Author Topic: God has already Determined the Next President  (Read 2324 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2008, 04:56:35 PM »
Of course I am aware of that, and I am also aware that we have a perfect system that was set up for us by our Constitution,
You have no perfect system.
The first and last perfect system will be setup by Jesus. Not by man.

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Where does Jesus say to torture people [the Inquisition], burn witches, wage war, kill people you don't like, suppress the rights of citizens

Nowhere.   So if you see a religious organization supporting such things, know that they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and if you see governments supporting such things, know the same.?
I 100% agree with that. I also believe those that have written your constitution haven't slept for ages because the wanted to get it super perfect.
But menkind wrecked all good intentions.
And your founders where scared of that too. Why? Well simply because in a perfect world you need no laws for any crime whatsover.
Do you think if earth was populated by 6 biljon Jesus' there would be a need for a law against theft and murder?



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I know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.
We don't have a history of a king or a parliament or feudal lords.  We are a young country compared to Europe and have the mindset that everyone is equal.    This is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD.
Sure. You have a new country. And yes Europe has a very voilent history. And still is far from perfect.
This will raise your bloodpresse I fear but really the US system isn't that different. When all blabla is gone after elections in the US and Europe then power is always concentrated in (nearly) one spot.

Get out your gun now Molly!
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This is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD
Sounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Taffy

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2008, 05:00:01 PM »
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But now, it seems to me that this happens within each person at some point in their lives, or for some, beyond the grave in the next age.

Yes, it is a kingdom within, but doesn't the tree produce fruit according to its type?  And, if you were to suddenly turn and see Jesus in all directions, wouldn't it be a glorious world?   He is here now, and someday, the mountain of God will fill the whole world.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?


 Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

I see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


 Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


 Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2008, 05:12:25 PM »
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Sounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell

Not exactly, since communism like all systems of satan, perverts the things of God.  If you've read Orwell, then you know that all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others in the communist system.  That's the perversion.  The king is more equal, the dictator is more equal, the totalitarian state is more equal.

Marx is a liar,just like satan.

Compare that to Thomas Jefferson--

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I have a God given right to Life, to Liberty, and to the pursuit of Happiness.  My rights cannot be alienated because they are God given.  And, they are spelled out in the Bill of Rights.  That's freedom.

You and I are different but equal, even within the body of Christ.



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When all blabla is gone after elections in the US and Europe then power is always concentrated in (nearly) one spot.

Again, to the extent that is true (and I agree with you), it is a perversion of our system.  And all it would take is for everyone to know the truth and wake up out of their trance to reverse that.

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You have no perfect system.
The first and last perfect system will be setup by Jesus. Not by man.

We have the most perfect system this side of Christ, then, if only people knew what it is.  [Hint:it's not screaming and cheering and suspending all rational thought in the presence of a demagogue.  They already tried that with Hitler.]

I happen to believe our Founders were inspired by God.


« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 05:33:57 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2008, 05:37:23 PM »
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Sounds like Communism. EEKS
Not the religious part but all are equal.
Sounds like a dream until a maniak like Stalin assumed he was more equal.
=> Animal Farm by George Orwell

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Not exactly, since communism like all systems of satan, perverts the things of God.  If you've read Orwell, then you know that all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others in the communist system.
I did read the book, Molly, that's why I used the rather famous 'more equal' quote


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That's the perversion.  The king is more equal, the dictator is more equal, the totalitarian state is more equal.
True.
You seem to have read Animal Farm. Then you understand what I tried to explain in earlier message.
The farm=system was corrupt. The farmer was a dictator. Change in power. All became equal for a short while. All animals had a voice.
The orginal system was great and to the satifaction of all. Almost all. The pigs went greedy and introduced the concept 'more equal' (isn't a president more equal?) The pigs lived in the farmers house and the other animals in the cold. Things got corrupter everyday until the pigs started to sell the other animals to the meat factory.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

So to summarize.
The US constitution (like some others) is near perfect good seed. But unfortunately the seed is/got polluted by weed.
Sounds almost Biblical  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2008, 05:48:02 PM »
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I see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth

God gives us the law so that as long as we are filled with dead man's bones we will still know the right thing to do.  And, guess what--the law includes mercy.



23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


--Mat 23



Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2008, 05:57:36 PM »
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The orginal system was great and to the satifaction of all. Almost all. The pigs went greedy and introduced the concept 'more equal' (isn't a president more equal?) The pigs lived in the farmers house and the other animals in the cold. Things got corrupter everyday until the pigs started to sell the other animals to the meat factory.

The 'more equal' is built into the system of communism.  Do you think Marx, Trotsky, Stalin, and Lenin were just an accident of history?  Just a few 'greedy pigs'?  Of course not, it was always planned to come out exactly the way it happened. Study history.

Our president is not 'more equal.'  He is just the  bureaucrat in charge of the executive  branch of our government.  And he is required to take an oath to our Constitution, with his hand on the Bible,  even if he is secretly crossing his fingers behind his back.


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But unfortunately the seed is/got polluted by weed.
Sounds almost Biblical 

It is. :thumbsup:


« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:07:51 PM by Molly »

Offline Taffy

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2008, 06:13:56 PM »
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I see such fruit as acts of MERCY and NOT judgment Molly, likened to the Above ...Judgment Brought DEATH , NOT the LIFE it speaks of....HE being such Fruit IN US...we being likened to the Good samaritan , who shows Mercy and Not Judgment as those who passed Him By on THE OTHER SIDE....only TWO sides MOLLY,..LAW versus Grace and Truth



23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


--Mat 23



Indeed MOLLY, for first came the LAW,The LAW points To WHO is the MAGNIFICATION of it Molly...lest we keep the saturday sabbath all over...,tis for mine ,the spiritual which it points to,,but first the natural....
HE who is the WEIGHTieR matter, speaks of RIGHTEOUS judgment WHICH Brings LIFE, Mercy\compassion ( FAITH.)
we toO exercise RIGHTEOUS\TRUE JUDGMENT, which dear one INCLUDES MERCY.

Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

 Those pharisees Judge after the Flesh, that is ,by appearance...

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

men are AFTER THE FLESH molly, that is ,ones Herat and Mind being enmity

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; "I judge no man".

again when one is spirit , born within, NO flesh JUDGES US....

1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man

 2Samuel 2:22 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.


Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, AS your Father also is merciful.


which MOLLY for mine, aligns up Very MUCH to the WORDS of our LORD ,noted in  last POST
 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:28:58 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2008, 11:37:46 PM »
There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better for worse as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given to him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried. Not for nothing one face, one character, one fact makes much impression on him, and another none. This sculpture in the memory is not without preéstablishcd harmony. The eye was placed where one ray should fall, that it might testify of that particular ray. We but half express ourselves, and are ashamed of that divine idea which each of us represents. It may be safely trusted as proportionate and of good issues, so it be faithfully imparted, but God will not have his work made manifest by cowards.

--Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

martincisneros

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2008, 01:57:58 AM »
P.S.  My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God?  (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my  :2c:).  God's blessing, James.
All I'll say is that I've known for close to 3 years who was going to get elected in '08.  A lot of prophetic voices were saying who the next President would be since about '05 and '06.  I'm sure some of those folks are updating their websites with their version of "told ya! and you can relive it with the DVD of that meeting for your tax deductible donation of $25!"  I'm just waiting to see everybody and their dog with that on their webpage over this one. :laughing7:  And it'll be for real 99% of the time 'cause I was either in the meetings, in contact with them, or watching it on TBN, Church Channel, DayStar, or wherever.  I'll send you some links if they do 'cause there were a lot of folks on TBN and all over the place getting a Word about this.  The ol' "prophesy in part" probably still applies as far as just because somebody knew who'd get elected, that doesn't mean they've already been a fly on the wall about all that'll happen.  There's a Scripture about God doing nothing unless He reveals it by His prophets.  So, I figure if it came out in my interpretation of tongues, in the tongues and interpretation of tongues of others, and as Words of Wisdom from others, then for whatever reason God would be particularly behind this particular election.  Literally, though, they came out of the wood work over the last 18 months to 3 years saying "who" or describing him in completely unmistakable terms.  I'm waiting on who's going to be the first rascal to say that just because they were right about who'd be President, therefore they're authorities on December 21st, 2012.

albertx46

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2008, 02:59:37 PM »
He will transfuse change to the States as well as the world outside of America. He made a cordially liberal statement in his acceptance speech. Good job, Mr President.

Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2008, 08:17:55 PM »
Thanks Martin.  I've posted twice regarding his reported statements of wishing to remove all limits on abortion, as well as the likelihood that he'll appoint 2 abortion-friendly judges during his term.  No response to this from anyone.  So if he's a good thing (and maybe he is, I don't know), where does this fit in with his "goodness"?  Scripture speaks against shedding innocent blood, and history indicates the society that murders its children is doomed to failure. I realize this isn't the only issue, he's not the only one that's abortion-friendly, much innocent blood is shed in many ways, etc., so I'm not blindly viewing this....just curious and concerned about the apparent extremely pro-abortion issue.  Martin, specifically, maybe you've heard a word on how God will work this out?  Because on the surface, IMO, it sure doesn't look good wrt this issue. Thoughts? James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2008, 08:36:54 PM »
P.S.  My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God?  (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my  :2c:).  God's blessing, James.
All I'll say is that I've known for close to 3 years who was going to get elected in '08.  A lot of prophetic voices were saying who the next President would be since about '05 and '06.  I'm sure some of those folks are updating their websites with their version of "told ya! and you can relive it with the DVD of that meeting for your tax deductible donation of $25!"  I'm just waiting to see everybody and their dog with that on their webpage over this one. :laughing7:  And it'll be for real 99% of the time 'cause I was either in the meetings, in contact with them, or watching it on TBN, Church Channel, DayStar, or wherever.  I'll send you some links if they do 'cause there were a lot of folks on TBN and all over the place getting a Word about this.  The ol' "prophesy in part" probably still applies as far as just because somebody knew who'd get elected, that doesn't mean they've already been a fly on the wall about all that'll happen.  There's a Scripture about God doing nothing unless He reveals it by His prophets.  So, I figure if it came out in my interpretation of tongues, in the tongues and interpretation of tongues of others, and as Words of Wisdom from others, then for whatever reason God would be particularly behind this particular election.  Literally, though, they came out of the wood work over the last 18 months to 3 years saying "who" or describing him in completely unmistakable terms.  I'm waiting on who's going to be the first rascal to say that just because they were right about who'd be President, therefore they're authorities on December 21st, 2012.
They said what in 2005?  Obama would be the next president?  Nobody even knew who he was in 2005.

That said, it would have been an easy guess in the last year, as he rose to stardom quickly, just like the Beatles.

Or was there a more general prophecy?

martincisneros

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2008, 10:32:04 PM »
Thanks Martin.  I've posted twice regarding his reported statements of wishing to remove all limits on abortion, as well as the likelihood that he'll appoint 2 abortion-friendly judges during his term.  No response to this from anyone.  So if he's a good thing (and maybe he is, I don't know), where does this fit in with his "goodness"?  Scripture speaks against shedding innocent blood, and history indicates the society that murders its children is doomed to failure. I realize this isn't the only issue, he's not the only one that's abortion-friendly, much innocent blood is shed in many ways, etc., so I'm not blindly viewing this....just curious and concerned about the apparent extremely pro-abortion issue.  Martin, specifically, maybe you've heard a word on how God will work this out?  Because on the surface, IMO, it sure doesn't look good wrt this issue. Thoughts? James.
One of the things that I'm not liking is that the news media is saying that Obama is pro- stem cell research.  Anyone with half a brain is pro- stem cell research.  The news media seems like they're still not up to speed on the differences between adult stem cell research, embryonic stem cell research, and the differences between embryonic stem cell research such as the difference between using aborted fetuses or simply using umbilical chord blood or getting the stem cells from infants in other ways since they very likely run a lot of tests at hospitals on newborns anyway.  The tiniest prick of the inside of the nose that wouldn't draw more than one or two drops of blood from the baby would likely water the eyes and get a cry over the watery eyes and funky feeling from anybody messing with your nose, but it would also give them thousands of embryonic stem cells.  And there's a lot of other ways of getting the stem cells and not just through the nose.  Legislation for embryonic stem cell research doesn't necessitate a free for all on abortions, which by the way we've already had in case anybody hasn't noticed.  All of the big cures that have happened thus far have been with adult stem cells.

The abortion issue is once and for all resolved with a constitutional amendment, but Christians have lacked the genuine interest in pursuing it.  So, there's an enormous amount of hypocrisy among Christians on the abortion issue.  The Supreme Court renders it's opinions and they're only opinions.  A constitutional amendment would shut them down on that issue.

One of the things that's been emerging has been a consensus among a number of prophetic voices that there would be a generation on earth that was cancer free.  So, either mainstream doctors will stop fighting against God's methods and aloe, selenium, mangosteen, and graviola will come into greater usage, along with anything else that God would bring to light, or we're going to have healthier food and safer technology that's not moment by moment chipping away at people's health.  But we can't totally discount the possible stem cell research connection on this.  The life of the flesh is in the blood.
They said what in 2005?  Obama would be the next president?  Nobody even knew who he was in 2005.
The Holy Spirit knew who Barack was. :Sparkletooth:  And yes, the details were there.  But as Jesus told Nathanael....

I'm not discounting the possibility of judgment out of all of this, but everything's sorta already been in severe judgment with half of the companies in this country and in many others going bankrupt.  Some are even dogmatically expecting or creating with their expectation and preaching "Daniel's 70th week."  It could get uglier still during this transition period that precedes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that begins the millenium.  I've heard that some countries have a religious mark that's similar to the dot on the head worn by people in India, but where among the Muslims that have something similar, you're not able to buy, sell, or hold a job without that.  I don't know how serious to take the reports I've heard over the years of that going on, and whether or not they actually take it that far.  But if that were the case, then your most dogmatic literalists and futurists on the book of Revelation would have to allow that we're somewhere between the 9th and 13th chapters of the book of Revelation in the way that they'd understand it. 

I'm more interested in what God's doing than in what the devil is doing or will allegedly do.  That's one of the philosophical problems with premillenialism that it uniquely places one in the position of heralding the coming of AntiChrist instead of heralding the coming of Christ.  Whether anyone would regard themselves as a premillenialist or not, if there's any tendency with anyone to go all chicken little with "the devil is coming, the devil is coming!  The devil is coming!!!!" I'd sincerely ask people like that to re-evaluate whose side they're on!  God has a whole lot more going on and He's doing a whole lot more, including a whole lot more exciting things, and in the end, He's all in all.  Conservative radio commentators, even if they don't have the book of Revelation in front of them, they wind up "going there" most of the time with how bad things are supposedly going to get.  To me, that's rapidly becoming the definition of "Conservatism" to where I'm almost ready to wear the label of a liberal, with due reverence to Christ, if it's between genuine Gospel optimism and that religious "it's all going to Hell" nonsense that's not remotely in tune with what I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit.  2Corinthians 9 speaks of liberality and not all of this other stuff about God needing the world to suffer because the sufferings of Christ weren't sufficient to satisfy some Karmic blood lust at work in the universe, in the curse that's already been taken away, etc.

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2008, 11:33:46 PM »
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The Holy Spirit knew who Barack was.   And yes, the details were there.  But as Jesus told Nathanael....

Can you give me some evidence of this?  websites?

So far I haven't seen anything I'm impressed with except a cult following.   He tried his best with the 'Yes we can' mantra but it kind of flopped at the victory speech.   Yes we can--what? And do we even want to?

 At a local middle school, two 8th graders played Mccain and Obama and gave speeches to the class right before the election.  When 'Obama' walked out on stage the crowd of middle schoolers went wild.  Just like Pavlov's dog, you no longer need the meat, just the bell.

Woof!


Offline Nathan

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2008, 06:34:30 PM »
Religion and politics, the two most volitile subjects to discuss between family and friends. And yet, we boldly encounter both on these forums. Sometimes I wonder just what really takes place with the prayers of the saints when it's an "either/or" outcome.

Being an Iowa resident, I am also a fan of the IOWA Hawkeyes. Not a very good one, if they're having a losing season . .I'm not really that interested. But this season they did rather well and are currently trying to figure out which bowl game they're going to be invited to attend.

A couple weeks ago, they played Penn State which was ranked #3 in the nation. I never got to watch the game, I really didn't think they had a prayer, but was greatly amused to hear they actually won it.

Now, I'm sure there were Christians in the stands that day who were fans of both teams. One side prayed for Penn State and they other prayed for Iowa . . .the outcome apparently must mean that Iowa is closer to God that Penn State?

Taking a quantum leap back in time, there was a search going out for the next king for Israel. The prophet Samuel was given the responsibility to search out this guy with God's leading. He goes to the house of Jesse and has all of Jesse's sons standing in front of him and he quickly sees the person of highest potential

1 Samuel 16
6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD's anointed stands here before the LORD."

7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

We assume a man is chosen by his speeches and history of what decisions he's made on the issues we feel most important. We have our own criteria of what someone should or shouldn't be to be our leader and by our own natural reasoning, we pray for or against the candidates, all the while, we believe we're doing God's work.

Eliab was the eldest son of Jesse, he was also the one that jumped David when he came down to bring food to his brothers while Goliath was on his little rampage. He had all the qualifications that one would assume was needed to be king of Israel. Even Samuel, the highest ranking prophet figured he was the guy. But the guy God had chosen wasn't even among those who were in the running.

Wouldn't it be cool if this kind of thing was presented at the beginning of the election process? It's not what the candidate thinks they have in them that God looks at . . .Then why would we? Obama's claim to fame was that change was coming . . . frankly, that comes with every president. I've yet to hear any president state that things are perfect the way they are and we're leaving everything just as it is.

I originally wasn't interested at all this year once it was clear who the top candidates were . . I didn't like either one of them either. And when Palin came on the scene . . .I could see how that "could" be God selecting another David . . and for all we know, this could very well still be that . .just not for this time around.

I'm not really interested in what they did or claim they will do. Because until they actually get into the oval office, they don't really have a clue what it's like to run an entire nation. Palin seemed to be a breath of fresh air . .not because she was a weathered politician with great experience. But instead, she was just the opposite . .she'd spent her years out in the back forty in another world almost, watching over the flock that was appointed to her and she'd killed a bear or two in her watch as well.

I'm not so sure we've seen the end of her . .but at the same time, righteousness cannot be legislated by government of men anyway. It was an interesting couple of weeks, I'm not all that thrilled about the outcome, but if God can use a donkey to speak to a stubborn, self-profiting prophet like Balaam, he can use anybody for his purposes, so we'll just have to see how things turn out.

It doesn't hurt to continue to pray for this nation regardless . . .yes?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2008, 06:42:27 PM »

Hi Nathan,

I should post my facebook notes on prayer here as it addresses that very issue.

In short my notes are a basic but not direct refutation to the traditional teaching of prayer.  Typically it can be believed (but not by everyone of course) that if we pray and "believe enough" or  "please god enough" then we will be able to steer the outcome of something by moving God to act on our behalf.


Basically if we have two sides praying for opposite things, then in our hearts we have to hope that those who pray for the opposite outcome believe "less" than we do.

There is no way that can be glorifying to God.   In short, scripture tells us to pray according to the will of God.  It tells us that because it also says that we basically do not know what we ought to pray for in the first place.

Facebook is blocked here at work, or I would already have posted them,  I will post them later this evening.



Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2009, 01:29:55 AM »
Even though I didn't vote for him (and there are various troublesome issues), I had actually (s/w grudgingly) started to have some favorable feelings about our new President...I also realize we're to have respect for those God has placed in authority.  However, today I'm actually feeling a little sick to my stomach...please read on...

"Today President Obama signed an executive order that will force tax-payers to pay for abortions. Here's how ABC News is reporting it:
"President Obama signed an executive order today reversing the ban that prohibits funding to international family planning groups that provide abortions . . ."
At the debate last year at Rick Warren's church (and elsewhere), Obama promised to support measures to reduce abortions. He's been in office for four days, and his first action vis a vis abortion ensures that abortions will increase worldwide. What's worse, he is making American taxpayers foot the bill for infanticide abroad.
Any "pro-life" person who is still willing to defend this president as a friend of the pro-life cause is delusional." dennyburk.com

Does anyone have any thoughts about the conflict on the spiritual and/or morality issue of paying tax money for this?  I know we're to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's"...but is there any limit to this, and any options besides moving out of the country or going to jail?  I guess in the U.S. we already have been paying for abortions, but this to me just brings it more to the forefront as it apparently broadens the likelihood of infanticide.  Taxes bother me anyway, the way that much of it is wasted, thrown into a black hole somewhere...and now this...not too happy about taxes today...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 01:49:57 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2009, 09:06:05 AM »
Does anyone have any thoughts about the conflict on the spiritual and/or morality issue of paying tax money for this?  I know we're to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's"...but is there any limit to this,
Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.

Quote
and any options besides moving out of the country or going to jail?  I guess in the U.S. we already have been paying for abortions, but this to me just brings it more to the forefront as it apparently broadens the likelihood of infanticide.  Taxes bother me anyway, the way that much of it is wasted, thrown into a black hole somewhere
I'm not from the US so I don't know its exact laws but my guess is that you can't wriggle out of taxes.
There are also strong pro life people in the Netherlands that didn't want to pay for the military. After long procedures they indeed don't have to pay the defence part of the taxes. Instead they pay a little extra for, say, healthcare.
But do you really think the defence budget dropped $200 and the healthcare rose $200?

Quote
At the debate last year at Rick Warren's church (and elsewhere), Obama promised to support measures to reduce abortions.
That's an easy one to wriggle out. Improving life standard and education usally reduces abortions. So my guess is his answer will be in that direction.
BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2009, 09:14:32 AM »

Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.

Can you expound upon this?  I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:

After long procedures they indeed don't have to pay the defence part of the taxes. Instead they pay a little extra for, say, healthcare.

Interesting...maybe there's some hope if enough people had enough nerve to challenge it.


BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?

Yes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 09:23:33 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2009, 09:37:14 AM »
Some  took issue with this statement in his inaugural address:

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers."

But, this remark made during his campaign seems much more ominous to me:

'We are no longer a Christian nation, if we ever were. We are a Jewish, Hindu and non-believing nation.'"

[reported in aol news]

When did we become a Jewish, Hindu, and non-believing nation?  I must have missed that.

It makes one wonder if the 'flub' was really a flub or an intentional gaff to allow for a retaking of the oath, memorialized in pictures, of him taking the oath without his hand on the Bible.  I mean really, two well paid men in very high positions, could not get one sentence right?

Taxes on the air you breathe under the bogus global warming is coming next.

Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2009, 09:59:33 AM »
I've s/w held back Molly.  But what I really think is, there's a lot of blindness operating over the past year or so...people who otherwise seem to have pretty good sense unable to see into the things such as you mention...I truly think God is blinding/veiling much of our nation...including many believers....not sure if it's judgment (as in giving us what we want, as Israel wanted a King), and/or hopefully He'll bring something good out of it (perhaps following judgment)...or just something He's going to fix for us...guess I've got to really believe that whatever it is He will bring good out the other side, but the concern is, what will judgment/this period be like?


"If My people...humble themselves...turn from their wicked ways...I will hear from Heaven and heal their land"...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2009, 10:09:53 AM »

Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.

Can you expound upon this?  I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:

Let me explain how I read that with a question:
a] Gods law: Abortion is sin.
b] Obamas law: Every woman should have at least 1 abortion in her life.

What is the higher law? A or B? Surely your answer is A.
Basicly I read "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" as follows.
Ceasar get's all he wants unless Ceasars demands clash with those of God.
In this case the abortion law of Ceasar Obama clashes with the abortion law of Ceasar God.

Ceasars jurisdiction is only valid in what he owns. The territory he owns.
But not Ceasar but God owns our lifes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 10:12:44 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2009, 10:20:37 AM »

BTW what's your defenition of abortion? 1 month, 1 week, 1 hour, 1 second?

Yes.
I guess you mean even a second is abortion.
Then according to some articles (I can find right now) millons of abortions take place in the USA on daily basis.
The articles are against my understanding of things; but then I'm not an MD...
Basicly the article states that anticonception pills don't prevent life but kill it very shortly after it started.
But that kinda off-topic in this thread.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2009, 10:27:22 AM »
To me WW, the question isn't as much of "time", but "has God already begun creating life"...IMO, that occurs within the first split-second...I'm not against contraception, preventing...but once it's begun, I just can't see how it's OK to end it.  Maybe I don't have the complete understanding here, but that's pretty clearly what I see right now.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: God has already Determined the Next President
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2009, 10:30:05 AM »

Life is not Ceasars. Life is Gods.

Can you expound upon this?  I've typically seen this scripture as meaning (generally) "obey your government (authority), give it respect"... :dontknow:

Let me explain how I read that with a question:
a] Gods law: Abortion is sin.
b] Obamas law: Every woman should have at least 1 abortion in her life.

What is the higher law? A or B? Surely your answer is A.
Basicly I read "render to Caesar what is Caesar's" as follows.
Ceasar get's all he wants unless Ceasars demands clash with those of God.
In this case the abortion law of Ceasar Obama clashes with the abortion law of Ceasar God.

Ceasars jurisdiction is only valid in what he owns. The territory he owns.
But not Ceasar but God owns our lifes.

OK, I like that reasoning, and I hope you're right...I'll be thinking about it some more, and maybe others can share their insight as well...thanks  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23