Gen.2:10-15) & (Rev.22:1-2) Through The Eyes Of A Child

[Roy Monis]

Gn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live  for the eon

Dear brother Paul

I do believe I have mislead you in this as I believe the Lord has corrected me on it, please read my more recent reply to this same question and disregard the one which says that God cast man out of the garden because he had corrupted himself. That is not true and I retract that, it was obviously the seed of the evil one that saw an opening and I fell for it.

Please accept my sincere apology.

Love

Roy   (UK).

[Nathan]

Roy, I'm gonna take a shot here at this because I really do sense your heart is in the right place, it's just that you're leaning on what your reading more than what God is actually been saying.  The division does actually come from God.  His word separates spirit from flesh .. .Jesus even stated that he'd come not to bring peace, but division as well.  The Word you read, I don't mean to sound offensive, but the truth is, the Bible you embrace is not the inspired word of God.  What it is, is a translation of the inspired word . . .the true Word of God is "in" you.  

The written word will affirm what the voice of the spiritual Word in you is saying.  So long as we truly are letting our spirits take the lead rather than our minds.  The mind will stand and point and claim what is right or what is wrong . . .but the spirit simply points to the Son.  This has been our problem in the church all along.  We reserve the right to pull another brother aside and tell them they're wrong . . .but all we're doing is drawing dividing lines at best, or, we're enforcing conformity and eventual death at worst.

We're not right and we're not wrong, we're simply in different places of maturity in our relationships with the Father.  If where I am is elementary to where you are, that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me juvenile.  

I personally believe there is a changing going on in the atmosphere of the church and it's creating spiritual earthquakes in us.  I beleive that up to now, the church has built it's belief system from a works-based mentality . . .the reason why I think that is because from Adam to now has been roughly 6,000 years, or 6 days . . .God labored for six and rested "in" the seventh.  Six days have literally passed and now, the message of the Sabbath is surfacing, replacing the message of the church.

Everything being loosed upon us now, is no longer from a laboring mind, but it's from the realm of the Rest of God . . .it's not coming through much study and deep concentration, it's coming through revelation from the Father because fo our intimacy with the Son.  This, I believe is why we're advised to hold on to things "loosely".  Because the days change in us and as they day changes from labor to rest, the rules of engagment change along with it.  What we learned to get us to where we are, are wonderful things to learn, but in order for us to enter into the truth in the Kingdom, we need to let go of those things because as great as they were, their source, for the most part, was birthed in days of labor, not rest.

So as great as the story is that you're sharing, it's a story from a day of laboring minds, the peace is in the Sabbath story . . .where the emphasis is no longer on "doing" works of light to project your relationship with the Father to others, but it's simply on "being" light . . .letting the light that's in you simply manifest through you . . .no works required anymore.

Zechariah 4 is a perfect example of this very thing.

Just my perspective of course, you have the ability to accept or reject it . . .just sharing what I see is all.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Gn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live  for the eon

Dear brother Paul

I do believe I have mislead you in this as I believe the Lord has corrected me on it, please read my more recent reply to this same question and disregard the one which says that God cast man out of the garden because he had corrupted himself. That is not true and I retract that, it was obviously the seed of the evil one that saw an opening and I fell for it.

Please accept my sincere apology.

Love

Roy   (UK).

Roy, I appreciate your heart and I accept your apology, just know that I honestly never felt you needed to apologize in the first place.

I read Nathans reply before I read your and for the most part I agree with him.  Iron sharpening Iron is what is happening here not something we need to apologize for.   It's not about right or wrong when it comes down to it.

In fact I would suggest that the biblical warning to go to a brother and correct him is more about sharing with one another so that can be exposed through the spirit rather than I as a person making the declaration that someone else is wrong.

If I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around.  Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass.

[Roy Monis]

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Dear sister Molly

Sorry it's taken so long to reply, but my internet server was down for quite some time and I haven't been able to get on the net. But by God's grace I'm here to respond.

First let me thank you for your kind encouragement.

Indeed the Word of God is a lamp unto the feet of all mankind and a light to their paths but sadly they do not comprehend it. Without it we who believe would be in complete darkness as the world is at present, and we thank God for His bountiful grace and mercy for the small ray of light that is breaking through.

Your responses are short but very insightful and thought provoking, I will try with God's help to deal with each of the two observations you make in turn.

I am human and fallible and have made some grave errors in some of my postings which I wish I could remove as they can mislead and be stumbling blocks. If you know of any method I can use to achieve this I would be very grateful. Now back to your post.

"Don't you think that if we use our intellect in His service, He will direct us to the right paths and make all things known to us"

Dear sister, I don't only think but am certain that if we use our intellect in His service He will disclose all to us, "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matt.7:7-12). 

But, understandably, there is a condition. You must ask through the right agency. There are two agents, seeds, planted in man's intellect as we saw in earlier postings dealing with the garden of Eden. There is God's seed, and there is Satan's seed. They are both plying for possession of our intellect. At the present time this is Satan's domain and Satan's seed is the occupant of that intellect. Now if we use our intellect with that seed in it, to ask for His favour it is hardly likely to be granted, , " 'A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, 'How have we despised Your name?' "You are presenting defiled food upon My altar. But you say, 'How have we defiled You?' In that you say, 'The table of the LORD is to be despised.' "But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts. "But now will you not entreat God's favor, that He may be gracious to us? With such an offering on your part, will He receive any of you kindly?" says the LORD of hosts." (Mal.":6-9).

If we want Him to grant our hearts desire, we must in all humility seek for Him, by answering the door to His knock,   'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."(Rev.3:20), and allow Him in, then in the secrecy of your inner chamber, ask of Him and He WILL grant all, I guarantee that "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.  (Matt.6:6).

I think it might be just a problem if we use our intellect in our own service.  But, God taught Adam language for a reason.Isaiah 42:16     
 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. Isaiah 42:16

That is God's word, it is sacred, it is infallible. God will certainly keep His word, a few chapters down we read, "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, (Isa.55:11).

The world uses the intellect solely for its own purpose, sister, but you, I and all our fellow brothers and sisters on this forum are not of this world, we are in it but not of it, we are of God. "They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn.4:5-6).

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also." (Jn.15:18-20).

This is pure conjecture. I believe God gave man language so he could communicate with his fellow man and help him as we are trying to do right here. In the case of His children, I would suggest that He is using us as instruments, on His behalf, to  lead the spiritually blind in paths they did not know of; to help bring light where there was darkness, to help straighten out those who were crooked (going wrong). Are these not the things that we are presently doing with His Seed in control?

We can use intellect in our own service for sure, that is what our gracious God has given it to us for, but there is a limit, it must be used with discretion. We must follow the example of all God's children down the generations especially that set by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. I can do nothing on My own initiative . As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." ( Jn.5:30)  If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative , but He sent Me." (Jn.8:42) For I did not speak on My own initiative , but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." (Jn.12:49-50). Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative , but the Father abiding in Me does His works"  (Jn.14:10) "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on My own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (Jn.16:13).

Jesus trusted His Father implicitly, we would do well to follow suit, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and do not lean on your own understanding" (Pro.3:5).

Ingratitude is rife in man. Most often when their request has been granted they forget even to say thank you before shutting the door again. We must allow the Spirit to come into our intellect, throw Satan's seed out, always give thanks and keep that door securely shut all the time. This is how our Lord in the form and nature of a mere man overcame His enemy. He constantly did the will of His Father and shut Satan completely out with the famous words "Get thee behind Me Satan." "…It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' (Matt.4:4)

If we can discern the difference between the Intellect of the world with Satan's seed in occupation and God's Holy Spirit outside our door, then we can exchange the Seed outside with the seed within, and leave Satan outside to do the knocking. For worldly matters we can very easily step outside, lock the door behind us, and attend to our worldly matters which will suffer no harm for the duration we are engaged with the Lord. When we have done with the world we can re-enter the safety of what is now God's domain and no longer that of Satan.

This sister is how and when we can use our intellect in service of the Lord to its maximum potential. We only have one God provided intellect, but sadly with two plying for possession. One good, one bad. The bad is in occupation so we must dislodge it and replace it with the good, and the Lord our God will help us to do that if we ask in a proper manner and with the correct Seed firmly within.

God bless you sister for your astute response as usual. I pray this will be of some help.

Love

Roy   (UK)

[Roy Monis]

In fact I would suggest that the biblical warning to go to a brother and correct him is more about sharing with one another so that can be exposed through the spirit rather than I as a person making the declaration that someone else is wrong.

If I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around.  Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass

Dear brother Paul

Thank you for your gracious response. I apologize for my reply being such a long one. I hope you do me the honour to read it fully and respond in like manner.

I agree with everything that you and Nathan have to say, and I have the deepest respect for your opinions (I will reply to Nathan's response later), but I'm afraid the whole discussion has got terribly mixed up. My previous topic "Dan.12:4" appeared to go astray so I opened this new thread with the intention of looking at it from a different perspective, "Through the eyes of a child. Gen.2:25)" 

As I have said earlier an old man's dream is as clear as the sun in a bright cloudless sky, when it comes; but when it comes to sharing it, as we are commanded to do, man makes a mess of it. I have agonized over your postings and tried to explain, but on every occasion, seemingly, made a mess of it. A clear example of, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25)

All things are of God. All wisdom, intellect, creation, all knowledge including that of good and evil, you and I, all belong to God and are of Him. Nothing exists outside of God. He commands and insists that He be obeyed. End of story.

My use of the word intellect earlier has caused confusion, as can be seen in sister Sarah's post. It wasn't intended to be taken in the light it was taken in.  So I cried out to the Lord and asked why He is giving me all this and not supplying the means to deliver it, and this I believe is His reply. It is in the form of an analogy.

Adam and Eve were created as innocent as new born babes, and God's free gift of intellect was planted in them with the knowledge of God, and God only. They were naked and unashamed. They had no knowledge of lust of the flesh or lust of the eyes or any other form of lust, they were innocent. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were notashamed." (Gen.2:25). God gave them licence to eat of any of the numerous trees in the garden that they desired, but commanded them to leave one particular tree, the one containing the knowledge of good and evil, well alone. "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."(Gen.2:16-17).

Now let us transfer this into the 21st century

Man is in the 21st century garden of Eden and God commands him saying, "From any book in the world's libraries you may study but from the Book that is in the middle of the garden, the Word of God which is closed by My specific command you may not study or you will surely die." (analogy only).

Back to Adam's Eden. 

But Satan says; now there's a thing, did God really say that and you believe Him? Don't believe that lie, you shall not die, in fact you will become like Him and know everything. You will be like Him and put Him out of business. That's what He is afraid of. Go ahead and eat and I'll prove it to you. And so man ate and brought death upon himself. "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' " The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."  (Gen.3:1-6)

Then man's eyes were opened and they realized that they were naked and could see all the goodies that lay in their loin area and they began to lust for the flesh that their eyes could see. And they became ashamed and covered those offensive parts with fig leaves. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."."   (Gen.3:7-10).

Now back to the 21st century garden of Eden.

Intellect belongs to God, given to man as a gift to be used for his survival and progress in matters of the world that He, God, has created for him. He can use it for whatever purpose he desires. It is good, it is very good, with it man can explore the depths of the sea, map the contours of the earth, walk on the moon, spread news round the world within seconds, clone sheep, send probes to distant planets, explore space itself. Oh yes! Man can do wonders with that intellect that God has so generously given him, It is good and we are grateful that God has been so gracious.

But man is not satisfied, he has become greedy and he wants more. So his mind goes to that forbidden Book. Why has God forbidden me from looking into it? What is in that Book that God does not want me to see? Is He afraid that if I find out I will become like Him and throw Him out as unwanted garbage? So let me use my powerful intellect that has so successfully got me to the moon to find out. 

For two thousand years now, man has been living with the biggest blunder of his entire existence. He has ignored the example set by those he professes to follow. The Apostles were untrained and illiterate so they couldn't read much less study the Scriptures. Paul a highly educated man in the Jewish religion was reduced to the intellect of a child within a few seconds, and never studied or consulted with any man to get his knowledge of God, yet we are accepting his writings today as the Word of God. Why? Jesus was illiterate yet He didn't study any Scriptures, but got all His knowledge from His Father by being obedient to His will. Why has man suddenly decided that it is necessary for him to probe in forbidden areas by studying the Scriptures?

These are the questions that weigh heavily on my mind and need answers and God is providing them for me and commanding that I share them. That is why I am on this site and on this board in the first place, to share all good things with you all. See if you can give me any answers contrary to those that I am receiving.

That's what studying the Scriptures does. Satan's seed in it concentrates one's mind on areas of the Word of God which are of little import and diverts it from the most important one of rebellion - ITSELF. It is a ploy in keeping with Satan himself.   "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess.2:3-14).

A few are not deceived and wisely decide to obey and leave the idea of studying God's Word alone, respecting what is His sole prerogative. But the many who are not satisfied continue to disobey and probe. Thereby challenging His Divine authority and trying to usurp His only begotten Son's sole right to worthiness and the key to unlock what He has commanded to be closed.   "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is  worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."  (Rev.5:2-5). Do you know any one with in your vicinity or for that matter anywhere in the world with those credentials, brother, I doubt it very much. Nothing short of Blatant rebellion!   

!  "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES." (Matt.7:22-23)

He is at the door, Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." (Rev.3:20).

He who has ears to hear,"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock...Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall." (Matt.7:24-27).

Love

Roy   (UK)

[Roy Monis]

Roy, I'm gonna take a shot here at this because I really do sense your heart is in the right place, it's just that you're leaning on what your reading more than what God is actually been saying.  The division does actually come from God.  His word separates spirit from flesh .. .Jesus even stated that he'd come not to bring peace, but division as well.  The Word you read, I don't mean to sound offensive, but the truth is, the Bible you embrace is not the inspired word of God.  What it is, is a translation of the inspired word . . .the true Word of God is "in" you. 

.

Dear brother Nathan

I am not offended, you rightly correct me in what you believe, and I appreciate what you are saying. But the Word of God I am reading does not appear to agree, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."  (2Tim.3:16-17). And,   But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).

Be that as it may, brother, but what you are saying is not what I am on about in this thread. Your post is steering the discussion toward the finer spiritual points of Scripture and away from what I see as the main culprit – Satan – whose seed, study of the Word of God is presently occupying the spiritual aspect of man's intellect. My prime purpose here is to warn my brethren of the mortal danger of allowing Satan's seed presently occupying the intellect from using it as a recruiting agent against God. Going off at a tangent is only playing into Satan's hand, if you follow what I mean.

If they are receiving the word as you say, ".it's not coming through much study and deep concentration, it's coming through revelation from the Father because fo our intimacy with the Son." Then I fully agree with you and direct my attention to those who don't receive it that way and try it through the medium of their intellectual power by studying God's Word. The only reservation I'd have to that statement would be in the use of the word study, my preference would be searching, and leave the word study, which is not a word used in Scripture except in the error ridden version of the KJV, out completely.

I am in full agreement with you and brother Paul on the deeper aspects of our spirituality, but my focus here is my neighbour's welfare in love. That is the message this thread was intended to convey and nothing else.  Just a danger warning, as it were (Daniel 12:4) and nothing else. And this I believe is why we have been at cross purposes.

Your whole post, along with brother Paul's, is a joy to read, and I agree with practically all of it. I agree that the Word causes division; those who accept and those who don't. But I'm not on about that. The division I'm referring to involves those who have accepted His Word, the believers. The cause of this particular division among believers is what I call Satan's seed – study –  of the Word of God. This applies only to believers. Talking about the message of the Sabbath and labouring minds is going into the finer details of the spiritual. This approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13).  I don't mean any offense in this it is not personal; when I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child and reasoned like a child. I was innocent and could not see beyond my immediate perspective, self. But now that I have grown up, LOVE takes precedence over all my childishness and extends to my brethren further a field. And it is them that I wish to alert to the grave danger of applying the power of the intellect to study His Word which has been closed by Almighty God's specific command.

Love

Roy    (UK)

[jabcat]

... "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."  (2Tim.3:16-17). And,   But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).

Amen.   "Forever, O LORD, Your word [LOGOS] is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

Logos; the given, written Word of God.

[Nathan]

I am not offended, you rightly correct me in what you believe, and I appreciate what you are saying. But the Word of God I am reading does not appear to agree, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."  (2Tim.3:16-17). And,   But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God " (2Pet.1:20-21).

While I appreciate your attempt to agree with me, it appears that you're accepting and rejecting at the same time.  You're not seeing what I'm saying here . . .I am fully aware of what the passage is saying, my issue is how it's being applied.  Scripture is inspired, I don't deny that at all . . .my issue is in two forms . .one, the translation is not inspired, only the Scripture . .and secondly, the interpretation isn't always inspired either.  I have no issue with Scripture being inspired bro, my issue is when we take a spiritual truth, which for me is ALL of Scripture, and we interpret it with our traducing (definition for devil) minds.

And by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you.  But your comments that state . . .

This approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13).  

Again, you compliment me while trying to dismantle what I said at the same time . . .  Why would you assume this is a self-based approach?  Like any other message, the reason it's shared out is so that it can be seen by others.  We bring each other into maturity through the inspriation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and relationships with the Father and one another.  If it can't be seen, or is simply rejected, I'm absolutely fine with it.  But as far as I'm concerned, the Father is drawing us all into a higher, more intimate relationship with him and with that comes a deeper understanding, a greater desire for truth over personal doctrines, and a willingness to accept the fact that what I've learned was necessary to get me to where I am, but possibly not so necessary to carry me into where I have yet to go.  Seeing things from a Sabbath Day perspective is so much different than what I once learned through the days of labor mentality.

For me, the passage you quoted is also about spiritual maturity.  For those who embrace the literal understanding, apply only the moral values and continue to struggle and reject the spiritual (inward) patterns that lie beneath the surface of the written word are not "wrong" as much as they are simply in a different level of maturity in their relationship with Christ.  When I was spiritually younger, my language was all about ministarial activities.  The laborings of the church, the necessity and emphasis on the gifts, the works-based, warfare-thinking mind . . .all of that, as far as I'm concerned is where 'when I was a child, I spoke as a child" comes into play. 

To "warn" another of their activity in their relationship is focusing on one's personal laboring to maintain the relationship.  But instead, if our message is to simply encourage others to pursue Christ and plant our own experiences in our quest for him along the way, like the revelational things we see in Scripture aside from the traditional learnings . . .for me, is much more beneficial than evoking fear through warning about a possible distraction.

Truth be told, the one you are warning us from . . .the devil, Satan . .all of that . .. as far as I'm concerned is us in the first place.  Devil = Traducer  . . .Satan = Adversary . . .both of these definitions give explanation to the carnal mind of every man.  My worst enemy is not some invisible spirit or entity that has hoards of little invisible imps at the ready to attack me at every corner . . .my worst enemy is my own mind.  When I subdue that, I become the conquorer Scripture speaks about . .because that battle has already been won . . .and it wasn't by me, it was by the Son.

Personal experience/point of view, yes, self-based?  I guess it would have to be if it's a personal experience, but what I'm learning is, this personal experience that I've been going through is very similar to other's that I've come in contact with . . .including this very forum . . .so even though it may be a new thing for you to see, I can't really package it into one ball and call it self-based in the context of how you have implied it to be.

[Roy Monis]

Amen.   "Forever, O LORD, Your word [LOGOS] is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

Logos; the given, written Word of God.

Dear brother Jabcat

Logos is the written word of God the Holy Scriptures, I agree, but it is not the Word. The Word is God, the only begotten Son of God, the begotten God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is Christ in the flesh. There is a difference. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.....No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him./color] (Jn.1:1-3, 18)

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

[jabcat]

Dear Brother Roy,

Hello.  First of all, I think you have a very deep respect for scripture.  Secondly, I don't disagree that Jesus is the Word.  I do agree.  He is the Word become flesh.  However, as I understand it, the Word becoming flesh does not negate or replace the Word expressed as pneuma or the Word as logos.  Again, IMO, the scripture Psalm 119:89 bears that out...Your WORD/LOGOS is settled in the heavens.  Scripture itself calls itself THE WORD, the written logos, and I don't think scripture would declare that if it weren't true.  In my opinion, they go together rather than exclude each other. 

Right now (maybe God will show me different later) I believe many now saying the logos is not God's Word is a deception to get people to minimize the authority of scripture.  Not saying everyone uses it that way (I DON'T BELIEVE YOU DO...THE SPIRIT AND CONTENT OF YOUR POSTS SUGGEST OTHERWISE) but IMO, many do.  They will say "well Jesus is the Word, we can do without the Bible...it's not really inspired or accurate anyway".  Seen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos.  But somehow they've "felt it, it feels right to their spirit or just makes sense to the intellect".   Shoot, I do it often, and often in error.   I also realize I misinterpret the meaning sometimes.  So summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial.  But I also want to know "what saith the Lord".  And while I'm at it  , I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos.  They will be an exact witness to each other.

I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God.  I realize I'm not right about everything, God will show me more day by day, but that's my  at this moment  .

[Paul Hazelwood]

I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God.  I realize I'm not right about everything, but that's my  .

I hear what your saying James, and not that you have accused me, but I do not need to whisper that God can grant us spiritual truths without reading the bible , I just know it is true.

The problem is when we focus so hard on exactly defining each word in scripture we then get in division rather than seeing a greater depth by joining that division in unity.

Between aionios and now reading a thread where reading a verse out of the CLV constitutes blasphemy,  its ridiculous.

[jabcat]

Brother Paul, you didn't cross my mind, promise.

I did go ahead and look this up, the "in the beginning was the Word" passage.  And "Word" there is logos, defined as;  logos  log'-os:  something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive;  whatever that all was, that's what was with God according to the Greek.  So again, IMO, Jesus being the Word doesn't mean there are no other aspects to the "Word of God".

Heading off Paul, will talk a little more about the rest of your post.  Again, though, you were not consciously in my cross-hairs.  I'll admit, while I was typing there was a gentleman that crossed my mind, he no longer posts here, hasn't for some time. 

Anyway, later, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Not a problem James, would not be offended either way, just pointing some things out.

[jabcat]

I know all don't agree, and that's between them and God.  I realize I'm not right about everything, but that's my  .

Between aionios and now reading a thread where reading a verse out of the CLV constitutes blasphemy,  its ridiculous.

LOL.

I agree, we are to strive for unity.  I also believe we are to contend for sound doctrine.  I think we both agree here that the problems can occur because what one thinks is sound doctrine, another thinks is blasphemy (or even "just not quite right"), and vice versa...then "we" struggle with each other about it.  There are many scriptures that indicate we are to study God's written Word...study to show yourself approved;  they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true, etc.  But we are also told to live peaceably with all men, as much as is possible.  And that bottom line, the Spirit will lead us into all truth.  I just think there's a balance, a healthy mix, a "taking all into account" that is worthwhile.  That's why (as well as God convicting me of my failures in that area) I personally believe it's a good thing to state an understanding, show why one believes that way, then let God reveal, correct, guide, etc. 

Thanks Paul, take care, James. 

[Roy Monis]

Hello.  First of all, I think you have a very deep respect for scripture.  Secondly, I don't disagree that Jesus is the Word.  I do agree.  He is the Word become flesh.  However, as I understand it, the Word becoming flesh does not negate or replace the Word expressed as pneuma or the Word as logos.  Again, IMO, the scripture Psalm 119:89 bears that out...Your WORD/LOGOS is settled in the heavens.  Scripture itself calls itself THE WORD, the written logos, and I don't think scripture would declare that if it weren't true.  In my opinion, they go together rather than exclude each other

. 

Dear brother jabcat

I agree with everything you say, Scripture for me also is infallible. Psalm 119.89, "Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven." This verse, from what I believe the Lord is saying to me, is confirmation of what the Apostle John says to establish the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2).

This is the Person of Christ/Word/the only begotten God/the Son of God, who is settled in the bosom of His Father "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18) There is no mention of Logos here. But the Logos is the written Word which was spoken by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the prophets of old, this is the Logos which we are reading in the Scriptures today, it is Scripture, it is the Holy Word of God.. This I believe to be the difference between the Word and the written Word/Logos.

I believe many now saying the logos is not God's Word is a deception to get people to minimize the authority of scripture

If what you believe is correct that does not surprise me in the least because God has blinded the eyes of the MANY with a deluding spirit. He is presently not choosing them. "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess.2:13-14).

Seen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos.  But somehow they've "felt it, it feels right to their spirit or just makes sense to the intellect".   Shoot, I do it often, and often in error.   I also realize I misinterpret the meaning sometimes.  So summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial.  But I also want to know "what saith the Lord".  And while I'm at it   , I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos.  They will be an exact witness to each other.

To answer this portion of your post I will refer you to a discussion my eyes happened to fall on between you and brother Paul Hazelwood, on 22nd June at 5.10 pm. .  "I think we both agree here that the problems can occur because what one thinks is sound doctrine, another thinks is blasphemy (or even "just not quite right"), and vice versa...then "we" struggle with each other about it.  There are many scriptures that indicate we are to study God's written Word...study to show yourself approved;  they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true, etc"

I can't quite determine who the author of those words is, you or Paul, but there in lies the problem. My contention is that the word STUDY as relating to God's Word is, as you put it, blasphemy, because it is a challenge to the Father's authority who specifically commanded the Book to be closed and sealed. That grave error has been compounded by man's futile attempt to claim worthiness and the licence to open what our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has the sole right to do. Theft by the back door sort of thing.

One part of the conversation is correct, the Bereans "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11). (Acts 17:11) They searched , they examined etc. but they did not STUDY them. They used the Scripture as we ought to use the Bible as a Holy History Book or a Holy Search Engine, like Google is in the world, but not to Study in order to probe into forbidden ground.

The word STUDY is an error and does not appear in any Bible other than the most error ridden versions of the KJV. Don't take my word for it, just check the little superscript at the top of the word in the text to prove it for yourself. The correct rendering of that misleading passage is, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15). There is only one reference to the word study and that is in the Book of Ezra and in it he was deternined to learn the Law which Israel had forgotten in their rottenness, other than that there is no other use of the word in the entire Scriptures. So it is very wrong and misleading to say that there are many references to it.

Information received from the theological cemetery (correction seminary), that is, information received via the intellect with Satan's seed installed is the cause of the confusion that you and Paul are experiencing. Shut Satan and his seed STUDY out and listen to God for a change and you'll see a different picture.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

[Roy Monis]

While I appreciate your attempt to agree with me, it appears that you're accepting and rejecting at the same time.  You're not seeing what I'm saying here . . .I am fully aware of what the passage is saying, my issue is how it's being applied.  Scripture is inspired, I don't deny that at all . . .my issue is in two forms . .one, the translation is not inspired, only the Scripture . .and secondly, the interpretation isn't always inspired either.  I have no issue with Scripture being inspired bro, my issue is when we take a spiritual truth, which for me is ALL of Scripture, and we interpret it with our traducing (definition for devil) minds.

Dear brother Nathan

I' beginning to think that you are a minister or some such thing, my brother, and that I have offended you in a number of ways, please forgive me if I have, it was not meant to give offensive. I will answer you quote by quote, but there are so many things that you have found fault with, it's going to take a lot of quotes for me to explain them all.

I am relieved to hear you say that "That all Scripture is the inspired Word of God" because on this one point at least we are of one mind. You say the translation is not inspired, well, do you have a translation that is, and can be verified? I only have, the same as you, the one translation right or wrong, and my implicit trust in the Holy Spirit within me to guide me to the truth. So where you distrust it, I trust it. That is my contention, brother, if we take a spiritual truth and try to interpret it with the carnal mind -intellect - presently in Satan's domain the world, we are certain to receive the answers from his seed within because his seed will naturally support man's challenge to God's authority. But I don't think you agree with me on this issue, which is fair enough. We are not trying to impose our beliefs on one another, just share them and discuss them.

I hope this answers your above quote?

And by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you.  But your comments that state

If one relies on the study of God's Word in any shape or form he WILL be beguiled. The only way to interpret Scripture is through reading, reading and waiting His good pleasure and trusting in him to deliver; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5). 

It is the way shown to us by example all through the Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, it is the way shown us by the Apostles, it is the way shown us by the Apostle Paul and it is the way shown us by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. So what further convincing do we need? Do we believe God or do we believe man?

If you go to the theological colleges for your understanding of God's Word, then you will be subjecting yourself to lies from Satan's seed, because they lean on their intellect which is occupied by the seed of the prince of this world - Satan. That seed will teach you how to challenge God through the medium of studying His Word with his interpretation of it.

If you want to know the truth you must go to the source of all truth - God. And that God is right inside you, all you have to do is open the door and let Him in and drive Satan out. You cannot entertain both in your intellect as the two cannot abide one another. The slightest attempt to study God's Word immediately shuts the Holy Spirit out and lets Satan in. "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." IPro.14:12 & 16:25).

The choice is not up to the individual. I am certainly no soul saver, the Lord does His own choosing and will bring His chosen to Him, Himself. He doesn't need my help or anyone else's as some seem to think, "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. "This I command you, that you love one another." (Jn.15:16-17).

I hope this answers the above quote?

And by your further explanation, it does appear that you and I are saying the same things . . . you seem to say that if one relies soley on their knowledge of Scripture through their personal studying of the Word, they can easily be beguiled . ..in which case I would also totally agree with you.  But your comments that state.

If one relies on the study of God's Word in any shape or form he WILL be beguiled. The only way to interpret Scripture is through reading, reading and waiting His good pleasure and trusting in him to deliver; "TRUST IN THE LORD WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART AND DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING " (Pro.3:5).  It is the way shown to us by example all through the Scriptures, Old and New Testaments; it is the shown us by Apostles; it is the Apostle shown us by Paul and it is the way shown us by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself. So what further convincing do we need? Do we believe God or do we believe man? "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25)  The choice is not up to the individual. I am certainly no soul saver, the Lord does His own choosing and will bring His chosen to Him, Himself. He doesn't need my help or anyone else's as some seem to think. "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. "This I command you, that you love one another." (Jn.15:16-17).

Seen it too many times, and again IMO, many of those folks end up teaching doctrines that a student of scripture can see are in direct opposition to the logos

That is the danger in the theological cemeteries they beguile people, they teach Satan's seed of rebellion which is the direct opposite to what the Scriptures say.

At this point I'll give you my experience of this in as few words as possible. I was at a prayer meeting and we were called upon to pray. The procedure was for one to stand and pray aloud.  This was the first time my wife and I were faced with this, to us, new and ridiculous procedure, as each one seemed to be waiting for their name to be mentioned, then they would mention that person when their turn came.

This was embarrassing to say the least not to mention unscriptural, and the man in charge was an Elim minister. When my turn came I asked to be excused.

That simple request seemed to ignite a time fuse that burst into what can only be described as wrath and for a moment I thought he was going to hit me with the Holy Book in his hand. "What are you trying to hide? Secrecy is of Satan it is darkness. .." The tirade appeared to be endless but eventually by God's grace he ran out of words, so I humbly said that I was only doing what the Lord was telling me to do and pointed him to, "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you." (Matt.6:5-6)

Once again the building shook and the response shocked me. "Are you trying to teach me? I have spent years at Bible college studying for my qualifications and you trying to teach me?  I know what it say in THERE but this is what I have been taught, this is what I believe and this is what I teach." Enough said, it was winter, so I helped my wife into her coat, put mine on and made straight for the door. This is the truth, we finished with churches altogether from that moment. 

But that bit of poetic license has taken us away from your topic, so let us return.

      So summarily, I am one that believes the Spirit is crucial.  But I also want to know "what saith the Lord".  And while I'm at it   , I also don't believe the Spirit will lead anyone into ANYTHING that is against the logos.  They will be an exact witness to each other

The Spirit will most certainly not lead anyone against His Word/Logos, I would stake my life on that. So if one feels any prompting in that direction, beware, Satan's on the prowl, for a free meal, waiting to see who he can devour, "Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world." (1Pet.5:8-9)

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

[Paul Hazelwood]

The word STUDY is an error and does not appear in any Bible other than the most error ridden versions of the KJV.

Hi Roy,

I see what you are saying and do not disagree entirely.  The word study is not what we should focus upon, but what is meant by the Greek and Hebrew words that the word study is translated from.


Perhaps, you could explain what you do with the bible if you do not study it.

[Beloved Servant]

                                                www.youtube.com/watch?v=OihvG607W-c&feature=related

[Nathan]

Hey Roy . . .
Not sure where you picked up on it at, but you're right, I'm a preacher.  But I'm not a "seasoned" one by way of university.  

I agree with all of your principles you've shared here . . .perhaps it's just the wording that causes the desire for clarifications.

[Roy Monis]

This approach is a worthy one for sharing and I am thankful to the pair of you for sharing it as it edifies the individual, though it is a very self based one. But from my perspective that is exactly what I believe Satan wants us to do, while he rakes in the harvest from a much larger field. "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13:11-13).

 

Dear brother Nathan

On re-reading the passage you quote, I admit self-based could be the wrong term to use because I'm sure that all who read your post were greatly edified as I was, please accept my apology.

We bring each other into maturity through the inspriation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and relationships with the Father and one another

Very true, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. I see it and I practice it, that is my purpose on this forum, to share, as it is yours.

But as far as I'm concerned, the Father is drawing us all into a higher, more intimate relationship with him and with that comes a deeper understanding, a greater desire for truth over personal doctrines,

On that I agree wholeheartedly as well, no problem there.

and a willingness to accept the fact that what I've learned was necessary to get me to where I am, but possibly not so necessary to carry me into where I have yet to go.

Here comes the sticky bit. What have you learned to get you where you are? And where did you get the knowledge you have from? Was it through Bible college or personal study of the Word of God? Or was it by just asking, trusting and waiting on the Spirit to give you the knowledge you have? In short was it a complete trust in God or the word of man in some college or your own intellect? Study of the Word of God will get you nowhere, you will be deceived because he is very good at that.

So if you have derived your knowledge that way, then you are probably in the wrong place and not where you want to be or think you are, "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN BUT ITS END IS THE WAY OF DEATH." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25).   

Trust in man could be fatal, "The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer.17:9).    ).  "Jehovah looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek after God. They are all gone aside; they are together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon Jehovah?" (Ps.14:2-4).        "Beware of the false prophets,who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."  (Matt.7:15-16).      "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."  (1Jn.2:18-19)).   "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." (1Jn.2:26-27).

There are dozens of more examples where these come from, brother, they can't all be wrong.

How much did your Bible college tuition cost, brother? It should have cost you nothing other than your keep. But I doubt that this was the case.

Where did the Lord's word on this get lost I wonder? "   "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give." (Matt.10:8)  Makes you think brother, does it not? God gives all freely to man, while man takes all even from the poor, ever so freely from his fellow man? How many dead have you seen these mentors raise? And why have they not been able to raise them? God alone can raise the dead, Satan can't, there in is your answer.

You talk about Sabbath Day perspective and labour mentality, brother, but I can stake my life on it this is not of a labour mentality. It comes to all in the mature vision of Love, and Love conquers all, the rest are put away as childish toys. This is the area which I believe may be causing some offence, as such, where none was intended. I also believe that it has been taken in the wrong light.

For me, talk of tongues, prophesy, Sabbath Day perspective and labour mentality are things of the past – childrens' toys of the past confined to memory – now I am an adult and I look at things with the eyes of an adult, through the eyes of Love which covers all. I am still a juvenile in that area, but with the faith that I have from childhood and hope, I press on with God's help toward the final goal. Faith, Hope and Love as the Word of God says. 

When sister Rose sent me an admonition in the form of a Scriptural verse, "for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." (Jas.1:20) it immediately struck me to the bone and I knew it was the Spirit convicting me, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb.4:12) so I went through all my posts and found three brothers whom I may have offended and apologized unreservedly. This is how the Spirit works, and from my reading of your post, I believe He has convicted you for some reason of which I am unaware and only you can search for. Search for, not study, brother.

Our ultimate aim is - salvation - and salvation comes through the works of faith, not through empty talk of tongues, prophesy or works of the flesh and such. They were good in their day but when adulthood comes we put away the toys and put on the new self - Love. It is only then that we truly begin to see a larger picture of what truths God wishes to reveal to us. We cannot do it of our own accord regardless of how brilliant we are or how famous the college we studied in. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph.2:8-9.  This is not speaking of the works of faith but purely of the flesh. Only God can do it for us in His own good pleasure.

"…seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;  for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."  (2Pet.1:13-14). 

God says that these are the works of faith that get you where you want to go - salvation, not where you don't want to go. Is it not time to put away all the childish things and start to obey Him by doing the works of faith He requires of us, by putting all lusts of the flesh and of the world aside and concentrating on Him and living in accord to His rules, mentioned above? We don't need to labour over anything, just live a normal life in purity of mind and body.

Please don't read anything wrong into this. It comes in the true Spirit of Love to you as my brother in Christ Jesus.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

PS…..I do believe we are seeing the same thing, but travelling to it by different roads, yours through your intellect but mine purely in a complete and utter trust in God. That is the only difference.

[Nathan]

Roy, Roy, Roy . . . .why on earth are you supposing I'm embracing intellect over relationship???  My Gosh, I preach and live just the opposite bro!  And you also either assume or misunderstand that I've been in some sort of Bible College . . .I have not.  What I was refering to about letting go of what got me here is from my religious past.  I didn't originally teach and preach from experience, I first would preach what I was taught to preach, not what I expereinced for myself, but what I "learned".  And there is "some" (little) benefit to logic and reasoning, but my whole persona now is that we NOT depend on what we know from knowledge, but what we see through revelational relationship with the Father. 

Knowledge of the written word leads you to truth, experience in the Living Word ushers that Truth into you.  We're saying the same things again.

[Roy Monis]

I hear what your saying James, and not that you have accused me, but I do not need to whisper that God can grant us spiritual truths without reading the bible , I just know it is true.

The problem is when we focus so hard on exactly defining each word in scripture we then get in division rather than seeing a greater depth by joining that division in unity.

Dear brother Paul

Forgive me for butting in but I have to express how firmly I agree with you. Spiritual truths can come without reading the Bible, but they could not have been there in the first place if you had not read your Bible at some time, so it cannot be ruled out. But what you say is most certainly true and I can vouch for that.

Hard concentration on words and phrases in the Bible I call studying, as it involves the full power of the intellect, and the intellect being of the world is controlled by the ruler of this world, Satan. So the information we get from that source is bound to be flawed, and designed by him to cause division and strife within the body of Christ.

Love is of God. Love is God. This comes to all in love

Roy   (UK)

[Roy Monis]

 

did go ahead and look this up, the "in the beginning was the Word" passage.  And "Word" there is logos, defined as;  logos  log'-os:  something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive;  whatever that all was, that's what was with God according to the Greek.  So again, IMO, Jesus being the Word doesn't mean there are no other aspects to the "Word of God".

Dear brother jabcat

I believe, from your dialogue with brother Paul I gather your name is James, so may I also be granted the privilige to address you as such?

Forgive me for evesdropping on your discussion with brother Paul. That is exactly what I meant in my recent post to you.  Jesus Christ is the Word, but the other aspect of the Word is the written or spoken word/Logos. This is the Word spoken by Jehovah who was Christ/Word at the command of His Father.

Love is of God..... Love is God...... This comes to all with love

Roy   (UK)

[Roy Monis]

If I believe I am right and you are wrong, what happens if I have only convinced myself of that and it is the other way around.  Well, coming to each other in the spirit of sharing will uncover that in love, not accusation. That rubs across and takes off a little dullness from each person at each pass

Dear brother Paul

You are quite right, it is all about sharing and that is what you, I and everyone else on this forum is doing - sharing what they believe God is disclosing to them. That is what I'm doing when I reply, I'm not trying to accuse or convince anyone, only God has the right to do that.

The thread is a controversial one and not all will see the point or agree. But when I'm questioned about some aspect of my post I just express my opinion on it. It is up to the individual to please themselves whether they agree or disagree and that is fair enough. I don't argue about it but simply express the way I believe the Spirit is directing me. As long as I believe it is right it matters not what others believe, I'm just sharing. And that is fair enough, don't you think?

    Love is of God……. Love is God……. This comes to all in love


Roy   (UK)

[Nathan]

yup, yup, yup.