Author Topic: Grave, Paradise and all these things  (Read 4675 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Grave, Paradise and all these things
« on: October 31, 2011, 10:34:03 AM »
James, if this turns into a fight just lock the thread.

Imo people on this forum sometimes verify the meaning of a verse by the doctrine they believe in. Imo that's the wrong approach. Verses should verify doctrine. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. And at other times they are neutral. Imo in all those cases we should accept the verse and when needed adjust the doctrine if needed.
Last time I tried to explain that it quickly turned into something nasty. So I decided to put several of my points into one post.

I'll list a few verses that very often are verified by doctrine. Please at least read this whole post before replying. There maybe you see my point by then  :winkgrin:

:dbook: not :soap: but  :bgdance:

(Luke 23:43) And Jesus said to him Truly I say to thee today thou will be with me in the paradise.

If we look at the Greek there is no interpunction. So the comma's are not inspired. If the comma is placed before today, Jesus says the thief will be in paradise on crucifixion day.
If the comma is placed after today Jesus just assures the thief he will be in paradise at some point in time. That could on crucifixion day or 3000 year later.
Also remember English Bibles are just a translation. That often means the syntax of the verse is based on the what the translators think the verse means and English grammar rules. So when a verse looks a bit odd when moving a comma isn't real proof of the comma being placed wrong because the word order in the translation is based on the understanding of the verse. And that understanding includes a comma. Greek grammar (and some ancient copies) indicate the verse verse was neutral about when exactly the thief would be in paradise.
BTW what is paradise? If the comma is after today it can't be heaven because Jesus ascended at Pentecost.
All taken into account I would say the verse is neutral about timing.
(1 Peter 3:18) Because Christ also once suffered for sins, a righteous man for unrighteous men, so that he might bring you to God. Having indeed been killed in flesh, but made alive in spirit,
(1 Peter 3:19) in which also, having gone, he preached to the spirits in prison

Do the above 2 verses mean Jesus preached to the prisoners when He was in the grave?

Imo verse 19 is just some extra information. It isn't necessarily during His days in the grave. But it could be during that period.
So again the verse is neutral about the timing.

Two other things to consider in this vere:
- What is death?
- Who are the prisoners?

But that's (possibly) proven in another verse.
I can prove that the women arrived at the tomb on monday but just as well on saturday or any other day.
We all know the views on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday crucifixion. I can prove them all right or wrong by using inclusive or exclusive counting, using the Sadducee or Pharisee way of determining certain feasts.
How long was Jesus in the grave? I can prove 72 hours and parts of a days. As short as 24 hours and 2 seconds.
The time spend in the grave can be proven with another verse. Or not? :winkgrin:

(Luke 24:13) And behold, two of them were going the same day to a village that was sixty furlongs away from Jerusalem, which name was Emmaus.
(Luke 24:14) And they conversed with each other about all these things that happened.
(Luke 24:15) And it came to pass, while they conversed and discussed, that Jesus himself also having approached, went along with them.
(Luke 24:16) But their eyes were held, not to recognize him.
(Luke 24:17) And he said to them, What are these words that ye toss back to each other, while walking and are looking sad.
(Luke 24:18) And one, whose name was Cleopas, having answered, said to him, Thou only visit Jerusalem and do not know the things that happened in it during these days?
(Luke 24:19) And he said to them, What? And they said to him, The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who became a prophet, a mighty man in work and word before God and all the people,
(Luke 24:20) and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up for condemnation of death, and crucified him.
(Luke 24:21) But we hoped that he is the man who is going to redeem Israel. But even with all these things, it brings this third day today from which time these things happened.

Again 3rd day is something that can be discussed. Is it inclusive counting? Or perhaps exclusive counting, meaning it's actually the 4th day?
Yeah.... I'm almost ready to make my point :laughing7:
In verse 17 Jesus asks what those man are talking about. The things they talked about happend a few days ago.
Usually it's assumed they spoke about the crucifixion and resurrection. But that's just part of the truth. Verse 20 shows they were also talking about the priests "delivered Him".
When did that delivering started? When He was crucified? During the arrest the previous night? I would say the arrest is an important factor in His "delivering".The difference is about 7 hours. A part of a night that should be added to the "third day" calculation.
But also look at verse 19
"The things" includes His whole ministry. We can argue how long exactly His ministry was but I thing we can agree it lasted more than 3 days.
The way I read it Cleopas said the whole ministry lasted 3 days = 3 years.

A very important question is: Did the 3 days of Cleopas refer to the sign of Jonas? ==> 3 days and 3 nights = 3 days = 3 years in the grave/earth.
Note that earth/dust represents sin. The glorified pre-existing body of Jesus was put in a "dust/earth body". Lowered into creation.
If that's true preaching to the spirits in prison possibly gets a whole different twist.
The spirits are the Jews enprisoned by, for example, the laws.
Jesus refered to living Jews as being dead several times.
(Matthew 8:22) But Jesus said to him, Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.
(Matthew 23:27) Woe to you, scholars and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because ye are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

:Peace:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:21:03 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 03:16:13 PM »
That is very interesting, I especially found Luke 23:43 interesting. Some definite food for thought, thank you WW!
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 04:07:18 PM »
The phrase, "Verily, I say unto you,"  is used about 76 times in the King James Old Testament.  It is written each time in just this way:  Verily, I say unto you, ---and then Jesus goes on to say what he has to say.

In other words, Jesus often prefaces his statements with, 'I'm telling you the truth'.



Never once does Jesus qualify his truth statement by a modifier which denotes the time he is being truthful about his statement.

In other words, never once does he say,

Verily I say unto you...
this morning
this afternoon
tonight
OR
today

Except in this one instance where ww would have you believe he decided to modify his statement meaning. 'I'm telling you the truth today'  [the implication being not true yesterday or tomorrow necessarily].

Therefore, the translators did what was most appropriate since it worked in all other 75 cases, in none of which he said Verily I say to you today,  and put the comma in the right place, rather than creating an exception to the rule for which there is no support.

Verily, I say unto you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

I'm sure that made the thief's day.  Imagine having Jesus say that to you, suffering or not.   

From a grammar point of view, the translators picked the most reasonable and consistent punctuation for that statement possible.  It was the same punctuation used in all the other 75 similar statements.  In other words, they are basing their punctuation on consistency rather than on doctrine.

To suddenly change the punctuation would indicate that YOU are the one wishing to change the doctrine, not the translators who are being entirely consistent.

Offline sheila

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 04:21:30 PM »
He tasted death for every man......that is what was portrayed on the cross.....He was tasting death for  the man hanging on his cross beside him,certainly

  the words Jesus spoke to the prisoner beside him,on the cross.is spoken to all those condemned in Adam.   One man left behind,one taken to paradise.

   patterns, two men in a bed,one taken one left behind,two women and the hand mill.

    ONE SPIRIT

    the hour is coming when all who are dead will hear the voice of the son of God and come forth from their tombs.

   that hour and that day,no-one knows but the Father in heaven... I will keep you through the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.

    that hour of trial is the judgement of death....He keeps all mankind through it.

   this body of death is our tomb, He calls all mankind forth from it..into the glorious freedom of the sons of God. The spirits of just men made perfect.

    I must contiune,today and tomorrow, and on the third day I shall be perfected

      the third day ,when Christ is perfected...is when ALL ARE RAISED....all mankind's spirit's perfected...complete new body[tombs empty]

    DEATH AND THE GRAVE DID NOT STOP HIM...NOTHING CAN....and I,if I BE LIFTED UP...SHALL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »
ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

==> After resurrection Jesus states He hasn't yet ascended.


ACV2Cor 12
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in body, I know not, or whether outside the body, I know not, God knows) such a man was caught up as far as the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man (whether in body, or whether outside the body, I know not, God knows)
4 that he was caught up into the paradise, and heard inexpressible sayings that are not permitted for a man to utter.

==> Heaven = Paradise

ACVRev 2
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the congregations. To him who overcomes, I will give him to eat from the tree of life that is in the midst of the Paradise of my God
ACVRev 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

==> The tree of life is in New Jerusalem

ACVRev 21
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.

==> New Jerusalem is in Heaven (until it descends)
"Verily I say unto you"

ACVDeut 30
18 I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish. Ye shall not prolong your days in the land where thou pass over the Jordan to go in to possess it.

ACVActs 20
26 Therefore I solemnly declare to you this day, that I am clean from the blood of all men.
Luke 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me kwhen you come into your kingdom."

Did the kingdom of Jesus start that day?


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 05:19:26 PM »
ACVJohn 20
17 Jesus says to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

==> After resurrection Jesus states He hasn't yet ascended.


ACV2Cor 12
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in body, I know not, or whether outside the body, I know not, God knows) such a man was caught up as far as the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man (whether in body, or whether outside the body, I know not, God knows)
4 that he was caught up into the paradise, and heard inexpressible sayings that are not permitted for a man to utter.

==> Heaven = Paradise

ACVRev 2
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the congregations. To him who overcomes, I will give him to eat from the tree of life that is in the midst of the Paradise of my God
ACVRev 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

==> The tree of life is in New Jerusalem

ACVRev 21
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.

==> New Jerusalem is in Heaven (until it descends)
"Verily I say unto you"

ACVDeut 30
18 I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish. Ye shall not prolong your days in the land where thou pass over the Jordan to go in to possess it.

ACVActs 20
26 Therefore I solemnly declare to you this day, that I am clean from the blood of all men.
Luke 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me kwhen you come into your kingdom."

Did the kingdom of Jesus start that day?
Luk 17:19   And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole. 


 Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 


 Luk 17:21   Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 
He is Called THE  TO DAY~ the Light\DAY [ Revelation\love] of the World~the Kingdom[ Him] comes to each man in HIS OWN order~

For the Night has Past[ Ignorance~]Jhn 11:9   Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 


 Jhn 11:10   But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. 
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 05:39:40 PM »
Deut 30:18

You are using the words of Moses in the Old Testament to prove what Jesus said in the New Testament 76 times is wrong once?

Acts 20:26

You are using the words of Paul in the New Testament to prove what Jesus said in the New Testament 76 times is wrong once?

You gotta do better than that, ww.  Find me one other time than the one you cite, where the words of Jesus are not Verily, I say unto you, <----comma

Then you will have at least two instances on your side, and it won't look so hopelessly contrived.

I am just looking at this from the point of view of grammatical consistency--and the translators are completely consistent with the words of Jesus every time. 

Verily, I say unto you, .......

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2011, 05:52:55 PM »

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
--Mat 4:17



Repent--turn your head in another direction, think differently,
and you will see the kingdom is right next to you.


"is at hand"

G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.





Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2011, 06:29:07 PM »
Deut 30:18

You are using the words of Moses in the Old Testament to prove what Jesus said in the New Testament 76 times is wrong once?
Jesus didn't say anything wrong. Neither did Moses. Both were Jewish men using Jewish idioms.
Not all scholar noticed that but for example the CLV, Green, Lamsa, Diaglot, EBR,  and Bulliger/Companion translations put the comma elsewhere.
I can scan Bulligers commentary on punctuation and Luke 23:43 if you like to read it.

Quote
Acts 20:26

You are using the words of Paul in the New Testament to prove what Jesus said in the New Testament 76 times is wrong once?
Neither Paul or Jesus said something wrong.



Quote
You gotta do better than that, ww.  Find me one other time than the one you cite, where the words of Jesus are not Verily, I say unto you, <----comma
In those other verses the comma isn't inspired either. The whole thing is that in many cases a wrongly placed comma just makes a verse a bit odd while the meaning stays the same.



Quote
Then you will have at least two instances on your side, and it won't look so hopelessly contrived.

I am just looking at this from the point of view of grammatical consistency--and the translators are completely consistent with the words of Jesus every time. 
If that's true then read the links I gave you in the other thread. But there you answered something similar to "I don't have the time to study Greek/Hebrew"
The Bullinger article is about grammer too.

About being contrived; it might not look that way if the proper grammer rules are applied.
It's not just about translating consistently (which is good) but also the knowledge of what's translated.
It's a science that makes progress. In the times of for example KJV there were not that much documents. But since then lots of works (not just religious ones) from that time have been found. Scholars learn from that.

But that one verse was just 1 point from 2 posts.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 06:37:24 PM »

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
--Mat 4:17



Repent--turn your head in another direction, think differently,
and you will see the kingdom is right next to you.


"is at hand"

G1448
ἐγγίζω
eggizō
eng-id'-zo
From G1451; to make near, that is, (reflexively) approach: - approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.
At hand, yes. But when?

If His kingdom started that day king David wasn't part of it.

ACVActs 2
29 Men, brothers, being permitted to speak to you with openness about the patriarch David, that he both perished and was buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 07:00:39 PM »
Psa 139:8   If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].   :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 07:13:56 PM »
Quote from: ww
At hand, yes. But when?


Now.

"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

-Luke 11:20

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 07:34:38 PM »
The Comma of Luke 23:43


Did Jesus Christ tell the thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise that very day, or did he say on that day, that they would be together in Paradise? It has been argued that the Greek text is ambiguous on this point, and that the position of the comma (before or after the word "today") determines the sense of Christ's statement.

Of course, no one will doubt that commas were introduced into the manuscripts centuries after the authors of the New Testament books had died and that such commas are therefore not authoritative. And there is the question of context. No one can dispute the fact that Jesus and the criminal were dying on the cross, and that their death would be followed by a burial and, in Jesus' case, by a resurrection from the dead three days later.

It has been argued that, since the context does not allow the conclusion that anyone entered Paradise on that day, and since the position of the comma lacks authority, the punctuation "Today you shall be with me in paradise" would leave the reader with a discrepancy between what had been promised and what actually happened. On the other hand, the alternative punctuation ("Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise") has been endorsed as free from such problems since it is not stated when they would be in Paradise.

The presupposition behind the two possibilities is in the claim that the Greek text is ambiguous without the comma. Thus, one is obligated to go deeper into the matter to ascertain if that presupposition is legitimate.

Is the Greek text ambiguous?

The first point to note is that Jesus was communicating with the thief verbally. In any language, people converse without commas, semicolons, question marks or exclamation marks. In fact, writers employ such devices only because they believe that the spoken message is clearer and want to approximate it. It is not true, therefore, that what Jesus said was ambiguous. The introduction of the commas into the manuscripts (centuries later) is irrelevant.

One may be tempted to object by saying that it is the position of the written comma that reveals what Christ really said. This is precisely what is not true of the passage in question. The author of the Gospel was not present at the crucifixion to hear Christ's comment personally. Christ's comment was recorded from the oral tradition of the disciples. This leads us to the second point: that the oral tradition had preserved this comment in a particular form, with the spoken emphasis already built into it.

Commas have no syntactical value in New Testament Greek. If commas are later introduced by an editor, they would serve only to make the text easier to read —- not to clarify the meaning. Commas, in any edition of the Greek New Testament, are intended only as a help to the reader, not as a means of safeguarding the correct understanding of a passage.

In view of the above details, the presupposition that the text of Luke 23:43 is ambiguous without the comma is not legitimate.

The self-explanatory verse

Luke 23:43 is self-explanatory, first, because of its context, and second, because of its syntactical structure.

First, the context includes the continuous tense elege (was saying) with reference to the comment of each thief. Neither simply "said" (made a one-time statement of) what he had in mind. The first man (v. 39) was engaging in continuous derision, while the other was approaching Christ (not once, but over a period of time) in sincere supplication (v. 42). The latter's plea was not a fleeting thought that had crossed his mind. It was a sincere and persistent request, obviously requiring all the energy he could muster in the circumstances.

One criminal's attitude and comments produced blasphemy, culminating in the thought "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us," while the other's produced a rebuke of the first man's wrong attitude and a penitent submission summed up in the thought, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

The scene is dramatic, to say the least. It is not easy for a dying man to believe that he can be saved by the helpless individual being crucified next to him. The depth of his conviction becomes more real to us when we bring to mind that others had failed to believe in Jesus, even while he was energetically performing miracles in their midst! The thief's repentant request shows that he had already accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah, even in a crucified state.

Second, the malefactor did not say, "when you come into your kingdom." He said, "when you come in (Greek en) your kingdom." On the surface, it appears to be a minor difference, but the meaning of this statement is "when you come with glory and power" —- which he will do when he returns. The correct reading was missed by the King James translators, but the revisers noted it (see RSV —- "when you come in your kingly power").

The Latin Vulgate rendering, "in regnum tuum" (to your kingdom) and the King James, "into thy kingdom," give the impression that the reference is to Christ's return to heaven after the resurrection —- hence the common misunderstanding. No such meaning is entailed in the Greek text. The reading of the Latin Vulgate and that of the King James Version exceed the limits of the Greek text on this point. The malefactor's request was that he might be remembered, not on that day, but at the time when Christ would return in the power and glory of his kingdom.

Christ's reply

Christ's reply begins with the word "amen" (verily). Whenever this construction is chosen in the New Testament, it indicates that something emphatic is to follow.

For example, in Matthew 5:18, Christ said: "Amen I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This construction enables Jesus to move to the diametrically opposite position. His audience had thought that he was doing away with the law. According to their thought, Christ's new statement would be false. For that reason, he began with the assuring tone of "amen" (verily). Christ's intent was to surprise his audience —- just as we might do today by saying something like, "You may find this difficult to believe, but it is true, nevertheless."

Thus the word "amen" (verily) at the beginning of the first phrase (Verily I say unto you) announces that a surprising truth is about to be revealed, while the word "today," at the start of the next phrase (today you will be...), is the unexpected, complementary emphasis —- the truth Christ had promised. In effect, Christ was saying, "It is not at all a case of my remembering you or that you need to wait for some future time! You will be with me, as of today."

The reading "Verily I say unto you today" not only contains a redundancy ("I say" is in the present tense already —- making "today" redundant), it destroys the natural force of these words.

The question of Paradise

Did Christ and the thief go to Paradise on that day? In order to answer the question, we need to be reminded that some Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6, 8). If a Pharisee were asked how the dead are raised (the very question that arose later in Corinth, cf. 1 Cor. 15:35), he would have said that, when righteous people die, they go to a special place where they await their resurrection. This place is called by various names. One name is "Paradise." Another is "the Bosom of Abraham."

Jewish tradition acknowledged all the elements used in Christ's parable. The poor man was carried by the angels to the Bosom of Abraham (cf. Luke 16:22 and Ketubot 104a). The Bosom of Abraham is mentioned in the writings of the intertestamental period (4 Maccabees 13:17) and in Qiddusin 72b. Most important, Abraham is "designated as he who receives...the penitent into Paradise" (Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, II, p. 280; see also `Erubin 19a).

In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it was Lazarus who found himself in the special place (the Bosom of Abraham). To say that a dead person was in that place was the same as saying that he was righteous, because only the righteous went to Paradise to wait with Abraham.

Of course, there is nothing in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to indicate more than the fact that Jesus was using the language of the Jews to convey a thought to them —- that, contrary to their expectations, it was the poor man that was righteous. One does not necessarily subscribe to a belief simply by using the language of the day. Otherwise we would not be able to make even the most common references —- for example, to the days of the week (Sun-day, Moon-day, Mars-day, etc.). Similarly, the terms "lunatic," "Aphrodisiac," "enthusiast," etc., all contain claims educated people do not subscribe to; even so, they are freely used by all. Jesus also made use of the language of his day.

One should also keep in mind that this use of "Paradise" does not define all its appearances in the Bible. The same term is used for the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:15 and 3:23, LXX), for the plains of Jordan (Gen. 13:10, LXX), for the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4), and for God's kingdom (Rev. 2:7).

In the case of the thief on the cross, Jesus recognized the man's repentant attitude and his firm conviction that Jesus, although dying on the cross, was the prophesied Messiah. He heard the malefactor's plea for remembrance at the time when he, even as a companion in death, would return in power and glory as a King, and told the man that his request was as good as done. Obviously, the malefactor believed that he could be resurrected if Christ would only remember him. Therefore, Christ assured him of the surprising truth that, even on that very day, he would be counted among the righteous in Paradise, awaiting the resurrection with them.

Did Christ and the malefactor, then, go to Paradise on that day? We must say that, in light of the popular notion and the context explained above, they clearly did, even though they literally were in the grave. The language is picturesque. It is beautiful. Above all, it conveys the best possible news that the repentant criminal could have hoped to hear.

http://www.gci.org/bible/luke/comma

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 08:15:36 PM »
43 To day. Connect this
with "I say", to emphasize
the solemnity of the
occasion; not with "shalt
thou be". See the
Hebraism in note on Deut.
4:26. As to the
punctuation, see
Ap.94.V.i.3; and to the whole clause, see Ap.173.

http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append173.html
173.  "TO-DAY" (Luke 23:43).



The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rests wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century, and then it is only a dot (in the middle of the line) separating each word.  See Ap. 94.V. i..3.

The Verb "to say", when followed by hoti, introduces the ipsissima verba of what is said;  and answers to our quotation marks.  So here (in Luke 23:43), in the absence of hoti = "that", there may be a doubt as to the actual words included in the dependent clause.  But the doubt is resolved (1) by the common Hebrew idiom, "I say unto thee this day", which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis (See note on Deut. 4:26);  as well as (2) by the usage observable in other passages where the verb is connected with the Gr. semeron = to-day.

1. With hoti : --

Mark 14:30 :  "Verily I say unto thee, that (hoti) 'this day ... thou shalt deny me thrice.' "
Luke 4:21 :  "And He began to say unto them, that (hoti) 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.' "
Luke 5:26 :  "Saying (hoti =that), 'We have seen strange things to-day.' "
Luke 19:9 :  "Jesus said unto him that (hoti), this day is salvation come into this house.' "
For other examples of the verb "to say", followed by hoti, but not connected with semeron (to-day), see Matt. 14:26;  16:18;  21:3;  26:34;  27:47;   Mark 1:40;  6:14, 15, 18, 35;  9:26;  14:25.  Luke 4:24, 41;  15:27;  17:10;  19:7.

2. Without hoti : --

On the other hand, in the absence of hoti (= that), the relation of the word "to-day" must be determined by the context.

Luke 22:34 :  "And He said, 'I tell thee, Peter, in no wise shall a cock crow to-day before thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest Me.' "  Here the word "to-day" is connected with the verb "crow", because the context requires it.  Compare Heb. 4:7.

It is the same in Luke 23:43 :  "And Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say unto thee to-day [or this day (*1), when, though they were about to die, this man had expressed so great faith in Messiah's coming Kingdom, and therefore in the Lord's resurrection to be its King -- now, under such solemn circumstances] thou shalt be, with Me, in Paradise.' "  For when Messiah shall reign His Kingdom will convert the promised land into a Paradise.  Read Isa. 35, and see Note on Ecc. 2:5.

We must notice also the Article before "Paradise".  It is "THE Paradise", viz. the paradise of which the prophets tell in such glowing language, when the Lord shall come in His Kingdom.  See Ps. 67:4, 6;  72:6, 7, 16, 17.  Isa. 4:2;  30:23, 24;  35:1, 2, 5, 6;  41:18, 20.  Jer. 31:5, 12.  Ezek. 34:25-27;  36:29, 30;  47:8, 9, 12.  Hos. 2:18, 21, 22.  Joel 3:18.  Amos 9:13-15.  Zech. 8:12.

It has no connexion with Babylonian, Jewish and Romish tradition, but is a direct answer to the malefactor's prayer.   His prayer referred to the Lord's coming and His Kingdom;  and, if the Lord's answer was direct, the promise must have referred to that coming and to that Kingdom, and not to anything that was to happen on that day on which the words were being spo 338 ken.

It is alleged that the Lord's promise was a reply to the man's thought;  but this is an assumption for which no justification can be found.  Moreover, how can we know what his thought was, except by the words he uttered? The Lewis Codex of the Syrian N.T. reads in v. 39 :  "save Thyself and us to-day".  So the Lord's word "to-day" may have reference to the revilings of the one, as well as to the request of the other.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*1)  It is rendered "to-day" eighteen times in the Gospels, Hebrews and James;  but "this day" twenty-three times (five times in Matthew;  once in Mark;  four times in Luke;  nine times in Acts;  once in Romans;  twice in 2Corinthians;  and once in Hebrews).


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 08:21:34 PM »
As a summary: The preaching was done during His life. The prisoners are Israel. (captives of the law?)

First, it seems very unlikely that Peter is saying that Jesus was "made alive" before the making alive of the resurrection. It is much more likely that "having been made alive by the Spirit" refers to the resurrection (cf. Romans 1:3-4).  The verb zōopoieō is used most often in the New Testament to speak of the actual resurrection of believers (John 5:21; Rom. 4:17; 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:22, 36).
The verb poreuomai, which is used for "having gone" in verse 19, is used in verse 22 (and in Acts 1:10-11) for the ascension. That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison. It would still be puzzling (there is nothing to correlate it with), but it would not require an un-Jewish "intermediate state" between death and resurrection.
However, Peter (the apostle) says that in the same Spirit by which he was raised from the dead Jesus also went to "proclaim to the spirits in prison". If we take poreutheis as a reference not to the ascension but simply to Jesus' ministry to Israel "in the Spirit", we would then only have to understand the allusion to Noah figuratively. Peter draws an analogy between the world before the destruction of the flood, when God's patience (makrothumia) with sin had been exhausted, from which a few escaped by the ark, and "unrighteous" Israel before the judgment and destruction of AD 70, from which a few were saved by the antitype of baptism.
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
It is basically the same argument that Jesus makes in Matthew 24:37-38 (= Lk. 17:26-27): just as the world was taken by surprise by the judgment of the flood, from which only Noah and his family were saved, so Israel will be taken by surprise by the judgment of the coming war, from which only a few will be saved. Paul upbraids the Jews for presuming on God's patience (makrothumia), which was meant to lead them to repentance (Rom. 2:4); and he asserts in Romans 9:22 that God's patience (makrothumia) has run out with Israel.

More: http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection


In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: "…the Spirit, by whom…" (v. 18-19). ["My Spirit" (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).] Other passages confirm that Jesus was said to do things that He actually did through the instrumentality of others (John 4:1-2; Ephesians 2:17). Nathan charged King David: "You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword" (2 Samuel 12:9), when, in fact, David had ordered it done by another. Elijah accused Ahab of killing Naboth, using the words, "Have you murdered and also taken possession?" (1 Kings 21:19), even though his wife, Jezebel, arranged for two other men to accomplish the evil action. Paul said Jesus preached peace to the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:17), when, in fact, Jesus did so through others, since He, Himself, already had returned to heaven when the first Gentiles heard the Gospel (Acts 15:7). So the Bible frequently refers to someone doing something that he, in fact, did through the agency of another person.
In fact, within the book of 1 Peter itself, Peter already had made reference to the fact that the Spirit "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:11). But it was the prophets who did the actual speaking (vs. 10). Then, again in chapter 4, Peter stated that "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6). Here were individuals who had the Gospel preached to them while they were alive ("in the flesh"), and who responded favorably by becoming Christians. But then they were "judged according to men in the flesh," i.e., they were treated harshly and condemned to martyrdom by their contemporaries. At the time Peter was writing, they were "dead," i.e., deceased and departed from the Earth. But Peter said they "live according to God in the spirit," i.e., they were alive and well in spirit form in the hadean realm in God's good graces.

More: http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=10&article=851
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 08:45:22 PM »
Quote from: ww
So Jesus did not go in the spirit and proclaim to the generation of humanity before the flood. He went in the power of the Spirit that would later raise him to life to proclaim to a generation of Jews which was like the generation of humanity before the flood.
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21).


well, then, I guess Jesus didn't have much power because although the Bible claims, he led captivity captive, most of the Jews to this very day do not believe in him and thus, would still be in prison according to this theory.

In fact, Jesus specifically told the Jewish Pharisees and Sadducees the opposite, Behold, I leave your house desolate...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 08:48:30 PM by Molly »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 11:14:21 PM »
He tasted death for every man......that is what was portrayed on the cross.....He was tasting death for  the man hanging on his cross beside him,certainly

  the words Jesus spoke to the prisoner beside him,on the cross.is spoken to all those condemned in Adam.   One man left behind,one taken to paradise.

   patterns, two men in a bed,one taken one left behind,two women and the hand mill.

    ONE SPIRIT

    the hour is coming when all who are dead will hear the voice of the son of God and come forth from their tombs.

   that hour and that day,no-one knows but the Father in heaven... I will keep you through the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.

    that hour of trial is the judgement of death....He keeps all mankind through it.

   this body of death is our tomb, He calls all mankind forth from it..into the glorious freedom of the sons of God. The spirits of just men made perfect.

    I must contiune,today and tomorrow, and on the third day I shall be perfected

      the third day ,when Christ is perfected...is when ALL ARE RAISED....all mankind's spirit's perfected...complete new body[tombs empty]

    DEATH AND THE GRAVE DID NOT STOP HIM...NOTHING CAN....and I,if I BE LIFTED UP...SHALL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME
:icon_flower:
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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline CHB

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 01:37:00 AM »
(1Peter 3:18-20)  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust , that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

The above verses say that Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison. When did he do this? The next verse tells us.

Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.  If the spirits were being disobedient in the days of Noah, why would Christ wait 2000 years to preach to them?

Just my observation.

CHB   

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 01:44:42 AM »
(1Peter 3:18-20)  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust , that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

The above verses say that Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison. When did he do this? The next verse tells us.

Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.  If the spirits were being disobedient in the days of Noah, why would Christ wait 2000 years to preach to them?

Just my observation.

CHB   
seems Noah=Rest was Righteous in  his generations~ could this be a a Little symbolism Maybe? :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 01:47:55 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2011, 02:14:16 AM »
(1Peter 3:18-20)  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust , that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

The above verses say that Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison. When did he do this? The next verse tells us.

Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Christ went in Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.  If the spirits were being disobedient in the days of Noah, why would Christ wait 2000 years to preach to them?

Just my observation.

CHB   
That verse doesn't tell us when, it tells us who.

What tells us when is the context of put to death in the flesh [but alive by the Spirit]  This tells us Christ preached to these spirits after he was put to death in the flesh.  It also tells us that even though he was put to death in the flesh, he was alive in the Spirit.

Offline CHB

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2011, 03:15:00 AM »
Hi Molly,

"but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Take away the period and you have an ongoing quote. it doesn't say when in this verse. It just says by this same Spirit that Jesus went and preached to the spirits.  It is saying, "this same Spirit that resurrected Jesus, was the same Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

It is verse 20 that speaks as to when this happened. It plainly says when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared.


CHB

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:22:27 AM by CHB »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2011, 03:17:57 AM »
Hi Molly,

"but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Take away the period and you have an ongoing quote. it doesn't say when, it just says by this same Spirit that Jesus went and preached to the spirits.  It is saying, "this same Spirit that resurrected Jesus, was the same Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

CHB
:icon_flower:~
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:21:40 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2011, 03:30:25 AM »
Hi Molly,

"but quickened by the Spirit.  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Take away the period and you have an ongoing quote. it doesn't say when, it just says by this same Spirit that Jesus went and preached to the spirits.  It is saying, "this same Spirit that resurrected Jesus, was the same Spirit by which he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

CHB

It acdtually says dead in flesh alive in Spirit through which ...

So it's giving a timeline.   One thing is happening after the other.   There would be no point to start at the cross [dead in flesh'] and skip to 2000 years earlier in the same sentence  That's one big run on sentence.

Jesus is all over the OT.  Why pick one incident such as this to reference in the OT if that's what it was.



Anyway, it saddens me that so many on this board do not believe that we have already received eternal life, and that life doesn't mean death.

You don't even seem to believe that Jesus, the resurrection and the life, was still alive in the grave.

But, that's not up to me.




Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:36:48 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2011, 03:37:28 AM »
Nothing about a grave here....Mat 12:40  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Grave, Paradise and all these things
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2011, 03:39:50 AM »
Quote
Anyway, it saddens me that so many on this board do not believe that we have already received eternal life, and that life doesn't mean death.

You don't even seem to believe that Jesus, the resurrection and the life, was still alive in the grave.


To Know Him is Life eternal#~to Know Him is to LOVE your Brother\Enemies as yourself~ for we are ONE , SEE Christ in ALL MEN} tis as simple as that~which doesnt MEAN we shall always Agree~ Shalom~
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:44:18 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.