Author Topic: Grave, Paradise and all these things  (Read 4650 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 04:42:39 AM »
A Golden Vessel!

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 04:43:46 AM »
THE TENT dies#Yikes## then Christ in dies withus~  no Molly No more seperation, what ever the score HE REMAINS# the LIVING HOPE IN US ALL# thats Gives me peace Molly~~ as for those who may be still trying to Qualify## then Bles em all~
He remains, of course.  What about you?
# I llive With Him as Im th  Life he gave~ we die No more~ we going into a Whole new feild Molly~Be Blessed with what you believe#
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 04:44:37 AM »
A Golden Vessel!
tThe Life within the Earthen Pot~ :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2011, 04:46:10 AM »


Deep unto deep!
Jesus unto Jesus!
There is One Life!

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2011, 04:48:06 AM »
Quote
There is One Life!

Just One , WHO IS and who in Us and we In HIM~ Death is DONE, LIFE RULES### Peace and Shalom~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2011, 04:52:36 AM »
THE TENT dies#Yikes## then Christ in dies withus~  no Molly No more seperation, what ever the score HE REMAINS# the LIVING HOPE IN US ALL# thats Gives me peace Molly~~ as for those who may be still trying to Qualify## then Bles em all~
He remains, of course.  What about you?
# I llive With Him as Im th  Life he gave~ we die No more~ we going into a Whole new feild Molly~Be Blessed with what you believe#
So you believe after your body dies you will continue to live with him?

What whole new field?

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2011, 04:59:29 AM »
heres a thought Molly, every Night you sleep is DEATH~ you maybe sleep 2 hrs or 24 hrs , ive been asleep for some ten days ~but you next conscious Moment is LIFE~so who Bloody cares? :laughing7:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2011, 05:01:40 AM »


Let the dead bury the dead!

We are only alive, in Christ!

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2011, 05:06:30 AM »
heres a thought Molly, every Night you sleep is DEATH~ you maybe sleep 2 hrs or 24 hrs , ive been asleep for some ten days ~but you next conscious Moment is LIFE~so who Bloody cares? :laughing7:
So you believe in soul sleep?

I'm just trying to figure out what you believe.  It's kind of like pulling teeth.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2011, 05:08:17 AM »


Let the dead bury the dead!

We are only alive, in Christ!
The bewitched Mind, the Illusion of the POISON of the SERPENT, Tis Magic or witchcraft= Stubborness and Idolatry~ That Poor Carnal Mind folk get so sick of hearing EVEN thou Our LORD  had HIS FLESH TORN[ for our carnality  which is the FLESHY MIND~ from HIS BODY] # HE IS LIFE THE LIFE HAS ALWAYS BEEN , THE HOPE HIDDEN IN US ALL, Blinded by the god of this world, and Not some silly spooky man Made illusion called satan~ I pray the Minds of the Blind waken to the reality of this TRUTH~~~ and GIVE US PEACE~~~ Shalom BS~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2011, 05:08:53 AM »
heres a thought Molly, every Night you sleep is DEATH~ you maybe sleep 2 hrs or 24 hrs , ive been asleep for some ten days ~but you next conscious Moment is LIFE~so who Bloody cares? :laughing7:
So you believe in soul sleep?

I'm just trying to figure out what you believe.  It's kind of like pulling teeth.
NO!
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2011, 05:13:05 AM »
Come on MMolly~Do you Like Satan Molly~ Who do you Blame?
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2011, 05:18:26 AM »
Come on MMolly~Do you Like Satan Molly~ Who do you Blame?

I"m actually wondering why it is so hard to talk to you...

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2011, 05:23:27 AM »
Come on MMolly~Do you Like Satan Molly~ Who do you Blame?

I"m actually wondering why it is so hard to talk to you...

oh Molly~ ~ Be Blessed~
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2011, 05:58:01 AM »


Shalom, Taffy.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2011, 11:22:35 AM »
Quote from: ww
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21).


well, then, I guess Jesus didn't have much power because although the Bible claims, he led captivity captive, most of the Jews to this very day do not believe in him and thus, would still be in prison according to this theory.
They got their chance but choose (to fall back to) captivity.
Same for the Gentiles. The power of Jesus was/is also for the Gentiles. Far from every Gentile is Christian.
Another thing is that the thief asked Jesus to remember him when His kingdom was come. A sign of that kingdom is that whole Israel gets converted into a paradise. IFAIK there never was anything paradise like in Israel. First Roman oppresion. Followed by muslims. Presently not much of a paradise either.

Besides of things like the thief going to paradise today, at wave sheaf, pentecost etc; the power of Jesus isn't really manifested yet. The whole world is capive by something. War and famine for example.
Throughout the whole OT Jews were captive/rejected by God. Then God showed grace. Things were good. No longer captive. Then things went downhill again. And the whole process repeats itself.
The same thing happend after Jesus died. Lots of Jews (>50% it seems),  converted to Christianity but fell back in their old habits 10-20 years later.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2011, 11:40:12 AM »
Quote
The same thing happend after Jesus died. Lots of Jews (>50% it seems),  converted to Christianity but fell back in their old habits 10-20 years later.

That's amazing. 

Read that article I posted.  It answers most of those questions.

His power was manifested first to the dead in the grave. He holds the keys to death and hell.

Another interesting thing, he offered Today with me in  Paradise only to the the one thief, not the other.

He says, Verily, I say to thee,...

Barnes notes on the Bible:

1.That the soul will exist separately from the body; for, while the thief and the Saviour would be in Paradise, their "bodies" would be on the cross or in the grave.

2. That immediately after death - the same day - the souls of the righteous will be made happy. They will feel that they are secure; they will be received among the just; and they will have the assurance of a glorious immortality.

3. That state will differ from the condition of the wicked. The promise was made to but one on the cross, and there is no evidence whatever that the other entered there.

4. It is the chief glory of this state and of heaven to be permitted to see Jesus Christ and to be with him: "Thou shalt be with me." "I desire to depart and to be with Christ," Philippians 1:23. See also Revelation 21:23; Revelation 5:9-14.



For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living [Rom 14:9]

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:53:40 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2011, 02:39:16 PM »
Hi Molly,

"but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Take away the period and you have an ongoing quote. it doesn't say when, it just says by this same Spirit that Jesus went and preached to the spirits.  It is saying, "this same Spirit that resurrected Jesus, was the same Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

CHB

It acdtually says dead in flesh alive in Spirit through which ...

So it's giving a timeline.   One thing is happening after the other.
I think it depends on how you define quickend.
If quickend means giving great spiritual insight then obviously that quickening precedes the preaching.
If the quickening is resurrection then it happend somewhere in teh middel of the timeline. Jesus did things before and after resurrection. So in that case there is no timeline at all.


Quote
There would be no point to start at the cross [dead in flesh'] and skip to 2000 years earlier in the same sentence  That's one big run on sentence.
That's not true.
If it's about a timeline it tells us the HS is working for a very long time. So giving credit to the HS.
If it isn't about the timeline it gives us just a little extra info. Just a statement they work as a team


Maybe it's about something totally else. His whole existance Jesus had a superior "spirit body".
But for a period of about 33 years that spirit was lowered into creation. Later that body was quickend by the HS into His former superior state.
IIRC Cardinal once wrote quickening means increasing "frequency" lower down into means decreasing "frequency".


Quote
Anyway, it saddens me that so many on this board do not believe that we have already received eternal life, and that life doesn't mean death.
How did you conclude that? We, at least I'm, discussing the 3 days in the grave. Or even "To-day". Revelation speaks about various resurrections. Resurrections linked to harvests.
So my thought is that those resurrections start at Wave Sheaf/Omer/Barley First Fruits. Or at  Pentecost weat harvest.
You think the thief went to paradise that same day. I think the thief had to wait 3 days until the Omer offering.
Or the thief had to wait 53 days until Pentecost.
I've been looking into the Wave Sheaf offering the last week (still not completly figured out) and there seems to have great parallels to resurrection etc.
Genesis 8:4  and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
That's Wave Sheaf day!
That's another reason I don't believe the thief went to heaven "Today". It doesn't fit in the pattern.
I'm saying this with big possibly... 370 days in the ark / 365.25 * 360 /12 = 31.28 AD
That's very near His death / Weave Sheaf day.
 :2c:

(the forum is extremely slow for me today)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3411
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2011, 03:12:03 PM »
Hi ww

   I have a pattern for you,maybe it will give some clarity.  When God set  forth to deliver the Israelites from Egypt...the original demand was

   set my people free to go 3 days journey in the wilderness to offer a sacrifice unto me....that 3 days journey ended up a total of 40 years...

   Christ ascended 40 days after His resurrection of His body..  ten days after that Holy spirit was  given when Christ was glorified.

   He cried out,Father into your hands I deliver my spirit,and breathed His last....the curtain was rent...the Holy of Holies symbolizes into the presence of God.

    we have 3,40 and ten as numbers of primary interest of the pattern.

     on the 50th[Jubilee] day post resurrection of His body,He poured out 'token' of inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven on little flock


    three days journey to offer a sacrifice pleasing unto God in the wilderness became 40


     

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2011, 03:31:09 PM »
Firstfruits relates to the resurrected Christ.  He is the firstfruits of the resurrection.  That wouldn't contradict your wave sheafs, ww  The thief was not resurrected, he was given eternal life.  There's a difference.  It was Jesus' gift to give and he gave it to the thief who believed in him.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 6:23

Offline shawn

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1584
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2011, 04:22:07 PM »
IMO, doctrines shouldn't "verify" Scripture, and Scripture shouldn't "verify" doctrine.  I don't believe it works like that.  It's about relationship...not doctrine.  When involved in relationship with Christ, a process of revelation begins.  You begin to learn of His character through individual experience.  And in that, you begin to see the Bible through spiritual eyes...understanding things that were once hidden to your natural eyes. 

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2011, 04:26:16 PM »
Quote
When involved in relationship with Christ, a process of revelation begins.  You begin to learn of His character through individual experience.  And in that, you begin to see the Bible through spiritual eyes...understanding things that were once hidden to your natural eyes. 

:icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2011, 04:28:59 PM »
Hi ww

   I have a pattern for you,maybe it will give some clarity.
I don't see how it fits in resurrection--->Pentecost :mblush:
Quote
   Christ ascended 40 days after His resurrection of His body..  ten days after that Holy spirit was  given when Christ was glorified.
Jews crossed the Jordan 40 days after Moses' death.
Quote
we have 3,40 and ten as numbers of primary interest of the pattern.
Where did you write about 10?
Quote
three days journey to offer a sacrifice pleasing unto God in the wilderness became 40
40/12 months = 3.33 years = about the length of His ministry

     
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2011, 05:16:24 PM »
IMO, doctrines shouldn't "verify" Scripture, and Scripture shouldn't "verify" doctrine.  I don't believe it works like that.  It's about relationship...not doctrine.  When involved in relationship with Christ, a process of revelation begins.  You begin to learn of His character through individual experience.  And in that, you begin to see the Bible through spiritual eyes...understanding things that were once hidden to your natural eyes.
That's doctrine for me too.
Simply put my defenition of doctrine is how the Bible i understood. How the person gets that understanding isn't of importance.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3411
Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2011, 05:21:17 PM »
He poured out Holy spirit ten days after ascension...50 days after resurrection of His body