is sitting on the right hand of God even though he is in the grave and knows nothing.  I don't remember the verse or exact words but it says something like "God preceives things as though they are even though they are not yet". Hope this all made sense.

CHB

Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.

But, it is a fact.  We are a type of first fruits.  We will live with Christ forever.  We have been given eternal life.


For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

[WhiteWings]

re; where I think 10 fits in....a day for a year pattern. It took 10 years for Joshua to take promised land. Jesus ascended to Heaven, then ten days later

  poured out Holy spirit[token of Kingdom of Heaven]

   so we have the three day journey to make sacrifice to God...that turned into 40...with an additional 10 to take possesion of promise.  law covenant53

   then we have  3 day sacrifice[ministry today and tomorrow and on the third I be perfected]] followed by 40 days..then 10=53.

      that's the pattern I'm talking about

   not saying it's more than what it is, I see 'something' in it.

I replied to your previous post with a 
Seems the post didn't cross the atlantic. Very very bad connection today. It took me 5-20 minutes to save a post. And sadly that's no exaggeration. Anyway all is up to speed now.
It also to Joshua 10 days to cross starting from the point the 30 day mourning period for Moses ended.
30+10=40
40 is a very common number. 10 we just discussed. But what is 30? Just 3x10?

   so we have the three day journey to make sacrifice to God...that turned into 40...with an additional 10 to take possesion of promise.  law covenant53

   then we have  3 day sacrifice[ministry today and tomorrow and on the third I be perfected]] followed by 40 days..then 10=53.

I understand, but I would say it's 40 not 53 because 3 is part of 40.

[WhiteWings]

WW, because the thief ask Christ to remember him when he came into his klingdom that put the thief in the same position that we are in and from that moment on the thief lived in Christ, was resurrected with him and is sitting on the right hand of God even though he is in the grave and knows nothing.  I don't remember the verse or exact words but it says something like "God preceives things as though they are even though they are not yet". Hope this all made sense.

So you mean the resurrection of the thief was "the promise of life"

God preceives things as though they are even though they are not yet

God is at every place at once. But also at every time. For God their is only now. But I think the Bible has a fairly liniar order. Otherwise it just would be a mess. I mean would you undestand the Bible if all verses where mixed up? Jesus resurrected in Genesis an prophesised in Revelation   

[CHB]

Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.

But Molly, we are not dead physically. We are not sitting in heaven physically.  We don't have eternal life at this moment because we are still in the flesh. We didn't physically die when Christ died. We weren't physically buried with him. We haven't experienced a resurrection yet. All of this is still future to us but God calls things that are not as though they are. Whatever Taffy said. 

CHB

[WhiteWings]

CHB
Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.
But, it is a fact.  We are a type of first fruits.

First Fruits are harvested in March/April not in January....

We will live with Christ forever.

Yes.

  We have been given eternal life.
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

That's a wrong translation. Only Father is eternal. Without a beginning and without an end.
Forever is without an end. But with a beginning. The main question is: When is/was that beginning?

[jabcat]

Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.

But Molly, we are not dead physically. We are not sitting in heaven physically.  We don't have eternal life at this moment because we are still in the flesh. We didn't physically die when Christ died. We weren't physically buried with him. We haven't experienced a resurrection yet. All of this is still future to us but God calls things that are not as though they are. Whatever Taffy said. 

CHB

I'm not arguing one way or another, I do believe what Jesus said, that whoever believes in Him will never die.  It's sort of like what Tony and I are just discussing in the other thread, "definitions" (not the best word  ).  Is being promised something, and knowing it will absolutely happen, always the same as completely possessing it at that moment?  In God's timelessness, isn't it the "same as done", but we personally have yet to experience it?  I'm not sure what this has to do with anything exactly, I'm just saying I believe what Jesus said, just once again, I don't know exactly how He'll bring it about or what it will look like... yes, we've been given eternal life.  But has that already begun?  It seems so, at least on some plane and to some degree, because Jesus said we'd NEVER die... 

[Molly]

Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.

But Molly, we are not dead physically. We are not sitting in heaven physically.  We don't have eternal life at this moment because we are still in the flesh. We didn't physically die when Christ died. We weren't physically buried with him. We haven't experienced a resurrection yet. All of this is still future to us but God calls things that are not as though they are. Whatever Taffy said. 

CHB

I'm not arguing one way or another, I do believe what Jesus said, that whoever believes in Him will never die.  It's sort of like what Tony and I are just discussing in the other thread, "definitions" (not the best word  ).  Is being promised something, and knowing it will absolutely happen, always the same as completely possessing it at that moment?  In God's timelessness, isn't it the "same as done", but we personally have yet to experience it?  I'm not sure what this has to do with anything exactly, I'm just saying I believe what Jesus said, just once again, I don't know exactly how He'll bring it about or what it will look like... yes, we've been given eternal life.  But has that already begun?  It seems so, at least on some plane and to some degree, because Jesus said we'd NEVER die... 

Jab-- "yes, we've been given eternal life. But has that already begun?"


YES!!!
 


"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
--John 5:24


"crossed over"  [from death to life]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.

[WhiteWings]

It's sort of like what Tony and I are just discussing in the other thread, "definitions" (not the best word  ).  Is being promised something, and knowing it will absolutely happen, always the same as completely possessing it at that moment?  In God's timelessness, isn't it the "same as done", but we personally have yet to experience it?  I'm not sure what this has to do with anything exactly, I'm just saying I believe what Jesus said, just once again, I don't know exactly how He'll bring it about or what it will look like... yes, we've been given eternal life.  But has that already begun?  It seems so, at least on some plane and to some degree, because Jesus said we'd NEVER die... 

It was the sacrifice of Jesus that made endless life possible. Does that mean nobody ever died?

(Revelation 13:8) And all who dwell upon the earth will worship it, whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was killed from the foundation of the world.

[jabcat]

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
--John 5:24


"crossed over"  [from death to life]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.

alright, good scrip :)

[Molly]

That's a wrong translation. Only Father is eternal. Without a beginning and without an end.
Forever is without an end. But with a beginning. The main question is: When is/was that beginning?

We all know the word is aionios.  I'm happy to use the word eternal in this case because the point being made is this body in heaven is not transient like the one we are living in now.

It will last for a long long time--as long as is decreed.

When is the beginning?   As soon as you believe.


And I will dwell in the house of the LORD in a day that lasts forever.  Psa 23

[Molly]

It's sort of like what Tony and I are just discussing in the other thread, "definitions" (not the best word  ).  Is being promised something, and knowing it will absolutely happen, always the same as completely possessing it at that moment?  In God's timelessness, isn't it the "same as done", but we personally have yet to experience it?  I'm not sure what this has to do with anything exactly, I'm just saying I believe what Jesus said, just once again, I don't know exactly how He'll bring it about or what it will look like... yes, we've been given eternal life.  But has that already begun?  It seems so, at least on some plane and to some degree, because Jesus said we'd NEVER die... 

It was the sacrifice of Jesus that made endless life possible. Does that mean nobody ever died?

(Revelation 13:8) And all who dwell upon the earth will worship it, whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was killed from the foundation of the world.

  Jesus is the first fruits of them that slept.

[CHB]

Jabcat, did you read post #77 above?

We were  chosen in him before the foundation of the world but we weren't even born. Paul said he was "crucified with Christ", was he really crucified in the flesh as Jesus was? Did he hang on a tree with Christ also? Was Paul really buried when Christ was buried? was Paul circumcised when Christ was circumcised?  Was Jesus really crucified before the world began? Spiritually yes, to all of these. Jesus said "we would never die" and spiritually we won't but there will come a day when we will take our last breath.

I think it all has to do with progression. Really all of it is a reality because God will carry out His promises.

CHB

[Taffy]

Yes, the only thing that perplexes me, CHB, is why you keep clinging to the idea that the dead know nothing.  It seems like you see eternal life as a potential instead of as a fact.

But Molly, we are not dead physically. We are not sitting in heaven physically.  We don't have eternal life at this moment because we are still in the flesh. We didn't physically die when Christ died. We weren't physically buried with him. We haven't experienced a resurrection yet. All of this is still future to us but God calls things that are not as though they are. Whatever Taffy said. 

CHB

we do have eteranl Life now CHB~but one understands your point## we still live the experience in this world#~ i see both in what you moly are sharing to be Trrue~

[Molly]

We walk by faith, not by sight.

Therefore, our experience of this life should be vastly different from that of non believers.

[Taffy]

~ 1Cr 15:19   If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.  


 1Cr 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 

[jabcat]

Jabcat, did you read post #77 above?

We were  chosen in him before the foundation of the world but we weren't even born. Paul said he was "crucified with Christ", was he really crucified in the flesh as Jesus was? Did he hang on a tree with Christ also? Was Paul really buried when Christ was buried? was Paul circumcised when Christ was circumcised?  Was Jesus really crucified before the world began? Spiritually yes, to all of these. Jesus said "we would never die" and spiritually we won't but there will come a day when we will take our last breath.

I think it all has to do with progression. Really all of it is a reality because God will carry out His promises.

CHB

yes, i think it's sort of intermingled with the thoughts i presented..sort of different "angles" from which to view it..thanks!  :)

[micah7:9]

Jabcat, did you read post #77 above?

We were  chosen in him before the foundation of the world but we weren't even born. Paul said he was "crucified with Christ", was he really crucified in the flesh as Jesus was? Did he hang on a tree with Christ also? Was Paul really buried when Christ was buried? was Paul circumcised when Christ was circumcised?  Was Jesus really crucified before the world began? Spiritually yes, to all of these. Jesus said "we would never die" and spiritually we won't but there will come a day when we will take our last breath.

I think it all has to do with progression. Really all of it is a reality because God will carry out His promises.

CHB

 

[WhiteWings]

That's a wrong translation. Only Father is eternal. Without a beginning and without an end.
Forever is without an end. But with a beginning. The main question is: When is/was that beginning?

We all know the word is aionios.  I'm happy to use the word eternal in this case because the point being made is this body in heaven is not transient like the one we are living in now.

It will last for a long long time--as long as is decreed.

When is the beginning?   As soon as you believe.

Then why are the Christians dead?

^ACV1Thess 4
16 Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the arch-agent, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first,
15 For this we say to you in the word of Lord, that we who are alive, who remain for the coming of the Lord, will no, not precede those who became asleep.

^ACV1Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will actually not all  sleep, but we will all be transformed,


"not all sleep" means most will sleep.

[Molly]

That's a wrong translation. Only Father is eternal. Without a beginning and without an end.
Forever is without an end. But with a beginning. The main question is: When is/was that beginning?

We all know the word is aionios.  I'm happy to use the word eternal in this case because the point being made is this body in heaven is not transient like the one we are living in now.

It will last for a long long time--as long as is decreed.

When is the beginning?   As soon as you believe.

Then why are the Christians dead?

^ACV1Thess 4
16 Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the arch-agent, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first,
15 For this we say to you in the word of Lord, that we who are alive, who remain for the coming of the Lord, will no, not precede those who became asleep.

^ACV1Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will actually not all  sleep, but we will all be transformed,


"not all sleep" means most will sleep.

Because we live in these temporary bodies that were designed to be temporary--it is the body that dies, not us.

But, you know what?  I"m not going to talk about this much any more because the people on this board don't believe it, even though Jesus told them they would never die, even though Paul told them God has prepared a body for them in heaven.   They think 'never' means 'always' and 'life' means 'death.'   So it's a waste of my time to disuss this anymore.

[WhiteWings]

Some think "sleep" means being alive.

[Molly]

Some think "sleep" means being alive.

Sleep [koimao] is a softer word for death.  It's not thanatos; it's not nekros.

It's the word Jesus used with Lazarus.

Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep.  I am going to wake him up.

The disciples literally thought Jesus meant he was sleeping.

Jesus had to tell them, Lazarus is dead.

So yes my body will be sleeping---BUT I will be alive, in heaven with Christ.




 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5



In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

-- [John 14:2,3]